Do you still support Ken Holland and Mike Babcock?

[Vladdy84]

You can minimize Babcock's stupidity by not giving him players like Sammy and Cleary.

Please refer to my fat and slow kids in honey example.

Holland wants to sign old and washed up veterans. He is the reason America's assisted living communities look like they were abandoned.

Stop signing washed up garbage and the coach who has an obsession with pieces of gritty crap won't be able to play them.

Coaches coach what the GM gives them. Holland has ignored Babcock before. Babcock asked for top six help after they lost to the Sharks the second time and Holland gave him nothing. There isn't any reason why he can't ignore him now.

Why won't Babcock play top 6 talent in Nyquist and Tatar? I still think it was a mistake not to go hard after Semin and Grabo. Didn't have to give up anything to get them.

 

[redwings85]

They know what they are doing.

We do not.

They have the job(s)

We do not.

I believe in them, they know what they want for this team.

 

[Vladdy84]

They know what they are doing.

We do not.

They have the job(s)

We do not.

I believe in them, they know what they want for this team.

And what is that? Rely on Dats, Z and Howard carrying the team on their backs just to get in because "once you get in anything can happen?"

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Why won't Babcock play top 6 talent in Nyquist and Tatar? I still think it was a mistake not to go hard after Semin and Grabo. Didn't have to give up anything to get them.

I guess that would be a point I am wondering about, now many have said it is time for both to leave. But for those defending Babcock with look what Holland gives him and Holland should save Babcock from himself, well if Babcock is truly the best coach in the league, why are we saving him from himself? Shouldn't he know better, doesn't that weaken the argument about just how smart he truly is?

Babcock is the guy putting Tatar in the press box, he is on the roster.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I guess that would be a point I am wondering about, now many have said it is time for both to leave. But for those defending Babcock with look what Holland gives him and Holland should save Babcock from himself, well if Babcock is truly the best coach in the league, why are we saving him from himself? Shouldn't he know better, doesn't that weaken the argument about just how smart he truly is?

Babcock is the guy putting Tatar in the press box, he is on the roster.

I think the last couple of years have definitely proven that Babcock is not without his flaws.

I think he is a good coach, but not the best coach in the NHL. He can maximize the talent of a cup contending team, but developmental coaching just doesn't look like something he is very good at.

 

[Vladdy84]

I guess that would be a point I am wondering about, now many have said it is time for both to leave. But for those defending Babcock with look what Holland gives him and Holland should save Babcock from himself, well if Babcock is truly the best coach in the league, why are we saving him from himself? Shouldn't he know better, doesn't that weaken the argument about just how smart he truly is?

Babcock is the guy putting Tatar in the press box, he is on the roster.

And I know we can debate the Cleary signing all we want and ultimately put it on Holland because he's the GM. But it's my opinion that Babcock really pushed for it. Holland made an offer initially, Cleary rejected it and Holland moved on. What does Cleary bring that players like Bert, Sammy and Miller don't bring? I don't buy the leadership angle at all. Z, Kronwall, Datsyuk, Bert, Howard and Alfie provide leadership. If any other leadership is needed, that's sad. That's on the coach. As far as I'm concerned, Babcock is responsible just as much as Holland for Nyquist being in GR.

 

[Mount Royal]

So you don't have any problems with the lineup decisions or second PP unit?

I don't think either guy is making optimal decisions, or even adequately optimal.

I think that as long as we're winning, I'm good with whoever he ices.

Do I want the kids to play? Of course. Are we winning without them? Yes? I'll be patient.

 

[jaster]

I think that as long as we're winning, I'm good with whoever he ices.

Do I want the kids to play? Of course. Are we winning without them? Yes? I'll be patient.

Yeah, this is where I'm at.

I'm as disappointed as anyone about Nyquist being in GR, but I apparently have the added perspective of realizing this is most likely a short-term frustration and, in the grand scheme of things, not really a big deal. We're at game #2 of the season. Throttle back, people

 

[Vladdy84]

I think that as long as we're winning, I'm good with whoever he ices.

Do I want the kids to play? Of course. Are we winning without them? Yes? I'll be patient.

It's all about expectations. The Wings are blessed to have players like Datsyuk and Z. It's been upsetting the past couple seasons to not go further with them. The Wings set a high standard and have not lived up to it lately. A lot of us don't wanna waste the last couple years of Dats and Z as just getting in and making it to the 2nd round. There have been plenty of opportunities to improve this team immensely through both free agency and implementing young, hungry and skilled talent. It hasn't happened. I'm in, I'll root for the team no matter what. I just expect a more progressive approach.

 

[Roy S]

For some perspective in terms of promoting prospects, since 09-10, or over the last 5 seasons, the Wings have added 12 prospects or undrafted free agents (Howard, Ericcsson, Helm, Abdelkader, Kindl, Emmerton, Smith, Lashoff, Tatar, Dekeyser, Anderrsson and Mrazek) to their current active roster +LTIR. And that doesn't include Nyqyist who has played 58 career regular season and playoff games and played in each of the last two postseasons. They'll also likely add, at the very least, Nyquist and Sheahan next season (likely at the expense of Emmerton) and will have Jarnkrok, Jurco, Sproul and Ouellet knocking on the door the following season.

They basically promoted 2 to 3 players a year to complimentary/ bench roles and turned over half the roster in the last 5 seasons with prospects.

 

[Mount Royal]

It's all about expectations. The Wings are blessed to have players like Datsyuk and Z. It's been upsetting the past couple seasons to not go further with them. The Wings set a high standard and have not lived up to it lately. A lot of us don't wanna waste the last couple years of Dats and Z as just getting in and making it to the 2nd round. There have been plenty of opportunities to improve this team immensely through both free agency and implementing young, hungry and skilled talent. It hasn't happened. I'm in, I'll root for the team no matter what. I just expect a more progressive approach.

And that's fair. Believe me, I get it. But the reason I have my trust in Babcock is because he's taking these older players that hinder this progressive approach and is still putting this team in a position to compete against teams with superior rosters.

Beating the 2nd seeded Ducks (though I still think they overachieved) and pushing the Hawks to the brink with this roster was unexpected, let's be honest. Still, Babcock did a great job of putting the Wings in the best position possible.

Holland made some big moves this offseason in getting Weiss and Alfie. Then he signed Cleary. I like the first two, not the third. Even so, if we win, you won't hear me complaining. If not, I question Kenny first and foremost.

 

[Frk It]

How anyone thinks having Nyquist and Tatar OFF the team gives us a better roster, is beyond me.

Let's look at the formula for the last FOUR Detroit Red Wings Stanley cup Champions
1. Scoring Line
2. Scoring Line
3. Scoring Line
4. Checking line

Having 2 grinders and a old power forward on your 3rd line, does not mesh with this proven winning formula. What we have now is more like this:
1. Scoring Line
2. Scoring Line
3. Checking Line
4. Random Line

This team resembles more closely the old Ducks teams that Babcock used to out-grind people with.

Maybe he should try to go with a team like he won a Cup with back in 08.

With Cleary-Andersson-Bertuzzi you have an incredibly slow checking line that is going to dump and chase, and play a defensive "grind-it-out game".

With Tatar-Andersson-Nyquist you have a scoring line, that can skate very well, and a traditional "puck possession" line.

I have a hard time believing people actually believe that Cleary-Andersson-Bertuzzi gives you a better team than one with Tatar-Andersson-Nyquist.

Or maybe people just aren't paying attention to what has made every single Red Wings team good the last 15 years.

 

[Yemack]

Real professionals dont look at things in one dimensional. They have multiple reasons why each decisions are made and they are carefully orchestrated to fit into the long term plan.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Ken Holland and his plan. His carefully orchestrated plan which results in the Wings starting the season by not icing their best possible lineup.

If you want to keep on throwing out mumbo jumbo like "carefully orchestrated plan" go ahead, but i won't be joining you. The evidence completely contradicts your belief that Ken Holland's plan is anything but carefully orchestrated.

Everything you said could be condensed into one sentence. "Ken Holland is never wrong."

Can somebody Photoshop a photo of Ken Holland on one of the Battlestar Galactica photos that says, "They have a plan"?

 

[Yemack]

Ken Holland and his plan. His carefully orchestrated plan which results in the Wings starting the season by not icing their best possible lineup.

If you want to keep on throwing out mumbo jumbo like "carefully orchestrated plan" go ahead, but i won't be joining you. The evidence completely contradicts your belief that Ken Holland's plan is anything but carefully orchestrated.

Everything you said could be condensed into one sentence. "Ken Holland is never wrong."

you are extrapolating my argument. I just said I believe some of you guys have very simple view on look at things.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

you are extrapolating my argument. I just said I believe some of you guys have very simple view on look at things.

My opinion of Ken Holland is based on four years of watching him screw up. I am not criticizing him based on one bad year. I am pretty sure nobody is doing that. I gave a pretty detailed explanation as to how Ken Holland has managed to screw up the last two years. He has done a pretty bad job the past four years, but focusing on those failures is now pointless.

There is no evidence to suggest that Ken Holland has any long term plan. He just keeps on signing washed up vets and crosses his fingers that Datsyuk and Zetterberg keep on carrying the team.

What is the long term benefit of signing Dan Cleary when you have two prospects who are NHL ready and looked pretty damn good last year? There is none. There is no short term benefit either when the player being replaced by Cleary is better than him.

He is mortgaging the long term health of the franchise, so he can see the Wings lose in the first or second round.

 

[Frk It]

Real professionals dont look at things in one dimensional. They have multiple reasons why each decisions are made and they are carefully orchestrated to fit into the long term plan.

First, I understand your frustration with reading this board, but at the same time you have to see how the situation we are in can cause some frustration.

Also I agree that it's not a simple process, in assembling the lines to fit the criteria I laid out in my post. But, I think it would be hard for anyone to argue, that Red Wings teams are usually best when they have 3 deep scoring lines. The proof is kind of in the pudding there.

In terms of "fit into the long term plan". How exactly does playing Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, and Cleary over Tatar and Nyquist bode well for our long term plan?

 

[Yemack]

First, I understand your frustration with reading this board, but at the same time you have to see how the situation we are in can cause some frustration.

Also I agree that it's not a simple process, in assembling the lines to fit the criteria I laid out in my post. But, I think it would be hard for anyone to argue, that Red Wings teams are usually best when they have 3 deep scoring lines. The proof is kind of in the pudding there.

In terms of "fit into the long term plan". How exactly does playing Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, and Cleary over Tatar and Nyquist bode well for our long term plan?

well I dont really agree Tatar is as good as some of you guys claim. He's got potential sure, He's proven it. However, execution speed in NHL is just totally different from AHL. You saw what happened last night. Why did Buffalo get beat like that? Sure Wings had more talent but Sabres young core just could not adapt to Wings speed of play. I'm sure Sabres went over the video tapes of how we attack and stuffs like that but the thing is, when the other guys come at you faster than you expect and you have no experience the plan goes right out the door and the other team sit in the driver seat.

I guess I'll try to answer why I think some of vets help the team more than youngsters and how that might actually help in long term management of this team. but you will have to excuse me for right now cuz I just got home, tired after a long day. I'll try to comment soon.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Real professionals dont look at things in one dimensional. They have multiple reasons why each decisions are made and they are carefully orchestrated to fit into the long term plan.

Could be, but then he shouldn't make statements like ties go to the vet or I haven't really thought about it lets wait for the dust to settle. We heard both of those out of Babcock this week, his quotes have been mystifying this off-season, especially after he lauded the youth movement last post-season and spoke about how much fun the team was last year. Just very confused by his 180.

Holland also shouldn't have gone back on his plan, he seemed ready to turn the page and push forward and fumbled at the one yard line, relenting to somebody that works for him. Putting the target squarely on his back for no apparent reason, I just don't get it, this last month has been very confusing.

All decisions are complex though, they just aren't doing a very good sell job on this either or communicating their message. A GM excited not to make hard decisions for a couple weeks, a coach that sees ties and doesn't give them second thoughts. I mean what the heck kind of BS is that, even Khan has really written a couple of articles outside of the Wings protection purview which I am sure they are not happy about. They are doing a really poor job of explaining this, some of us want to know and I don't think that is unfair.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

well I dont really agree Tatar is as good as some of you guys claim. He's got potential sure, He's proven it. However, execution speed in NHL is just totally different from AHL. You saw what happened last night. Why did Buffalo get beat like that? Sure Wings had more talent but Sabres young core just could not adapt to Wings speed of play. I'm sure Sabres went over the video tapes of how we attack and stuffs like that but the thing is, when the other guys come at you faster than you expect and you have no experience the plan goes right out the door and the other team sit in the driver seat..

I think your opinion on Tatar is significantly flawed as I don't believe you watched any of his 18 games in Detroit last regular season, correct?

There's a reason why there's an outcry about him not playing and maybe more importantly not getting a fair shot...

After about 4-5 games and getting comfortable, Tatar was one of Detroit's most dangerous forwards the rest of his stint. As in like only Datsyuk and Z looked better. His skating was much better than I had anticipated and his offensive zone instincts were simply at a level that can't be taught. He sparked the bottom 6 and his ability to carry the puck toward the attacking zone was easily the best in the bottom 6 (similar to how Nyquist became the best at this once he replaced Tatar.)

Detroit has a lot of veterans up front. Look at the roster. The backend is young, but at forward it's different.

Tatar and/or Nyquist both made the team better last season. No bottom 6 veteran sparked the team like they did. Keep in mind that the bottom 6 was awful last season until the young players came up. We're not saying that they're going to carry the team. That's not their role. But they can very much make the bottom 6 more dangerous. And they should be.

 

[Yemack]

Could be, but then he shouldn't make statements like ties go to the vet or I haven't really thought about it lets wait for the dust to settle. We heard both of those out of Babcock this week, his quotes have been mystifying this off-season, especially after he lauded the youth movement last post-season and spoke about how much fun the team was last year. Just very confused by his 180.

Holland also shouldn't have gone back on his plan, he seemed ready to turn the page and push forward and fumbled at the one yard line, relenting to somebody that works for him. Putting the target squarely on his back for no apparent reason, I just don't get it, this last month has been very confusing.

All decisions are complex though, they just aren't doing a very good sell job on this either or communicating their message. A GM excited not to make hard decisions for a couple weeks, a coach that sees ties and doesn't give them second thoughts. I mean what the heck kind of BS is that, even Khan has really written a couple of articles outside of the Wings protection purview which I am sure they are not happy about. They are doing a really poor job of explaining this, some of us want to know and I don't think that is unfair.

It's not that I dont understand where you are coming from. It's just I dont necessarily agree because I believe there might be different reasons.

for instance you mentioned how babcock should not say things like 'ties goes to the vet'. you maybe right but at the same time, it's Babcock who knows Tatar better than any of you. He is seeing him everyday and maybe he's trying to send a message on multiple levels. 1) maybe he said it to motivate Tatar 2) maybe he said it in regards to other prospect who he may think will have some influence 3) it may have something to do with something else in the lockerroom.

The thing is, we dont know what they are but we can easily see there are so many variables and moving parts in just simple comment babcock made here.

Do I know what babcock meant or what Holland thinks? of course not. I'm in as much dark as all of you guys. Am I overthinking? maybe. But based on what i've observed, Babcock and Holland know what they are doing and what they are saying.

even if I was wrong on that one, I just dont agree with notion that the fact vets playing right now instead of Tatar is a travesty and somehow that proves Holland doesn't have plan or he is so stupid average joe knows better.

If anyone wants Tatar to have a huge breakout season, it's Holland and Babcock. I can guarantee you that.

 

[Yemack]

I think your opinion on Tatar is significantly flawed as I don't believe you watched any of his 18 games in Detroit last regular season, correct?

There's a reason why there's an outcry about him not playing and maybe more importantly not getting a fair shot...

After about 4-5 games and getting comfortable, Tatar was one of Detroit's most dangerous forwards the rest of his stint. As in like only Datsyuk and Z looked better. His skating was much better than I had anticipated and his offensive zone instincts were simply at a level that can't be taught. He sparked the bottom 6 and his ability to carry the puck toward the attacking zone was easily the best in the bottom 6 (similar to how Nyquist became the best at this once he replaced Tatar.)

Detroit has a lot of veterans up front. Look at the roster. The backend is young, but at forward it's different.

Tatar and/or Nyquist both made the team better last season. No bottom 6 veteran sparked the team like they did. Keep in mind that the bottom 6 was awful last season until the young players came up. We're not saying that they're going to carry the team. That's not their role. But they can very much make the bottom 6 more dangerous. And they should be.

ok maybe I was wrong about Tatar. Maybe he IS ready right now.

However, I did see him preseason and he was .. alright. Definitely not as good as you prop him out to be.

I guess we will have to wait to see Tatar proves me wrong on ice.

 

[BinCookin]

If anyone wants Tatar to have a huge breakout season, it's Holland and Babcock. I can guarantee you that.

I am sure Holland and Babcock would love Nyquist and Tatar to have break out seasons.

So would all the fans, and the players.

But honestly, they can't have a break out season if they do not play.

I think Tootoo will leave the team by either Waivers (claimed or demoted to AHL) or trade. Then Nyquist will hopefully be recalled.

But honestly... just too many darn forwards for these 2 to get significant playing time.

There is something to be said about 1 game in, 1 game in the press box. That type of play did not help many players (Kindl, Ericsson, Mursak, Helm)... but as soon as steady playing time (even if its only 8 min a night) is given... players begin to improve.

I dont "HATE" any of our players. But some of them need to go just because.

Players i would remove from the roster:

Tootoo
Eaves
Emmerton (for Helm if he returns)

Z-D-Abby
Fran-W-Alfie
Nyquist-Andy-Tatar
Miller-Emmer/Hem-Cleary/Sammy/Bertuzzi

I mean... just too many STILL.

One of cleary sammy or bert need to get injured or traded. Sadly we are "loyal" to all 3.
Hoping for injuries is ridiculous. But looking at this roster and realizing Tatar is going bench most the season, and or Nyquist unlikely to get recalled is really annoying as a fan. Rookie defensemen are not nearly as fun to cheer for as rookie forwards. And it is high time we have some rookie forwards.

(our current "rookie" forwards are 30 and 41) LOL

 

[silkyjohnson50]

There is something to be said about 1 game in, 1 game in the press box. That type of play did not help many players (Kindl, Ericsson, Mursak, Helm)... but as soon as steady playing time (even if its only 8 min a night) is given... players begin to improve.

I think this is such an understated point. Look no further than Kindl.

Also, both Tatar and Nyquist took 3-5 games to start looking comfortable last season. Playing in a one game showcase to stay in the lineup is a good way to have guys think too much rather than just play.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

you are extrapolating my argument. I just said I believe some of you guys have very simple view on look at things.

Nah.
Nobody here is demanding a full blown youth movement.
But we want kids brought up in reasonable times. And we want old guys discarded once they stop being much use.

There's a balance to it. And the Wings are badly off balance right now. I think it hurts us short term and long term.

There's nothing really simple about it.
It's part of player development. It's part of caponomics. It's part of making sure lineups stay fresh and hungry and don't get complacent.