Dishing the Dirt

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,846
7,871
Oblivion Express
Then why did you let him drop until 18 other coaches were drafted before selecting him in the 2020 All-Time Draft?

We are voting soon, and you are pimping him now, which is natural.

I'd take your top-5 bid more seriously if you'd have pitched it before or after the ATD voting consideration period.

Everybody thinks their picks are underrated. That's the nature of the beast.

You do realize that I found 95% that information out AFTER i picked Green right? Considering this is the HOH sub forum, posting a bio on a great, but largely unknown coach would seem like a nice thing for the community. I spent a shitload of time working that up and am proud of it. The resume and content speaks for itself. My ranking is an opinion. Don't like it? Not my problem. At all.

Answer your questionS?

@seventieslord reeeally?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,541
4,938
Then why did you let him drop until 18 other coaches were drafted before selecting him in the 2020 All-Time Draft?

Why would you not let someone drop if you expect him to be available since the others don't know what you know, or assume to know? It's perfectly reasonable to wait and use the earlier picks on players.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,846
7,871
Oblivion Express
The fact a person wouldn't stop for 2 seconds and consider that I might have actually discovered that information AFTER I picked Green is comical to me. Do people actually BELIEVE I researched AND typed up/compiled that amount of information on a coach before/during a draft when I wouldn't have much of a clue as to who i was going to draft as far as a coach went. I'd have loved Toe Blake but people started drafting coaches in the 7th round when scoring lines weren't even close to being complete.

And, as Theo said, even IF a person had that knowledge and opinion, why would he share it openly during a draft? Strategy?

We could also discuss me stepping up and making sure the draft itself didn't collapse when the world thought a virus was going to kill everyone. But that's another discussion entirely.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,130
7,215
Regina, SK
You do realize that I found 95% that information out AFTER i picked Green right? Considering this is the HOH sub forum, posting a bio on a great, but largely unknown coach would seem like a nice thing for the community. I spent a shitload of time working that up and am proud of it. The resume and content speaks for itself. My ranking is an opinion. Don't like it? Not my problem. At all.

Answer your questionS?

@seventieslord reeeally?

So now we're @'ing people over something as innocuous as likes?

I thought VI made two good points. One, you picked Green as the 18th coach. Two, everyone thinks their picks are underrated. that's it. Him thinking you are being sneaky or disingenuous is his business.

I also liked what RB said in response to him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ResilientBeast

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,846
7,871
Oblivion Express
So now we're @'ing people over something as innocuous as likes?

I thought VI made two good points. One, you picked Green as the 18th coach. Two, everyone thinks their picks are underrated. that's it. Him thinking you are being sneaky or disingenuous is his business.

I also liked what RB said in response to him.

The entire point was that he came into the HOH board, knowing full damn well where he was, and then started nitpicking from a position of conjecture.

I didn't mention a single thing about the ATD because that post had nothing to do with the ATD. One, I know for a fact, that changes in perceptions of players takes time. Coaches are even worse. I'm not expecting ANYONE to just read all of that and go, "well, you know, IE is right. Crown Green top 5". This isn't my first rodeo. People 3, 4, 5 years from now will adjust the curve and get the benefits in voting. The important aspect is that the information was gathered in the first place.

If I/us don't take the time to do that research, does it ever get done?

You've done numerous bio's that have taken hours upon hours to complete. Van, TDMM, RB, BB, etc, etc. I don't know about anyone else, but I feel pretty bleeping awesome when looking over a completed bio. Especially when we're talking about subjects 100+ years old. There is a sense of pride. I appreciate the hell out of others who did this long before I showed up. Made some of my first picks easier because bio's already existed. I'd wager there aren't many people in the world doing the amount of digging some of us are here. So when someone comes in and torpedoes my work, I get a little pissed off. Sorry.

@VanIslander

Nothing personal. I just found you bringing ATD material into a discussion that had nothing to do with the ATD, especially in the manner/tone you did, asinine. We're grown ups and that's how I saw it.

As for the running the draft bit? We wouldn't be having any post draft discussions if I hadn't grabbed the steering wheel. I've had numerous people thank me for doing the work. And I'm GLAD to do it. I mentioned the virus because this has given me a fantastic outlet to ignore the noise outside. I don't begrudge BB/RB one bit for dropping out as commishes. I have no idea what is going on in their lives and not in a position to judge if a person decides life is more important than a fantasy draft. Obviously BB was gone for a while so he simply couldn't run anything. I'm fortunate enough to be working from home now so I have more time and it would have been a waste to see such a large and unique draft dissolve into darkness. I've had a blast and great conversations with many, including you.

I'm sorry for your loss sir.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,880
13,671
As for the running the draft bit? We wouldn't be having any post draft discussions if I hadn't grabbed the steering wheel. I've had numerous people thank me for doing the work. And I'm GLAD to do it. I mentioned the virus because this has given me a fantastic outlet to ignore the noise outside. I don't begrudge BB/RB one bit for dropping out as commishes. I have no idea what is going on in their lives and not in a position to judge if a person decides life is more important than a fantasy draft. Obviously BB was gone for a while so he simply couldn't run anything. I'm fortunate enough to be working from home now so I have more time and it would have been a waste to see such a large and unique draft dissolve into darkness. I've had a blast and great conversations with many, including you.

I stopped administrating the draft because I was banned from the site for a month. The circumstances surrounding the ban guaranteed I wouldn't be commish any longer.

You're doing a great job, hopefully you take over permanently.
 
Last edited:

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,846
7,871
Oblivion Express
Still not done finding significant bullet points on Pete Green.

  • Scouting players
  • Green becomes 1st assistant in NHL history? (I've honestly never thought about it this far back so if assistant coaches were common practice before the mid 20's, let me know)
  • Use of buzzer to call subs + hilarious story
  • Using Darragh on his off wing to great success
  • Using multiple players, line shifts to cover Reg Noble. Very intricate coaching.
  • Holding practices to prepare for different style of hockey before SCF vs Seattle
  • Coaching demeanor described


3 Feb 1913, Page 5 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Green scouting

View attachment 343920



12 Jan 1920, Page 14 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Paging Dr. Green, LLD of hockey

Ottawa's system mentioned again.

View attachment 343921

View attachment 343922



29 Dec 1921, Page 12 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Referencing the discovery of King Clancy the year prior by Green.

View attachment 343923



30 Jun 1924, Page 4 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Referencing Green discovering Jack Darragh and signing him in 1910

View attachment 343925



6 Nov 1925, Page 17 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com


PETE GREEN POSSIBLY THE FIRST EVER ASSISTANT COACH?


img




15 Mar 1941, Page 28 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Direct reference to the buzzer wired to the bench to call for substitutes that Green invented. Being used in game, and there was even a system set up where the # of buzzes corresponded with a certain player.

Oh, and this is an absolutely hilarious story.

img




14 Jan 1911, Page 5 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

1911 - Teams now allowed to use 3 subs and Green's tactics are noted in response to rule change.

img




8 Dec 1919, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green working the team out.

img




10 Dec 1919, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green going over the lay of the land with his team before a workout. Direct player communication.


img




1 Mar 1920, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

This is telling report. Green's team playing flawlessly.

Green's tactics change within the game. See at the end of the 1st and most of the 2nd, Green held a F back and then in the 3rd, his team stretched across the neutral zone 3 and 4 abreast.

Green using a wing on his "off" side!

Green cited as handling his job faultlessly.


img


img


img




23 Feb 1920, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green using Cy Denenny to cover Reg Noble, then Broadbent and even shifted Darragh over. Perfection.


img




18 Mar 1920, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green has team working out in preparation for the SCF out west vs Seattle. Working on the forward pass/offside skating.


img




11 Dec 1920, 20 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green's demeanor noted.


img
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,846
7,871
Oblivion Express
1 Feb 1911, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Captain Percy Lesueur says the defensive pairing of Lake and Shore is the best combination he's every played behind. In the spring of 1911 he would have already had both Harvey Pulford and Cyclone Taylor in front of him as teammates in prior seasons. Speaks volumes as to the impact that pairing had on the Silver Seven dominance.

Despite being smaller, they use their bodies more effectively than Cyclone Taylor, Moose Johnson, and others. Noted as clever blockers.

Pete Green mentions that modern hockey players must have 6 capable forwards (people who can carry the puck). This is noted to be perhaps their greatest strength.



upload_2020-4-28_19-57-42.png
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,846
7,871
Oblivion Express
Some more great finds on Pete Green.

  • Green preaches conditioning
  • Warns players against overconfidence
  • Green gives scouting report on Dubbie Kerr
  • Silver Seven Reunion in 1929
  • Gorman didn't see the potential of King Clancy. Green did though.


17 Feb 1911, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green, in 1911 already showing the importance of conditioning. Players adhere to his training rules.


upload_2020-4-28_21-3-23-png.344096




9 Jan 1911, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Pete Green noted to have found Darragh but also Albert "Dubbie" Kerr.

upload_2020-4-28_21-10-7-png.344098




11 Mar 1911, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green spells out winning hockey formula in 1911.

upload_2020-4-28_21-14-30-png.344099




30 Dec 1911, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green warning his players against overconfidence.

upload_2020-4-28_21-16-20-png.344100



18 Dec 1912, 9 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green on Dubbie Kerr.


upload_2020-4-28_21-21-4-png.344102





8 Jan 1923, 9 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Megaphones banned....again.

upload_2020-4-28_21-23-2-png.344104




22 Feb 1923, 11 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com


Clear cut strategy using different combinations so shut Babe Dye down. Caused Dye to take a dumb penalty.


upload_2020-4-28_21-27-25-png.344105




19 Feb 1929, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Silver Seven reunion in 1929. Green noted as famous coach.

upload_2020-4-28_21-31-25-png.344107




Legends of Hockey - Spotlight - One on One with King Clancy

Tommy Gorman didn't know King Clancy was going to be a star. Pete Green was obviously scouting him and saw the potential.

upload_2020-4-28_21-34-55-png.344108
 
Last edited:

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
Some more great finds on Pete Green.

  • Green preaches conditioning
  • Warns players against overconfidence
  • Green gives scouting report on Dubbie Kerr
  • Silver Seven Reunion in 1929
  • Gorman didn't see the potential of King Clancy. Green did though.


17 Feb 1911, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green, in 1911 already showing the importance of conditioning. Players adhere to his training rules.


upload_2020-4-28_21-3-23-png.344096




9 Jan 1911, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Pete Green noted to have found Darragh but also Albert "Dubbie" Kerr.

upload_2020-4-28_21-10-7-png.344098




11 Mar 1911, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green spells out winning hockey formula in 1911.

upload_2020-4-28_21-14-30-png.344099




30 Dec 1911, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green warning his players against overconfidence.

upload_2020-4-28_21-16-20-png.344100



18 Dec 1912, 9 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green on Dubbie Kerr.


upload_2020-4-28_21-21-4-png.344102





8 Jan 1923, 9 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Megaphones banned....again.

upload_2020-4-28_21-23-2-png.344104




22 Feb 1923, 11 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com


Clear cut strategy using different combinations so shut Babe Dye down. Caused Dye to take a dumb penalty.


upload_2020-4-28_21-27-25-png.344105




19 Feb 1929, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Silver Seven reunion in 1929. Green noted as famous coach.

upload_2020-4-28_21-31-25-png.344107




Legends of Hockey - Spotlight - One on One with King Clancy

Tommy Gorman didn't know King Clancy was going to be a star. Pete Green was obviously scouting him and saw the potential.

upload_2020-4-28_21-34-55-png.344108

I have to say, your Pete Green research is probably the most valuable that anyone has done this draft. Before this, the knock on Green was how much he actually contributed to coaching strategies, and how much of it was actually Tommy Gorman behind the scenes.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,846
7,871
Oblivion Express
I have to say, your Pete Green research is probably the most valuable that anyone has done this draft. Before this, the knock on Green was how much he actually contributed to coaching strategies, and how much of it was actually Tommy Gorman behind the scenes.

Thanks sir. Much appreciated. It was actually quite relaxing research. Newspapers.com makes hunting incredibly easy all things considered and I highly recommend that to anyone who has time and $70 (IIRC) laying around. For a 6 month membership that is not bad at all. Thanks to @BenchBrawl for reminding me/us we should take advantage if one has the time/resources. I have a ton on Smokey Harris and Cully Wilson as well but I'm going to need a break before I consolidate all that haha.

I've been interested in Green for quite some time given the record attached but I've never really been in a position to pick him before this year as most of my teams in previous drafts had a Bowman/Blake/Gorman etc. Once coaches starting coming off in the 7th, which I thought was bonkers, I honed in on him specifically for a value pick later but I never expected to find as much as I did.

I was already eyeing up Hamby Shore before I picked Green and it was while researching Shore that I found a few nuggets on Petie and that just snowballed from there.

There is, with what I gathered and deciphered, a strong case for Green as the greatest coach all time, pre-WWII. IMHO. When you factor in his record, innovations, especially in defensive strategy that caused rules changes by the NHL, player development, communication, and peer/player testimony, it's going to be an interesting cross examination. Lester Patrick being his stiffest competition as I've been putting them side by side for a few weeks now. The key with Patrick, as I alluded to in the HoH thread about Green, will be to separate his coaching resume from his administrative/rules/financial resume, which obviously will take time and hard research. I'd really like to see a top 20/25 coaches of all time undertaken in the HoH. Obviously a tougher task vs player rankings but if folks band together and are willing to dig, I think we can lessen the subjectivity you have outright with coaches.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,846
7,871
Oblivion Express
Another Green info dump:

  • Green gives part of his salary to players
  • Green gets huge praise from Sprague Cleghorn who was with Montreal at the time
  • Multiple game reports showing Green using different line combinations and tactics
  • Awesome post game interview
  • Using Darragh on off wing to shadow Babe Dye

3 Dec 1921, 11 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green noted as respected and feared all around the NHL.


upload_2020-4-28_13-54-19-png.343995




7 Mar 1921, 11 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

-You think the players loved and respected Green? Here's another reason why. He literally gave some of his season salary to his players as a bonus.



27 Dec 1921, 10 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

King Clancy signing. Will get master level coaching by Pete Green.

upload_2020-4-28_13-57-2-png.343996




16 Jan 1922, 9 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green using subs to rest his 1st string players.

upload_2020-4-28_13-59-7-png.343997




20 Feb 1922, 11 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green noted to use different combinations, shifting players up from D and back, mixing and matching within a game. Incredible detail.

upload_2020-4-28_14-1-42-png.343998




20 Feb 1923, 10 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com


Green is praised by Sprague Cleghorn who was discovered and coached up by Green to start his career. These are major finds.


upload_2020-4-28_14-33-59-png.344019



22 Jan 1923, 11 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green giving his team a pep talk.

upload_2020-4-28_14-41-59-png.344025




29 Jan 1923, 11 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green deploying his players in different manners.


Green clearly adapting to what Hamilton was doing and re-arranging his team in response.

Green gives post game interview. Sens came back to win from down 4.


upload_2020-4-28_14-48-48-png.344028

upload_2020-4-28_14-50-26-png.344029


upload_2020-4-28_14-53-25-png.344030




3 Jan 1923, 11 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Green using Darragh on his off wing to shadow Babe Dye keeping Denenny in reserve.


img
 

Sanf

Registered User
Sep 8, 2012
1,944
902
@ImporterExporter I´m goin to continue the answer to here because I feel that this is more correct place. And I don´t want to clog the other thread with half OT and my pet subjects. So here is something, about Bert Lindsay. I make a post about Fowler later.

There is not much I know about Lindsay before his time in Renfrew. He had quick visit in Latchford Pros in Timiskaming pro league.

But he had clearly made himself reputation when he was chosen for Edmonton Pros Stanley Cup challenge. At this point he became Lester Patrick´s go to guy. It is important to notice that Edmonton had two goalies with team. Other being Billy Nicholson. Some in here may have higher opinion about "Nick" than me, but he definitely wasn´t scrub at the time. The choice for Edmonton was still Lindsay.

The Winnipeg Tribune 18. Dec 1908
Lindsay in goal was wanted this season by every team in the east, which alone ought to show his worth.

The Montreal Gazette 25. Dec 1908
Then there is Billy Nicholson of last years´s Shamrock´s who migh take Lindsay´s place if the latter did not make good in the first game. The four players mentioned give the challengers a likely quartette of substitutes.

Some more obscure offer from his services.

The Ottawa Citizen November 16. 1909
A Chicago club has made a handsome offer to Bert Lindsay goalkeeper of the Renfrew hockey team. They want Lindsay to manage one of the windy city clubs. Lindsay is considering the tempting offer, but is almost sure to remain with Renfrew.

Few quick pieces from his time in Renfrew...

The Brookly Daily Eagle 19. Mar 1910
Local followers of the game who admired Lesueur and Riley Hern, the goalkeepers of the Ottawa and Wanderer teams for the marvelous work they did before the cage in their two nights match early in the week will see another fine player when Bert Lindsay goes into the Renfrew goal...

The Ottawa Citizen 16. Jan 1911
Allthough Vezina played a good game handling all that came his way in stellar style, yet Bert Lindsay the Renfrew goaler, on the night showing was the better of the two...

He was awarded to Tecumseh after Renfrew folded. In Dispersal draft which was made by method names from the hat :). He wasn´t satisfied with the offer that he got from Toronto and went again with Lester Patrick. Most likely his best years being 1913 and 1914.

The Province 8. Mar 1913
Bert Lindsay the goaltender, who was figured by Eastern critics to be about all in, is just the same age as Lester Patrick, and like his captain and manager, he is enjoying his best season as a professional. Bert has played sensational hockey in the nets this year, and his work loops up just as prominently as Hugh Lehman´s did last season, when Royals won the Coast honors....

I would say his prime was 1908-1914 (with a rather poor 1912). Lindsay wanted closer to home and similarly Victoria´s wanted new blood. Even though it was start of decline of Lindsay he still played few very good to fine seasons in NHA and showed that past prime PCHA goalie could do fine in east. Clearly being better than the fellow oldtimer mercenary goalie Hague. And the best goalie that Wanderers had since Riley Hern.

Now it´s notable that after 1915-1916 season famous Montreal Herald writer Elmer Ferguson selected his all-star teams from NHA and Bert Lindsay was his first team choice. Vezina his second team choice. Source: Vancouver Sun 15. Mar 1916.

The Ottawa Citizen 6. Apr 1914

Word now comes from West that Bert Lindsay, who played goal for the Victorias during tha past winter, may be found with Wanderers. Lindsay, according to report from Victoria, says that he will not go back West. He has business interst in and around, Renfrew and does not wish to be so far from his headquarters. Lindsay did great work for the Victorias in the Pacific Coast race this winter and while he was unfortunate in the first two games of the Stanley Cup series he demonstrated in the third that he is still one best net guardians in the district. If the Wanderers get Lindsay they will be much stronger than they have been for several seasons as the lack of a good goaler has really been the means of keeping the Redbands in the second division.

But the return to east happened year after that.

The Ottawa Citizen 11. Dec 1915

Bert Lindsay of Renfrew was out with the Wanderers yesterday, after which he signed a contract. Sammy Lichtenhein realies the beauty of having a spare goaler and will carry both Lindsay and Hague.

The Ottawa Journal 10. Nov 1916
It is not likely that Bert Lindsay, who played goal for the Wanderers a year ago, will be with the Redbands this season. Lindsay now in Ottawa, and according to rumours it is almost an assured fact that he will not come to Montreal to play. Lindsay was one of the mainstays of the club last winter was responsible on more than one occasion for their scoring a victory. He was worked in every important game and showed himself to be one of the best goal-tenders in the National Hockey Association in years. He will likely be replaced this season by Hague, who was substitute goalkeeper year ago.
 
Last edited:

Sanf

Registered User
Sep 8, 2012
1,944
902
I guess I could mention few words about Allan Parr too. Ottawa product and before playing at PCHA he had been a pro with atleast Strathconas (Winnipeg).Personally I am not that sold about him. I could bring some praises from here and there from my notes, but overall I see him as average at best to below average pro goalie. There were few attempts to replace him, but the guys that they brought to camp (besides maybe Chuck Clark) were not pro quality at the time.

Now then Norman "Hec" Fowler. Age is wrong, but still had his first big games at very young age. These are from the Stanley Cup challenge playoffs in which Saskatoon met Port Arthur. At the end Port Arthur did not challenge though.

The Winnipeg Tribune 4. Mar 1912
Leach´s position in goal will be looked after by Fowler, a 17-year-old goal tend who lined up this season with the Rovers, intermediate champions of Saskatoon. He is said to be a wonder between the nets and is expected to bolster up a spot that was terribly weak on Saturday night.

The Winnipeg Tribune 5. Mar 1912

Fowler the youthful goaltend of the Saskatoon team, put up stellar article of net defense. He stopped some wicked shots on his nets, making as good a showing as is often seen even in Toronto!!!

Fowler had some good showings in Allan Cup playoffs and got attention of Lester Patrick. You could say he was seen as good amateur signing.

The Spokesman-Review 23. Nov 1916
...Patrick has been inclined to worry about this position, owing to the dearth of available goal keepers, but he believes that in Fowler he has the making of a first-class player.

The Leader-Post 5. Dec 1916
Norman Fowler played for Saskatoon last season and was one of the chief reasons why the Pilgrims upset hockey tradition by bringing a winning team to Saskatoon. He was by long odds the best goal tender in the north and in the south, Bill Laird was the only man who had anything on him. His first performance at Portland on Friday stamps him as being of big league mould and he will satisfactorily fill the position left vacant by Fred McCulloch.

I guess you can say two of his best season were the first ones. Atleast in 1917 and 1918 the scorers selected the "official" All-Star teams and in 1917 Fowler was 1. (2 out of 4 votes) and in 1918 2. (1 out of 3 votes) Though referees were still on Lehmans side. But nevertheless the praise got maybe bit out of hands, but shows that he was more than decent pro goalie. After those two seasons he missed year at war.

The Morning Leader - Feb 8, 1918 (Toronto Mail and Empire)
...Two years ago Norman Fowler was playing goal for a "bush" team back in the middle west. Today he ranks as the greatest custodian in the history of the game and there are lot of good ones blocking goals in hockey both east and west...

...Hughie Lehman is one of the wonders of the age in stopping shots, but even this veteran goalkeeper admits that Fowler´s playing has them all beaten. If the youngsters ever gets out and improves on his usual game, the opposing forwards are going to drop from exhaustion trying to snare goals.

Better Than Vezina

Vezina, of the Canadiens, is as cool as a chunk of ice when stopping shots, but Fowler goes him one better. He has been the whole show in two overtime battles and never batted an eye-lash when under the greatest strain. Vezina is going back and? Fowler is just entering on his hockey career and he promises to make the old-timers look foolish before he is many years in the professional game...


After his comeback the story of his career was inconsistency. Could be amazing. Could be really weak. Still there are moments that he challenged Holmes and Lehman.

The Victoria Daily Times 10. Nov 1921
Hec Fowler is the only fellow who doesn´t want to come back to Victoria to play hockey. But he´ll play here or nowhere. Manager Patrick announced this morning. Saskatoon wants him, but Lester refuses to allow a star of Fowler´s calibre leave this league.

The Victoria Daily Times 6. Jan 1921
Hec Fowler must be a dreamer. When the play is out around the blue line Hec doesn´t seem to worry very much until the puck has nestled on the ice inside the cage. Hec can block the close ones, but he has let some awfully weak shots from far out get in. And those goals have quite often been responsible for the lost of games.

I did not include this to the All-Star post because it is such a small sample size. But referee Skinner Poulin selected his PCHA all-star from the intra league games against WCHL and Fowler was his choice.

The Vancouver Sun 1923
Poulin hands the palm to Fowler for the goalkeeping position because he starred in all four games on the prairies, while Lehman and Holmes both had an off game.

The Victoria Daily Times 13. Jan 1923
Hec Fowler added another shut-out to his string. his work is becoming phenomenal and he has the best goal average in the league this year. Hec is getting proper protection now. May the good work continue.

The Victoria Daily Times 26. Feb 1924
To Hec Fowler the Victoria team can lay all the credit for emerging from fray with a point. Fowler has the reputation of being an in and outer, sometimes he´s practically unbeatable, and other anything slides past him.

When PCHA and WCHL emerged Patrick replaced him with Holmes and waived Fowler. He was clearly the third best goalie in the league. He signed with Bruins and his short stint in there was horrendous behind the abysmal expansion team. He did continue his career and made some noise in California, but overall that is more trivial.

Time Colonist 1. Dec 1925

Four years ago Frank Patrick Vancouver hockey magnate, publicly proclaimed him as one of greates goal-tenders of all time. Pacific coast fans worshipped him and small boys who frequented the rink at the early practices of the professional puck-chasers idolized him...

... but all this is stuff of four years ago, three years ago, and even two years back. Times have changed...
 
Last edited:

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,846
7,871
Oblivion Express
So, another massive bio just about wrapped up. This time on Smokey Harris. I have been updating my original post in the bio thread so just wanted to share the finished product.

@Dreakmur @ResilientBeast @BenchBrawl @VanIslander (Dreak asked what I had on Harris and tagged a few others who I know would be particularly interested given their strong feelings on the PCHA)

Major finds that have either not not been discovered (3 new AS nods) or are nowhere near as detailed based on past bios include: You can find all bullet points in bio below


  • 1912 AS as reserve (only 1 team in inaugural season)
  • 1917 1st Team AS at RW (one of 2 players to be unanimous, Moose Johnson was other)
  • 1921 1st Team AS at Utility
  • 1922 2nd Team AS nod is gone (He wasn't listed on Ion's teams)
  • Had monster 1916 SCF's vs Montreal
  • Called most complete player in game by George Kennedy in 1916 during Finals
  • Cited more than once to have world class speed
  • Elite speed cited numerous times
  • Cited too many times to count as being elite back checker (Was called best in PCHA at age 22)
  • Cited more than once as not having a peer as back checker
  • Cited too many times to count as being extremely physical/strenuous checker
  • Many big hits on other big players/stars
  • Offense steadily rose. Peaked as only winger in PCHA to lead league in scoring
-As you can see, there are now 3 new 1st team AS nods while he lost the 2nd team AS nod from 1922.

-He is now a 7 time PCHA All Star. (1912, 1913, 1916, 1917, 1919, 1920, 1921.)

- His offense shows very well, especially from 1916 onward. Given how dominant he was defensively and physically speaking, it's no wonder his offense numbers weren't higher. He clearly sacrificed some of his offensive potential to play an crazy good all around game. Not surprising given some of the teams he played on that had folks like Cyclone Taylor.




Fred "Smokey" Harris, LW/RW


myK01RIdAdb5_u_TrhWC44uPAo1qh5Fv92iKbOuvdMgn-V2DbhOlsmXIoJfeY2Btj5igTsf7VhaYokpQMWgdaoOmLcWoYDCpRoPK7SM--k-OS2N08WcFx-BjOG9Ta77S


With Portland


Smokey_Harris_Portland_Rosebuds.jpeg




Honors:

  • League Leader in Assists 2x (1919-20 and 1923-24)
  • League Leader in Points (1920-21)
  • League Leader in Penalty Minutes (1913-1914)
  • Stanley Cup Playoff Points Leader (1915-1916)
  • Stanley Cup Playoff Assists Leader (1915-1916)
  • PCHA Playoff Goals Leader (1920-21)
  • PCHA Playoff Points Leader (1920-21)
  • 4 x PCHA League Champion (1916, 1921, 1922, 1923)
  • PCHA First All-Team (1912*, 1913, 1916, 1917**, 1919, 1920, 1921***)

*Only 1 AS team in 1912. Harris was reserve player
**Unanimous choice at RW (Played for Portland)
***Utility position



Statistics:

  • 1912-13 - 14 Goals - 20 Points - 2nd League Wide
  • 1913-14 - 14 Goals - 17 Points - 10th League Wide
  • 1914-15 - 14 Goals - 17 Points - 10th League Wide
  • 1915-16 - 10 Goals - 16 Points - 11th League Wide
  • 1916-17 - 18 Goals - 31 Points - 7th League Wide
  • 1917-18 - 5 Goals - 11 Points - 12th League Wide (missed half the season)
  • 1918-19 - 20 Goals - 26 Points - 3rd League Wide
  • 1919-20 - 14 Goals - 24 Points - 4th League Wide
  • 1920-21 - 15 Goals - 32 Points - 1st League Wide
  • 1921-22 - 10 Goals - 14 Points - 10th League Wide
  • 1922-23 - 10 Goals - 16 Points - 13th League Wide
  • 1923-24 - 8 Goals - 18 Points - 7th League Wide


Summary of Points Finishes: (bolded might have been skewed by playing with Taylor though Harris outscored Taylor in their first full season together)
1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10, 10, 10, 11, 12, 13

Summary of Goals Finishes:
2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 9, 9, 12, 13* 14, 16

Summary of Assist Finishes:

1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6*, 6, 9, 11, 11, 16, 18

(*1918-19 Season where missed half the games)


The three seasons Harris was playing with "peak" Taylor (1912-1914, 1918-19) Ages (22, 23, 28)
Goals: 48 - 0.94117 G/game
Assists: 15 - 0.29411 A/game
Points: 63 - 1.235 Pts/game
Games Played:51


Seasons in Portland (1914-1918) Ages (24 - 27)
Goals: 61 - 0.884 G/game
Assists: 25 - 0.3623 A/game
Points: 86 - 1,2464 Pts/game
Games Played: 69


The seasons after Taylor was passed his prime (1919-1924) Ages (29-33)
Goals: 57 - 0.47899
Assists: 47 - 0.3949
Points: 104 - 0.8739
Games Played: 119


-This is telling. One, it shows Harris could produce equally as well (in fact he actually scored a tad better in Portland) without Taylor and two, just how darn good Smokey's longevity was.



Big thanks @ResilientBeast for the Honor/Stats portion from his 2017 bio.




CHRONOLOGICAL CAREER RESUME, NOTES, TESTIMONIES, STORIES, ETC.



7 Dec 1912, Page 22 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

This is 1912. Would have been just before the start of his 3rd season.

Heavy back checking already noted.


img

img



1 Apr 1912, Page 14 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Harris already an All Star in 1912 as a reserve. A new bullet point for his resume

Made team based on skillful checking.


img


img




23 Dec 1918, Page 10 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Harris said to have been one of the best forward sin the game "a few years ago" in 1918.

img

img




4 Feb 1919, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris called hard checking wing

Bottled up Foyston and Cully Wilson

Off night shooting (still had 3 points) but otherwise dominant


img




18 Feb 1919, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris' speed noted again.

Another mention of his great shot.

Didn't mind crashing the net/goalie

Scores a sensational goal

Harris fights Bobby Rowe and wins


img


img


img

img




25 Feb 1919, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris and Santley noted for huge amounts of back checking

Smokey scores "stictly high-class and spectacular" goal


img

img




30 Mar 1919, 13 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Humans haven't invented a train as fast as Harris and Moose Johnson


img




15 Mar 1919, Page 14 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Harris owns the net front.

img




27 Dec 1919, Page 14 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Harris scouting report in 1919

img




6 Jan 1920, Page 10 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Harris continually breaking up Seattle attacks with hook check.

img




21 Dec 1920, 24 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris holding down Bernie Morris who didn't register a point.

img




28 Dec 1920, 17 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris with a great assist

Harris hardest working (glue guy) never tired. Back checking was a FEATURE


img




4 Jan 1921, 17 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Hardest working player of game.

In every play in his own end.


img




18 Jan 1921, 19 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris and co. singled out for checking Seattle to standstill

Harris had 4 assists

Harris shows WORLD CLASS speed

His performance called best in league history to that point?


img



img

img


img




1 Mar 1921, 4 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris scores 2+1

Took delight in checking his opposite


img




1 Mar 1921, 19 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Smokey Harris star of Vancouver again.

Broke up innumerable players with STRENUOUS back checking.


img

img




15 Mar 1921, 20 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris had the skill/ability to go megatron offensively.

Harris star of Vancouver.

Harris getting some dirty jabs in.

Bernie Morris checked to standstill by Harris.


img


img


img


img




19 Mar 1921, 29 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Playoff scoring leader

img




22 Mar 1921, 25 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris AS USUAL, best man on the ice

Back checked other team to standstill

Iron Man


img




22 Mar 1921, 4 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris scores pretty goal vs Sens/Benedict

img




25 Mar 1921, 23 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris scores a goal+assist early in game

Took a 3 min penalty (not clipped)

Harris and co. speed noted

Harris not being intimidated by Eddie Gerrard and bouncing some Sens players of his own

Harris gives best displays of back checking seen this winter


img


img


img


img




29 Mar 1921, 4 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris levels Frank Nighbor (sky high) with good clean body check

Harris literally said to have played both wings at once due to the RW playing subpar

img



img




1 Apr 1921, 28 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris drawing Ottawa into targeting him rather than the team.

Harris keeps getting pounded and keeps coming back and going right through Ottawa

Clashed with Gerard multiple times.


img




23 Dec 1921, 17 - The Seattle Star at Newspapers.com

Harris rated as fastest skater in entire PCHA.


img




10 Jan 1922, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris and Skinner both effective particularly on the back check


img




12 Dec 1922, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris dropped back to blue line in 3rd period with success

Harris giving strenuous body checks to keep Cougars honest


img




2 Jan 1924, 10 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris checking Alf Skinner

img




3 Nov 1924, 10 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Scouting report in 1924 (13th season)

Harris revels in tough going and heavy body checking

Feared player

Can play LW or D and shone well there in previous season


img

img





24 Dec 1924, 12 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Even in 1924, this late in his career, Harris is said to have few, if any peers in back checking

img






ADDITIONAL INFORMATION BELOW (BECAUSE I HAD MORE THAN 50 PICTURES):





8 Feb 1912, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris' first season in Vancouver. His first in pro hockey.

Wasn't a scorer yet but already noted as a consistent back checker


Fred Harris of the Vancouver team has scored only one goal in seven games but has earned his place by consistent back checking.




10 Feb 1912, Page 14 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Harris first season in pro hockey

Already mentioned as a strong body checker


One of the really pleasing features of the game was the clean body checking developed, an art not much in vogue heretofore this season. Si Griffis was particulary strong at the game and he has an able runner up in Fred Harris.




4 Dec 1912, 17 - Edmonton Journal at Newspapers.com

Scouting report in 1912

Strenuous back checking made up for his not scoring goals

Hard as nuts, looks for fray


Harris failed to shine in the scoring columns last season, but his strenuous back checking spoiled many a roseate dream of a goal in the mind of hte opposition.

Fred is hard as nuts, always eager for the fray,
and couldn't be kept out of the game if he had to pay for the privileged of playing.




11 Dec 1912, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Fred Harris showed improvements over last season and was just the busy checker as of yore




18 Dec 1912, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Already called "husky checker" at 22 years old

Laid Goldie Prodgers out, who was a big dude, several times.

Harris as usual, was the husky checker and several times he stretched even big Prodgers on the ice by hard bodies




18 Dec 1912, Page 12 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Same game as above quote.

Busy checker who broke up numerous attacks

Fred Harris scored 2 goals as many as he scored all last season. He is still the busy checker and his hard work broke up more than one promising attack last night. He played a hard-working game every minute play was in progress.




30 Dec 1912, 11 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris called toughest player in league

Big strides as a scorer


Fred Harris the roughest and toughest boy in the league, according to Victoria fans, is showing himself to be a clever goal getter this year.




18 Jan 1913, Page 18 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Most effective player on ice. 2+1.

Checking again most effective.


Fred Harris appeared the most effective Vancouver player on the ice, getting two goals and assisting with a timely pass in another.

The Kenora boy's checking was again most effective and he was tireless in his efforts to aid in securing a victory.




17 Feb 1913, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris puts McDonald out of the game

Ran McDonald was knocked out temporarily in a collision with Harris but was able to continue after a brief rest.




1 Mar 1913, 8 - The Victoria Daily Times at Newspapers.com

Harris makes the 1913 AS team

Goes from 4 goals as rookie to 14 in 2nd season

22 years old already called best back checker in the entire PCHA

Harris developed into a sensation this year, being a grand scorer, while there is not an equal in the league when it comes to back checking




5 Mar 1913, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris, Taylor and Kendall all played sterling hockey, checking back in heady fashion.




26 Mar 1913, Page 14 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Harris broke up many attacks

He and Oatman showed up while the rest of Vancouver apparently didn't.


Eddie Oatman and Fred Harris were the hard working lads of the west. They were tireless in their efforts, both on the aggressive and in their back checking.

Harris in particular broke up many a promising piece of combination by the east by his work in everlastingly skating back.

The rest of the team were very evidently tired from their hard work of the past two weeks and did not show up in the form which has marked their season.




29 Nov 1913, 8 - The Victoria Daily Times at Newspapers.com

Skates like fiend and checks back all night

Neighors and Harris are the perfect pair of wings, who can skate like fiends and check back all night.

Neighbors and Harris look pretty sweet on the wings and with Taylor going just as strong as ever, the Terminals have a grand team.




17 Dec 1913, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris bags 4 goals

Always around net

Harris who has been coming fast, at last appears to have cultivated the art of goal getting to a nicety and last night he led the team in this respect, scoring no less than four goals. Fred always seemed to be fussing round the net at the right time and he was on the job for passes at most opportune moments.




17 Jan 1914, Page 14 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Harris playing hurt and starring

2 goals and locking Throop down

Fred Harris was also under the doctor's care, and should not have been in the game, but he could not be induced to stay his hand on his old Westminster rivals. He found the net on two occasions and played a hard game, his defensive work preventing Throop from showing as well as usual.




28 Jan 1914, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Nighbor and Harris doing useful checking

Harris singled out as being a tireless worker habitually.

Harris and Nighbor did some very useful checking, the former being a tireless worker, as is his habit.




18 Feb 1914, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris all over ice, breaking up dangerous rushes

Took on anyone

Fred Harris did some magnificent checking last night and he broke up some dangerous rushes of the Victoria forwards by his efforts. He was all over the ice and no opposing player was too big for him to take a chance with.




10 Dec 1914, 4 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris and Portland playing rough

Knocks out 2 of Lloyd Cook's teeth.

The Portland players were guilty of considerable rough work, hooking and slashing being a specialty, and it was the result of one of Fred Harris' famous hooks that Cook lost two teeth.




6 Jan 1915, Page 11 - The Oregon Daily Journal at Newspapers.com

Harris scores 2+1 in OT loss.

Breaks up numerous rushes and holds Cyclone Taylor to 1 goal.

Fred Harris aided wonderfully by breaking up numerous rushes of the Vancouver players, especially those by Cyclone Taylor.




26 Jan 1915, Page 9 - The Oregon Daily Journal at Newspapers.com

Noted to play corking game and is "tearing player"

Fred Harris, called "Smokey", who plays a corking game of ice hockey for the Portand team. Harris is a tearing player and his feet fly in all directions, behooving the enemy to give him a clear track.




1 Feb 1915, Page 7 - The Oregon Daily Journal at Newspapers.com

Harris is so fast they call him Smokey

Fred Harris, who's work has been of high order in the Pacific Coast Hockey league this season.

He is such a fast skater they call him "Smokey" Harris.




8 Jan 1916, 8 - The Victoria Daily Times at Newspapers.com

Harris plays a rough game
But a few minutes had elapsed after the resumption of play when Carpenter was banished from the game and fined $5 for cracking Harris after the Smokey one had body checked him against the boards. Harris was also sent from the ice, and will be short $2 from his pay envelope for his brief exhibition of checking against the boards.




27 Jan 1916, Page 15 - The Oregon Daily Journal at Newspapers.com

Harris scores hat trick while being all over ice over entire game.

Fred Harris all around playing in the local game Tuesday open the eyes of the local fans.

Smokey was everywhere during the all three periods and scored three of the several goals scored by the locals.




30 Jan 1916, Page 16 - The Oregon Daily Journal at Newspapers.com

Best offensvie player on Portland

Strong once again in back checking

Harris led the offensive attack and was very strong on the back checking and he also uncorked some speedy sprints during the course of the game.




19 Feb 1916, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Amazing review as to why Harris was picked for 1916 PCHA 1st team AS. Over Dubbie Kerr and Lloyd Cook.


Harris always relentless checker

Goes at top speed from start to finish of every game

Solid offense

Willingness to work combinations with his line mates

For the left wing position Leiut. Hewitt declares he has to desert the scoring records, the following of which would mean the selection of “Dubbie” Kerr of Victoria, who leads all the wingers, but Tobin in the matter of points.

Kerr’s lack of stamina and his inability to go the full route bars him from the team.

Lloyd Cook of Vancouver has been a most useful performer in this position, but even though he is high in the scoring records he has been inconsistent in his work in the last four games.

Fred Harris of Portland has been the same old Fred in every game this season, always a persistent and relentless check and a pretty handy man to have round on the attack, too, as the figures will show.

Fred goes at top speed from start to finish and for that reason, as well as his willingness to work into combination with the other men on the forward line, gives him the call.




18 Mar 1916, 15 - Edmonton Journal at Newspapers.com

Great scouting report on Harris in 1916

Called on of the best left wings in major league hockey

Reputation for being one roughest players in hockey

Aggressive, hard checker and plays game for all he's worth

Disregards personal injury


Fred “Smokey” Harris is looked on as one of the best left wings in major league hockey.

He broke in with the Kenora Thistles, who played and won the Stanley Cup before it was put up for competition between east and west.

In 1912 Harris came to Vancouver and remained here until last year, when he was traded to Portland for Mallen. Portland had the choice of Neighbor or Harris and chose the latter.

Harris has the reputation of being one of the roughest players in the league. He is aggressive, a hard checker, and is always in the game to win. At least part of this reputation is unjustified, as he plays the game for all he is worth, entirely disregarding the risk of personal injury.




21 Mar 1916, 6 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Game report from game 1 of the SCF against Montreal

Harrist fastest, most valuable man on ice

Harris ragged puck on penalty kill, cited as effective hockey

Noted to be in perfect physical condition

2 and 3 Montreal players were forced to chase after him

George Kennedy calls Harris the best all around hockey player in the game

Scores goal after deking Corbeau out

Harris the fastest and most valuable man on the ice.

Portland also played superb hockey. They uncorked tow or three beautiful two man rushes and on one of these Tobin and Harris collaborated for their final goal.

Invariably one of the westerners would shoot down the wing or center and whip it out. Incidentally they aroused the ire of the Canadien supporters by carrying the puck around their net time after time.

Repeatedly they would seize the puck at center and shoot one of the their players around the goal, while the other stood still and waited an opportunity to break like a flash.

Fred Taylor’s celebrated stunts were repeatedly recalled as Harris, Oatman, or Tobin semi-circled and then dashed straight down center.

In the third Harris whirled around his own net three times in succession while the crowd roared its disapproval. It was effective hockey at the time, however, as Oatman was then with the timers and they were playing for time.


He was obviously in perfect shape as he stayed in the game practically from start to finish and was a tower of strength.


At times there were two or three Canadiens charging wildly after Harris in an effort to stop him up.


He looks one of the grandest puck chasers in the game.


George Kennedy said after the match that Harris impressed him as the best all around hockeyist he had seen this winter.

He would be a wonder with any of the NHA teams, but it is likely that the two leagues will sign a peace pact shortly and that the hockey war will end.

Both teams had several penalties, Lalonde and Tobin having been off, but they were at full strength when Tobin suddenly shot down the right wing and whipped it across to Harris, who fooled Corbeau and scored on the open net.




27 Oct 1916, 9 - The Victoria Daily Times at Newspapers.com

Harris in peak physical condition before season. Speed noted.

Mentioned as real star in season prior

Played very well in SCF season prior


With his muscles as hard as nails, and apparently in pink condition, Smoke Harris, the speed merchant of the Portland Rosebuds, and a former Vancouver player, blew into town this week and is resting up before going to the Rose City where he expects to put in the best season of his career.

Fred has taken first class care of himself this summer, having spent some time camping in the south. Open air life has done much for his general health and if condition counts for anything he should make good his promise that he will play the best hockey of his career this winter.

Harris was one of the real stars of the PCHA last season and from the reports received here was a bright and shining light on the Portland lineup in the World Series with the Canadians.




19 Nov 1916, Page 19 - The Oregon Daily Journal at Newspapers.com

More mentions of his elite speed.

Fred "Smokey" Harris, the speed demon, has been spending the summer with relatives in Vancouver BC and has recently returned with his sardonic smile and is ready to line up with the bunch at the blow of the whistle for the first practice
.




25 Dec 1916, 6 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Physical and wonderful rushes
Fred Harris was the only other member ot the Portland team to play a star game and though he got rough occasionally he put through some wonderful rushing hockey.




4 Jan 1917, Page 9 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Harris elite speed noted once again

Fred Harris registers extreme speed and skates gracefully to the ryhmn of the band. It is quite some scene.




5 Feb 1917, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Smokey Harris makes Ed Black's AS list in 1917 as the utility man


Black would know players and league extremely well. Coach in CAL and former judge of play (ref) in the PCHA
Ed Black, manager of the Centrals in the City Amateur League (CAL) and former judge of play in the PCHA, comes to bat with an all-star team which he believes would show some real class against any other team that may be selelcted:

Manager Black submits the follow:

Goal – Lehman, Vancouver
Point – F. Parick, Vancouver
Coverpoint – Ed Carpenter, Seattle
Rover – Taylor, Vancouver
Centre – Irvin, Portland
Left Wing – Jack Walker, Seattle
Utility – Fred Harris, Portland

Perhaps you, Mr. Fan, can go him one better. What is your selection?




10 Feb 1917, 24 - The Leader-Post at Newspapers.com
Fred Harris led the point getters with one goal and two assists.




12 Feb 1917, 6 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

1916-17 PCHA All Stars

Harris UNANIMOUS choice at RIGHT WING

Here you are:

The three officials of the PCHA have given out their choice of all-star teams for the season of 1916-17.
One noticeable feature si that all three have chosen Lehman as the best goal keeper and everyone of them has included Johnson of Portland on the defense and Harris at right wing.

Mickey Ion’s Pick

Goal – Lehman of Vancouver
Point – Lester Patrick of Spokane
Coverpoint – Johnson of Portland
Rover – Irvin of Portland
Centre – Morris of Seattle
Right Wing – Harris of Portland
Left Wing – Roberts of Vancouver
Spare Forward – Kerr of Spokane
Spare Defense – Walker of Seattle

George Irvine’s

Goal – Lehman of Vancouver
Point – Frank Patrick of Vancouver
Coverpoint – Johnson of Portland
Rover – Taylor of Vancouver
Centre – MacKay of Vancouver
Right Wing – Harris of Portland
Left Wing – Kerr of Spokane
Spare Forward – Roberts of Vancouver
Spare Defense – Lester Patrick of Spokane


Seaborn’s Selection


Goal – Lehman of Vancouver
Point – Johnson of Portland
Coverpoint – Lester Patrick of Spokane
Rover – MacKay of Vancouver
Centre – Irvin of Portland
Right Wing – Harris of Portland
Left Wing – Roberts of Vancouver
Spare Forward – Dunderdale of Portland
Spare Defense – Frank Patrick of Vancouver




27 Jan 1918, Page 21 - The Oregon Daily Journal at Newspapers.com

Harris breaks ribs on body check. Still finishes game.

Fred "Smokey" Harris of the Portland hockey team will be out of the game for the next fortnite. He is suffering from 2 broken ribs, sustained when he body checked Lester Patrick, manager of the Seattle team, in the second period.

Harris had the ribs bound with tape between the second and third periods, and finished the game.




31 Dec 1918, 12 - Calgary Herald at Newspapers.com

Harris called one of the most aggressive and effective players (not just winger) in the league by Eddie Oatman

Hailed by eastern writers as one of the best wingers who played in East over entire year. This was from the 1916 SCF where Portland took Montreal to the full 5 games before losing.


Fred “Smokey” Harris for the past three seasons a member of the Portland club, comes back to Vancouver in this season’s shuffle.

Harris broke in major league hockey as a member of the first Vancouver team in 1912, and although an awkward youth at that time, he has come along rapidly, and in Eddie Oatman’s opinion he is one of the most aggressive and effective players in the league.

Harris’ playing in the world series against the Canadiens in Montreal in 1916 was one of the big surprises that season, and he was hailed by eastern writers as one of the best wing men who had shown in the east that season.




1 Mar 1919, 18 - The Province at Newspapers.com

1919 PCHA AS Team

Harris make first team over Frank Foyston


Mickey Ion Gives Lehman, Mackay and Harris Places

First Team:

Hugh Lehman, Vancouver - Goal
Ernie Johnson, Victoria - Defence
Bobby Rowe, Seattle - Defence
Mickey Mackay, Vancouver - Rover
Bernie Morris, Seattle - Centre
Cully Wilson, Seattle – Right Wing
Fred Harris, Vancouver – Left Wing




6 Dec 1919, 14 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris called one of best players in league.

Rare longevity noted

Played brilliantly in 1918 and scored a pair of OT goals.

Harris is one of the best players on the circuit, and one of the very few has seen continuous service on the coast loop since the inception of the game in the west in 1912.


Last season he played brilliantly for the Millionaires, and in two overtime battles went through for the winning counters.


He will fill in a big gap in the local lineup if he hustles into action with a signed contract.




15 Dec 1919, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris has hook check that rivals Mickey Mackay

Fred Harris will have an opportunity to display his real speed at rover this winter. Last year “Smokey” developed a hook check that rivaled that of Mickey Mackay. This season, when he will be able to lie back on the defense, he should be able to use it to good advantage.




30 Dec 1919, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris make dominant rush

Spectacular all evening w/ famous hook check
No “tank” had anything on Fred Harris when he rushed his way through the Aristocrat defence in the second period breaking Eddie Oatman’s bludgeon and knocking Wilf Loughlin’s out of his hands in the attempt.

Harris who had been playing spectacular all evening with his famous hook check, jumped into even more prominence in this period.

In an outstanding rush down the ice the Smokey one hopped, jumped and pounded his way through the Capitals defense, but a beautiful save by Fower robbed him of the crowning glory.




27 Jan 1920, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris speed noted

1+1

Smokey Harris showed speed last night from start to finish. He rode through the Victoria defense twice, once for a goal and the other he assisted Roberts to a goal.

On other occasion, too numerous to count, his shots were saved in sensational fashion by Fowler.

He is showing speed to advantage in his old position at left wing.




13 Mar 1920, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

1920 All Star team per Mickey Ion

Harris 1st team LW

The following are the all star teams selected from the Pacific Coast Hockey League by referee Mickey Ion:

First Team.

Lehman, Vancouver, goal; Cook, Vancouver, point; Foyston, Seattle, rover; Dunderdale, Victoria, center; Oatman, Victoria, right wing; Harris, Vancouver, left wing.

Second Team.

Holmes, Seattle, goal; Patrick, Victoria, point; Rowe, Seattle, cover point; Walker, Seattle, rover; Taylor, Vancouver, center; Skinner, Vancouver, right wing; Jim Riley, Seattle, left wing.




6 Nov 1920, 28 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris one of most effective players in 1919

Consistent performer

Smokey Harris was one of the most effective men in the league last year, a consistent performer and one who is always good for markers.

Both Harris and Skiner combine well and with a smooth working centre player the Vancouver team should develop an effective combination, something which has been lacking past seasons.




8 Feb 1921, 4 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris' world class speed again noted.

Harris pulls off insanely talented move and pass


Later Harris steals puck from Oatman Johnson

Shows incredible awareness and scores most sensational goal of game


Smokey Harris could easily have qualified for any international speed carnival; at times he whizzed down the ice with the footing of a phantom.

In this period Smokey Harris pulled one of the most spectacular plays that has been seen this season. Tearing in on the Victoria defense and suddenly confronted with two opposing players, he hurdled his own stick and simultaneously flicked a perfect backhand pass to Skinner; only the fact that Fowler was unusually good last night prevented the pair from scoring.

Oatman and Johnson were making Victoria's umpteenth attempt to run the tide when Smokey Harris rushed in, outwitted the pair of them and like a flash was on his way.

Smokey first made sure that his teammates were covering for the pass and when the opposing defense were about to spring into the play, he shot, and Umpire Murphy’s mitt rang up another tally.

It was the most sensational goal of the entire game.




22 Feb 1921, 4 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris back checking hard
Harris and Skinner were always in the game, shooting on Fowler with uncanny aim, and checking back hard. Interestingly Harris drew his 2nd penalty of the season.




8 Mar 1921, Page 11 - The Seattle Star at Newspapers.com


1921 PCHA All Stars


Harris makes 1st team as utility player


Ion’s list criticized for placing players out of position (Harris not one of them).


Foyston was though, at LW, where he didn’t play.

There’s only one fault to find with Referee Mickey Ion’s 1921 All-Star hockey selections.

His fault is that he didn’t place all the men in their right positions.


His first team follows:


Lehman, goal; Johson and Cook, defense; Walker, rover; Fredericksson, center; Foyston, left wing; J. Adams, right wing; Oatman and Harris, utility.


His second team follows:


Holmes, goal; Rickey and C. Loughlin, defense; MacKay, Vancouver, rover, Jim Riley, center; Morris, left wing; Skinner, right wing; Dunderdale and W. Loughlin, utility.

On his first team three men (Johnson, Foyston and Adams) are placed in positions other than they played in most of the season, and on the second squad two men are placed out of position (Bernie Morris and Jim Riley)

Moose Johnson didn’t star to play the brand of hockey that has stamped him as one of the aces of the season until he was shifted from defense to rover. He has played that position on the Victoria club most of the season.

Frank Foyston would make a great left wing for the forward line but the blonde wizard has played all but one or tow games at center for the local club.

The same goes for Jack Adams, the Vancouver center. He is placed at right wing, while has been playing center.

On the second team Bernie Morris is placed at left wing, when hasn’t played at game on that side of the ice all year. He has played right wing and center for the local forces all season.

And Jim Riley, who hasn’t played at center at all on the Seattle team is given the center berth on Ion’s second team.

It’s all right, undoubtedly, to place one or two men on a mythical team out of position to make a stronger combination but to shift give men seems like it’s being carried a bit too far.




8 Nov 1921, Page 10 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Harris tied for league scoring lead

Called "fixed star of first magnitude"

Local hockey followers will all be glad to see Smokey and the others back with the Millionaires.

Last season Harris was one of the league's leading scorers, tying Frederickson, and performing genreally like a fixed star of the first magnitude.

His famous fly-on-the-wall rushes along the boards were always a feature in any game he played.




18 Feb 1923, 18 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com


Harris bio/scouting report late in 1923 season

Injuries robbed him of a pretty good start to season

He plays defense in place of Art Duncan, showing well

Noted as only winger in PCHA history to lead league in scoring 2 years prior

In 1910 a senior league was formed with Winnipeg, Brandon and other points, and the Kenora Kids won the league title. Smokey played centre and defense for the Kids and led the league in scoring. In the spring of 1911 the team played off for the Allan Cup with the Winnipeg Vics, but were beaten.

After three years with the Millionaires, Harris was transferred to Portland, remaining with the Oregon outfit for four seasons and then returning to this city, where he has remained ever since, holding down a regular berth at left wing.

Last year he had his nose smashed prior to the coast playoffs and was out of the final series and the world’s championship games with Toronto.

After a pretty good start to to this season he was again put out of active service for several weeks by getting three fingers on his shooting hand broken during the Maroon’s trip to the prairies.

Since his return to the game he has played various positions, at left wing, centre, and defense.

At the start of the current season, before Duncan was ready to play, Harris filled in at right defense on several occasions and the showing he made then led many observers to prophecy that Smokey will be developed for a defense position.

Fred is a good skater, has a reputation for flashing down the boards like a fly on a wall, and packs a wicked shot.

Year before last he was tied with Frederickson for league scoring honors, the only wing player ever to attain that eminence.




9 Nov 1923, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Nice overview on 1923/24


Harris injects "real kick" into his playing

Robust rushes. Loves the rough play.

Proved worthy successor to Doc Robert's.


That section of Vancouver’s hockey rooting fraternity which so often yodeled “Come on Smokey,” in the past will be forced to adopt a new yell this season, or at least to change that portion of it dealing with the stick handling genius officially known as Mr. Frederick Harris of Portland and points south.

Harris has this season attached his name to Seattle's contract and will be here on Monday night next to show Vancouver what a real star of the ice game they lost when he vanished from their immediate ken.

Smokey probably injects as much real kick into his playing as any athlete who ever wore the skates and leg pads.

His rushes are robust at times, not to say rough. When Harris gets the puck in front of him the more who gather round to dispute the matter the better he likes it.


“The rougher the going the better” is Smokey’s motto
and with it all he is not deliberately unmindful of the ethics of hockey. It is just his style.

Harris has been with the Maroons since the days of the Portland team. Always he has played the left wing and he proved a worthy successor to Doc Roberts, although he lacked the medico’s uncanny precision in shooting from the left on a rising mark for the goal.

Last year he injured a thumb on the prairies and hardly go back into his stride during the season.
He has been playing on the coast since 1912 and Muldoon was well please to get him when Bernie Morris migrated to the prairies.




13 Nov 1923, 10 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com
Smokey Harris looked strange in a Seattle uniform. He was always in the fray, taking bumps and giving them.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Habsfan18 and Sanf

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,541
4,938
Recently I discovered that Vyacheslav Starshinov brought out a second biographical book in 1981, ten years after his first. It contains a take by Starshinov on Ivan Hlinka. Here it is:

"Today it seems to me that Ivan Hlinka is the most striking figure among the center forwards of Czechoslovakia. It is no coincidence that he is the captain of this illustrious team. He loves hockey selflessly, like the artist loves his craft. Hlinka has the gift to understand everything in hockey. But his hockey wisdom is all the more subtle in that it does not catch the eye. As an immense talent, Hlinka is original in everything. He almost never does what the opponents expects of him. Even though he is a high-class master and the undisputed leader on the team, he does not emphasize his position among his peers. He rather acts unaware of it. He works tirelessly on the ice, everywhere on the rink, without shying away from the roughest work. Defensively, he works like a real defenseman.
In my opinion, Hlinka's technique is without flaws. There is no technical skill that he wouldn't have performed with ease. From the side it looks like everything he does is simple. And, of course, Hlinka is a true captain. This captain is truly the best, strongest and wisest. In his game, the principle 'everything for the team, everything for victory' is visible from the first to the last minute of the battle. And even though he is a decorated athlete (...), I believe that he is still growing as a player. That's the impression I get from him."
Original:
Когда я впервые увидел выехавшего на площадку в составе сборной Чехословакии юного Ивана Глинку, признаюсь, я чуть ие рассмеялся. Уж очень этот длинный парень был не похож на сурового бойца, какими мы привыкли видеть хоккеистов лучших команд мира! Милое, добродушное, домашнее, а главное, совершенно детское лицо. На сегодняшний день, мне кажется, Иван Глинка наиболее яркая фигура среди центральных нападающих Чехословакии. Не случайно он является капитаном этой прославленной команды. Хоккей он любит самозабвенно. Так художник любит свое ремесло. Глинке дано в хоккее понимать все, Но его хоккейная мудрость тем коварнее, что она пе бросается в глаза. Как очень болышой талант, Глинка во всем самобытен. Почти никогда не делает того, что ждет от него соперник.
Мастер высокого класса, бесспорный лидер команды никак не подчеркивает — скорее даже не замечает — своего положения в коллективе. Работает на площадке без устали, в любой точке поля, не чураясь самой черновой работы. В обороне он трудится как заправский защитник.
Техника Глинки, по-моему, не имеет изъянов. Нет технического приема, который не исполнялся бы Иваном с легкостью. Со стороны кажется: все, что он делает, проще простого.
И, конечно, Глинка — настоящий капитан. Капитан по праву лучшего, сильнейшего, мудрейшего. В его игре принципи «все для команды, все для победы» виден с первой до последней минуты хоккейного боя. И хотя он спортсмен титулованный (...), я верю, что это растущий хоккеист. Такое он производит впечатление.

Perhaps not uninteresting for @BenchBrawl who drafted him.
 
Last edited:

Sanf

Registered User
Sep 8, 2012
1,944
902
So, another massive bio just about wrapped up. This time on Smokey Harris. I have been updating my original post in the bio thread so just wanted to share the finished product.

Nice work!

I have few comments on the All-Star selections. Those are always tricky. (Also haven´t seen before Ed Blacks selection and have done even bit too much work with those. :) Nice find)

1911-1912
Now Total Hockey or Trail have used different source. I believe (or atleast its a match )that this is the one they have used. It appeared in few papers. Now it seem to be opinion of one writer. In these two teams Harris do not appear at all. Everyone can give it the value that they want.
12 Mar 1912, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Now the one you are using is the one selected to play against Eastern All-Star. It was selected by Frank Patrick. Now the original selection of Patrick was G; Lehman, Point; F.Patrick, Cover; Johnson, Rover; Lalonde Centre; Dunderdale; Right; Hyland Left; McDonald Spares; L.Patrick and Gardner

Now I´m not sure at which point and reason Gardner was dropped. Rowe and Harris appeared in the game as spares.

It is small plus to his resume, but I would be rather cautious to call it spare in any kind of official All-Star team.

1916-1917
The sometimes called "official" All-Star team from that year was made by the scorer/writers. Here The Calgary Daily Herald - Google-uutisarkistohaku This method was later criticized from the fact that the scorers only did see the hometown games. Even though the referees selection that you use isn´t the "official" I personally believe is the better one.

For the reasons
A) Referees selection was made after season. (nevermind it was mid-season selection)
B) Scorers did see only mainly hometown games and as hometown writers may have been biased.

1921-1922
Actually he was according to my source.
The Calgary Daily Herald - Google-uutisarkistohaku

This whole PCHA All-Star teams thing is tricky as hell. Sometimes I have wondered if there is any way to kind of make some retroactive things based on everything that has been gathered. I haven´t seen Trail or Total, but they are very likely great sources. But the sources that they use on these are not in line with anything and creates confusion.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ImporterExporter

Sanf

Registered User
Sep 8, 2012
1,944
902
I guess I could comment the 1912-1913 All-Star selection too

Again I´m not sure what it was. Out of memory there wasn´t such a East-West All-Star game like first season. Quebec played against Victoria and some sort of Eastern all-star played against Westminster-Vancouver All-Star. I can´t remember if Harris played and don´t know if that is important. Don´t have notes from those games.

Overall it does seem stronger from Harris without knowing what the "official" all-star from this season was.

There was midseason selection (made by Frank Patrick) though when it was thought that the East-West could have been played in the same fashion. This selection was...

The Province 24. February
Goal; Lindsay, Point; L. Patrick Cover; Johnson, Rover; Taylor, Right; Oatman, Centre; Dunderdale, Left; Poulin or Harris.

For the position of left wing it is hard to make a choice for nobody stands out now that Walter Smail is unavailable. However either Skinner Poulin or Fred Harris will be chosen if an all-star team is selected, because of their general usefulness to a team in checkinf rather than any unusual scoring ability. Smail, if fit would have the call, but he is out the question sine his recent injury.

Then I have the two made by sports editors in main western newspapers.

Victoria Daily Times 25. Feb 1913
A. P. Garvey News-Adverdiser Vancouver

Goal; Lindsay, Point; F. Patrick Cover; Johnson, Rover; L.Patrick , Right; Oatman, Centre; Dunderdale, Left; J. MacDonald. Sub; Taylor

Victoria Daily Times 1. Mar 1913
Sports Editor

1. Goal; Lindsay, Point; L. Patrick Cover; Johnson, Rover; Taylor, Right; Oatman, Centre; Dunderdale, Left; Harris

2. Goal; Lehman, Point; F.Patrick, Cover; Prodgers, Rover and Centre; R. MacDonald and C. Kendall, Wings; Tobin and Poulin, Sub; J. MacDonald

And lot of fan posted selections.
 
Last edited:

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,846
7,871
Oblivion Express
I guess I could comment the 1912-1913 All-Star selection too

Again I´m not sure what it was. Out of memory there wasn´t such a East-West All-Star game like first season. Quebec played against Victoria and some sort of Eastern all-star played against Westminster-Vancouver All-Star. I can´t remember if Harris played and don´t know if that is important. Don´t have notes from those games.

Overall it does seem stronger from Harris without knowing what the "official" all-star from this season was.

There was midseason selection (made by Frank Patrick) though when it was thought that the East-West could have been played in the same fashion. This selection was...

The Province 24. February
Goal; Lindsay, Point; L. Patrick Cover; Johnson, Rover; Taylor, Right; Oatman, Centre; Dunderdale, Left; Poulin or Harris.

For the position of left wing it is hard to make a choice for nobody stands out now that Walter Smail is unavailable. However either Skinner Poulin or Fred Harris will be chosen if an all-star team is selected, because of their general usefulness to a team in checkinf rather than any unusual scoring ability. Smail, if fit would have the call, but he is out the question sine his recent injury.

Then I have the two made by sports editors in main western newspapers.

Victoria Daily Times 25. Feb 1913
A. P. Garvey News-Adverdiser Vancouver

Goal; Lindsay, Point; F. Patrick Cover; Johnson, Rover; L.Patrick , Right; Oatman, Centre; Dunderdale, Left; J. MacDonald. Sub; Taylor

Victoria Daily Times 1. Mar 1913
Sports Editor

1. Goal; Lindsay, Point; L. Patrick Cover; Johnson, Rover; Taylor, Right; Oatman, Centre; Dunderdale, Left; Harris

2. Goal; Lehman, Point; F.Patrick, Cover; Prodgers, Rover and Centre; R. MacDonald and C. Kendall, Wings; Tobin and Poulin, Sub; J. MacDonald

And lot of fan posted selections.

I agree, 1912 isn't worth a ton. But the point was to show he was already being seen, in his rookie year as a plus player. If you read the bio from that year, it shows in detail that his inclusion with the team was due to his great back checking. So he was already being noticed as a strong defensive player before he developed a scoring tough.

3 additional AS nods though is a pretty big improvement of what was previously known. And the many highlights of his elite speed, checking and defensive abilities were plentiful, most not unearthed in any of the bio's I've seen.

When you're said to have no peer in back checking, over the length of time I found (a decade), you're an elite defensive player IMO. One of the most physical players of the era as cited. His speed shows as elite, clearly.

Here is the 1913 PCHA AS team: Clearly shown as Harris at LW: Also shows NHA AS's.

1 Mar 1913, 8 - The Victoria Daily Times at Newspapers.com

upload_2020-5-7_8-58-51.png
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Sanf

Sanf

Registered User
Sep 8, 2012
1,944
902
I agree, 1912 isn't worth a ton. But the point was to show he was already being seen, in his rookie year as a plus player. If you read the bio from that year, it shows in detail that his inclusion with the team was due to his great back checking. So he was already being noticed as a strong defensive player before he developed a scoring tough.

3 additional AS nods though is a pretty big improvement of what was previously known. And the many highlights of his elite speed, checking and defensive abilities were plentiful, most not unearthed in any of the bio's I've seen.

When you're said to have no peer in back checking, over the length of time I found (a decade), you're an elite defensive player IMO. One of the most physical players of the era as cited. His speed shows as elite, clearly.

Here is the 1913 PCHA AS team: Clearly shown as Harris at LW: Also shows NHA AS's.

View attachment 345288

I don´t disagree with that. That is the first of march from Victoria Daily Times and was made by the sport editor. The paper from that week had some random fan selections too IIRC.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ImporterExporter

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad