Do you still support Ken Holland and Mike Babcock?

[JmanWingsFan]

So, Jason Williams was a necessary signing? Todd Bertuzzi, Mikael Samuelsson and Dan Cleary were necessary?

This is a strawman argument. I'm not talking about Todd Bertuzzi, who's been a very good player for the wings. I'm not talking about Mikael Samulesson. I'm not talking about Dan Cleary, whom I disagreed with resigning. I'm talking about 2009. In 2009 our farm system sucked and we were way up against the cap. UNTIL ANYONE CAN PROVIDE ME WITH SPECIFIC VIABLE ALTERNATIVES, ANY COMMENT ON HOW HOLLAND SCREWED UP IN 2009 BY SIGNING VETS IS AUTOMATICALLY INVALIDATED.

Back in '09 we sent down Helm, Leino and Ericsson.

Helm played 75 games. Leino sucked and his attitude sucked and he was rightly punted off the team. Ericsson played and sucked big time that year. C'mon dude, you're reaching.

Holland can manage better.

How do you know? You don't even know any viable alternatives relevant to when he made those moves.

 

[Winger98]

there are a bunch of vets looking for roster spots at the end of every summer that would argue against the idea of the supply of vets being exhausted.

 

[Heaton]

How do you know? You don't even know any viable alternatives relevant to when he made those moves.

First of all, I thought you meant 2008-2009, not 2009-2010, so that's different. Secondly, no one knows what Holland could've or could not have done. That does not make an argument invalid if the things he DID do were not up to par.

How do you know Holland couldn't have traded for someone during that year? We don't. If you want to say the best option the Wings had was to sign Jason Williams, go ahead.

 

[DarkReign]

Babcock is great. Holland irks me at this stage. Scouting department is still unbelievable, but this dreadful loyalty to deteriorating veterans has gone fully over the cliff of logic.

 

[Chance on Chance]

It'll be interesting to see how many young guys we have on the team the next 2 years. Copied from an older thread

Gustav Nyquist, 1-year or 2 NHL-games
Riley Sheahan, 1-year or 136 NHL-games
Adam Almquist, 1-year or 138 NHL-games
Andrej Nestrasil, 1-year or 138 NHL-games
Landon Ferraro, 1-year or 143 NHL-games
Mitchell Callahan, 1-year or 143 NHL-games
Louis-Marc Aubry, 1-year or 143 NHL-games
Gleason Fournier, 1-year or 143 NHL-games

Exempt from waivers for 2-season:

Dan DeKeyser, 2-years or 47 NHL-games
Max Nicastro, 2-years or 60 NHL-games
Calle Järnkrok, 2-years or 69 NHL-games
Tomas Jurco, 2-years or 138 NHL-games
Teemu Pulkkinen, 2-years or 138 NHL-games

Thats a lot of decisions to make in the next few years. 7 guys plus Tatar (I didnt include Danny D) that have the ability to make the team in the next 2 years.

 

[Xvash2]

I think that the over-ripening idea is a problem in that it actually inhibits long-term development of players. Datsyuk and Zetterberg both entered the team straight out of Europe, never setting foot in Adirondrack/Grand Rapids. Prior to coming over, Datsyuk put up 22 points in 34 games in RSL. Prior to coming over, Zetterberg put up 32 points in 48 games in the Elitserien. These are similar numbers to the kind of production we see out of prospects coming over now, with Jarnkork having a similar 42 in 53 with Brynas last season and Pulkinnen putting up 128 points over a career of 185 games in SM-Liiga.

Would D and Z make the Wings these days if they were prospects now? No. They wouldn't even be on a billing. They would be in the AHL "ripening" instead of being Calder contestants their rookie years. Their roster spots would be given guys like Brent Gilchrist. No, we are not developing top six prospects here, not any more. We are developing yet another Stacey Roest.

 

[Retire91]

I think they are both talented but their strategies are out of steam. They used to load up the team with veterans still in their prime. They didn't sign washed up plug players to filk key roles. That was unheard of. Now they keep signing people well past their prime and that quincey trade made no sense for the team's future. Holland is grasping in desperation now to keep making the playoffs at the sacrifice of the future and the future is Calgary 2.0.

Any armchair GM in the world can see cleary where this is going.

 

[newfy]

The fact that Nyquist who was really good in the playoffs is back in the AHL is a joke.

I understand if he was terrible defensively, but hes actually pretty good. I would understand if he wasnt able to provide a lot to the team but he would be in the top 6 of offensive players on the team. Hes 24 now and has dominated his league 2 full years, the fact that hes back in the AHL is ridiculous.

I understand bringing back one of Bert or Cleary because you know what youre gonna get. But at some point you have to be like, wow we've got a lot of prospects coming up that have NHL futures in 2 years we should be able to count on at least one or 2 of them

 

[Orthodox Caveman]

Well yeah I support my team!

I thought Holland getting Alfredsson and Weiss was great. Then he brings back Dan Cleary. Now I don't hate Dan Cleary as much as others but at some point that spot needs to go to a younger upcoming player. Nyquist was one of the Wings best players last postseason, him and Tatar need to play full seasons in the bottom 6. Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't going to be our top players 6-7 years down the line. It's time to reload.

Regarding Babcock, I can't really fault him. Holland is the one who puts the team together. If Nyquist and Tatar are in our bottom 6, then it really doesn't matter what combinations Babcock puts together cause we have some new blood making that transition, it's happening now with our defensemen and now it needs to happen with our forwards.

They need to drop the veteran fetish, our top 6 sans Abdelkader is all veterans.

 

[Roy S]

I think that the over-ripening idea is a problem in that it actually inhibits long-term development of players. Datsyuk and Zetterberg both entered the team straight out of Europe, never setting foot in Adirondrack/Grand Rapids. Prior to coming over, Datsyuk put up 22 points in 34 games in RSL. Prior to coming over, Zetterberg put up 32 points in 48 games in the Elitserien. These are similar numbers to the kind of production we see out of prospects coming over now, with Jarnkork having a similar 42 in 53 with Brynas last season and Pulkinnen putting up 128 points over a career of 185 games in SM-Liiga.

Would D and Z make the Wings these days if they were prospects now? No. They wouldn't even be on a billing. They would be in the AHL "ripening" instead of being Calder contestants their rookie years. Their roster spots would be given guys like Brent Gilchrist. No, we are not developing top six prospects here, not any more. We are developing yet another Stacey Roest.

Zetterberg played on the Swedish Olympic team before he ever set foot on the Wings roster. If that isn't being "over-riped" or whatever, then I don't know what is.

Both Z and D would be on the team today if they were rookies- they both produced at a half a point a game clip or better almost immediately. Room hasn't specifically been made for Nyquist in part because he only has 18 points in 58 career games- which is a scoring clip a touch better than guys like Drew Miller produce and without the the dependable PK play.

Management views that they'd probably get similar point production and overall play from Bert and Sammy in a bottom 6 role and an argument could certainly be made that is a logical position given their track records. Thus, they'd rather keep the depth they have for when the inevitable bout of injuries strike rather than needlessly toss depth away for what would likely be very similar production. Neither Nyquist or Tatar have set the world on fire when they've played and their play will probably be more on par with what Flip and Hudler produced in 06-07 than what Z and D accomplished in their full rookie seasons.

 

[KJoe88]

They still have my support, but it's starting to dwindle due to the Cleary and Tatar/Nyquist situations.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

no one knows what Holland could've or could not have done. That does not make an argument invalid if the things he DID do were not up to par.

That's such a cop-out. Yes, you can get a very big idea of all possible moves by looking at the FA Market and the trade market relevant to the available cap space you have. While we'll never know the true extent of the trade market, if you don't have any cap space to burn on such a trade, there's no point in making it since it would have to be a sideways move, or a move that tears up your core (which a majority of cap space will be invested into).

How do you know Holland couldn't have traded for someone during that year? We don't. If you want to say the best option the Wings had was to sign Jason Williams, go ahead.

How do I know? Our core was already locked up and taking up a majority of our cap space. I don't have to know the actual trade market. Any significant move would have had to involve tearing up our core for cheap young talent. What's the point of that when you already have a functioning core that is two years removed from a cup, and a year removed from its second straight appearance in the Stanley Cup finals? You just lost Hossa, Hudler, and Samuelsson. Why tear it up even more, especially when your farm system sucks? Why make a lateral move? Where has that gotten Paul Holmgren? You keep your core together. At that point, because of the cap crunch, all you can afford are aging vets who will sign for $500,000-$1,000,000. It wasn't because of this mythical vet fetish that Holland has. It was a necessary evil in order to have a 23 man roster under the salary cap. Holland can't control his players getting more expensive.

 

[Heaton]

That's such a cop-out. Yes, you can get a very big idea of all possible moves by looking at the FA Market and the trade market relevant to the available cap space you have. While we'll never know the true extent of the trade market, if you don't have any cap space to burn on such a trade, there's no point in making it since it would have to be a sideways move, or a move that tears up your core (which a majority of cap space will be invested into).


How do I know? Our core was already locked up and taking up a majority of our cap space. I don't have to know the actual trade market. Any significant move would have had to involve tearing up our core for cheap young talent. What's the point of that when you already have a functioning core that is two years removed from a cup, and a year removed from its second straight appearance in the Stanley Cup finals? You just lost Hossa, Hudler, and Samuelsson. Why tear it up even more, especially when your farm system sucks? Why make a lateral move? Where has that gotten Paul Holmgren? You keep your core together. At that point, because of the cap crunch, all you can afford are aging vets who will sign for $500,000-$1,000,000. It wasn't because of this mythical vet fetish that Holland has. It was a necessary evil in order to have a 23 man roster under the salary cap. Holland can't control his players getting more expensive.

OK, you think Holland has done everything possible to make this team better. I don't, you're not going to convince me otherwise.

 

[Frozen Fiend]

What's the explanation on the Cleary signing? Nyquist and Tatar are both 3x better than him. What's more is we already have more than enough defensive forwards on the team.

This is poor asset management. These guys are our future and management is giving them the finger.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

OK, you think Holland has done everything possible to make this team better. I don't, you're not going to convince me otherwise.

I think the more important thing at least as I have read it is you don't think Holland should be fired. So are you against an extension?

That is basically where I fall on the opposite end of the spectrum as a guy that likes Holland more than Babcock. I don't think Babs should be ushered out the door right away, but I am not in a hurry to extend him right now.

A part of this discussion also took a different feel when Jim Nill ran out of the office and took some of our guys with him. I mean is Martin ready to handle this team? Can we outright steal somebody like we are Toronto, I mean can we go to Nashville and take Poile? I would be interested to know, that has been a Ilitch strategy in the past maybe his son sees something similar.

But Babcock has more internal pressure within the organization. If Blashill starts rocking the AHL again this year, there is something to talk about. In fact with the U of M rumors that swirl every once in a while, we are not sure Babcock himself wants an extension.

I don't advocate firing either even if I am currently dispirited with Babcock, the reality is when looking at the market each guy right now would be hard to replace. However, Blashill appears to be a real candidate and I think it is easier to find good coaches than it is good GMs just from watching the league for 30 years.

 

[Heaton]

If Holland re-signs Bertuzzi and Cleary after this season while not making room for Nyquist or Tatar in a more permanent role, I am going to find it very hard to believe in anything he's selling.

He talks about modeling himself after the New England Patriots, he couldn't be further from how the Pats do it. Know what happened when their best (arguably) defensive lineman (Richard Seymour) who helped them win 3 Superbowls got a little older and over priced? Traded. I realize football and hockey are different, but Belichek and his GM find room for rookies, they find out the needs of the team and manage the cap almost perfectly. They get their core, keep them and get rid of the overpriced pieces, even if they still are perfoming and they STILL compete for the championship. Holland doesn't do that. He keeps the older, overpriced pieces when they're not worth their contract and doesn't make room for the younger prospects until they're a few years away from making actual money. It's just bad management.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

You think Sammy won't get brought back too if he has a half way decent season? Just give Holland the tiniest of excuses to bring back a veteran and he will bring him back.

Odds of each player coming back

Cleary - 90%
Bert - 45%
Sammy - 30%

I bet Holland printed out Sammy's new contract after he scored last night.

Which young player is guaranteed a spot next year? Nyquist and Tatar? After that? Are there any prospects on the last year of being able to avoid waivers? If not, what evidence is there to suggest he won't let them go?

The guy already mentioned working out a more long term contract with Dan Cleary. The words "long", "term" and "contract" should never be used to bring up Dan Cleary.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If Holland re-signs Bertuzzi and Cleary after this season while not making room for Nyquist or Tatar in a more permanent role, I am going to find it very hard to believe in anything he's selling.

He talks about modeling himself after the New England Patriots, he couldn't be further from how the Pats do it. Know what happened when their best (arguably) defensive lineman (Richard Seymour) who helped them win 3 Superbowls got a little older and over priced? Traded. I realize football and hockey are different, but Belichek and his GM find room for rookies, they find out the needs of the team and manage the cap almost perfectly. They get their core, keep them and get rid of the overpriced pieces, even if they still are perfoming and they STILL compete for the championship. Holland doesn't do that. He keeps the older, overpriced pieces when they're not worth their contract and doesn't make room for the younger prospects until they're a few years away from making actual money. It's just bad management.

Well for those that target Holland defenders about living off past accomplishments, the Patriots are a perfect example. Been a long time since they won if you really look at it. They make the playoffs still, but they aren't what they once were.

I understand what you are getting at there, but no team has much loyalty in Football so it is kind of rough to pick that sport.

 

[Flowah]

If Holland re-signs Bertuzzi and Cleary after this season while not making room for Nyquist or Tatar in a more permanent role, I am going to find it very hard to believe in anything he's selling.

What about Sammy, Eaves, Alfie?

All those guys are supposed to come off the books next year. I hope they do.

 

[Heaton]

What about Sammy, Eaves, Alfie?

All those guys are supposed to come off the books next year. I hope they do.

I'm fine with Alfredsson staying, I just don't think Holland will re-sign Samuleson or Eaves, so I just didn't mention them. But Bert and Cleary? I'm positive they'll be back.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Well for those that target Holland defenders about living off past accomplishments, the Patriots are a perfect example. Been a long time since they won if you really look at it. They make the playoffs still, but they aren't what they once were.

I understand what you are getting at there, but no team has much loyalty in Football so it is kind of rough to pick that sport.

Loyalty in modern sports is a one way ticket to mediocrity. Each sport is a business and every other business tries to get rid of their older employees when the dollars don't add up in favor of the company employing him or her.

Enjoy that gold watch and don't forget that you can now DVR every episode of Matlock and Murder She Wrote.

 

[Brick Top]

OK, you think Holland has done everything possible to make this team better. I don't, you're not going to convince me otherwise.

Count me in the same camp that would be difficult/impossible to convince otherwise.

It sure seems that Kenny bringing Cleary back only added to the logjam at forward and actually made the team worse this season by taking a 3rd line/2nd PP spot away from Tatar or Nyquist.

Sure, Holland doesn't fill out the lineup card for each game, but he knew just like the rest of us that bringing back Run DFC to Babcock is like handing 82 heroin-filled syringes to a junkie... there's going to be some heavy usage going on

And God forbid the hints about Danny playing until he's 38/39 that Holland dropped after he signed end up result in an extension after this season... if that happens, then Kenny would making each of those Wings teams worse.

So there's that, I guess

 

[Vladdy84]

You think Sammy won't get brought back too if he has a half way decent season? Just give Holland the tiniest of excuses to bring back a veteran and he will bring him back.

Odds of each player coming back

Cleary - 90%
Bert - 45%
Sammy - 30%

I bet Holland printed out Sammy's new contract after he scored last night.

Which young player is guaranteed a spot next year? Nyquist and Tatar? After that? Are there any prospects on the last year of being able to avoid waivers? If not, what evidence is there to suggest he won't let them go?

The guy already mentioned working out a more long term contract with Dan Cleary. The words "long", "term" and "contract" should never be used to bring up Dan Cleary.

Cleary: 98%
Bert: 20%
Sammy: 1%

 

[Chance on Chance]

What about Sammy, Eaves, Alfie?

All those guys are supposed to come off the books next year. I hope they do.

I posted about it earlier but we have 7 forwards in the next 3 years that won't be able to clear waivers and good ones too that have a real hence of making it in the nhl

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Loyalty in modern sports is a one way ticket to mediocrity. Each sport is a business and every other business tries to get rid of their older employees when the dollars don't add up in favor of the company employing him or her.

Enjoy that gold watch and don't forget that you can now DVR every episode of Matlock and Murder She Wrote.

I have been pretty against some of these older guys signings and agree Holland needs to get more ruthless. The Cleary decision and Sammy signing were the most disappointed I have been with him during his GM tenure, third would be trading for Wendel Clark or the Roberta Lang trade.