Dishing the Dirt

[ImporterExporter]

Apologies if this was mentioned in the these parts or well known but I don't recall having seen this:

In 1960, the Leafs led by Stafford Smythe (son of Conn) turned down a deal (offered by NYR) that would have sent Bob Pulford, Dick Duff, Ron Stewart, and Billy Harris to the Rangers for Andy Bathgate, Larry Popein, and Eddie Shack. Would have been a pretty big trade given the time period and reputations of a few of the guys there.

"The Leafs indicated any proposal meaning the loss of Pulford wouldn't get anywhere"

Apparently Smythe had Pulford, Mahovlich, and Brewer as untouchables

Windsor Star, 7 June, 1960

 

[The Macho King]

Gonna say it - Bathgate is a good looking dude in that picture.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Gonna say it - Bathgate is a good looking dude in that picture.

I instantly thought of a few Seinfeld scenes/quotes that fit this comment perfectly but yeah, hard to argue a good looking human, man or woman haha.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Full text of Iain Fyffe's "Evolution of the Rover" article

Via the way back machine: Hockey Prospectus | Pucks From The Past: The Changing Role of the Rover

Since it's from an old link, I'll just quote the entire thing here:

December 9, 2010
Pucks From The Past
The Changing Role of the Rover
by Iain Fyffe

Some of you have probably heard of the old rover position in hockey. In the early years of the game, a hockey team played with seven men on the ice at a time, rather than the six they do now. Typically called a “fourth forward”, the rover lined up behind the center, off to one side. The National Hockey Association (the direct predecessor to the National Hockey League) did away with the seventh man in 1911—a motion which at first met with some resistance, but passed when certain owners noted they could save money on salaries with one less man to pay. Hockey's second major league at the time, the Pacific Coast Hockey Association (PCHA), kept the seventh man until 1922, when it merged with the third major league, the Western Canada Hockey League (WCHL).

Some of hockey's earliest pure scorers played the rover position. If you're not familiar with players like Russell Bowie or Fred Taylor, educate yourselves. Of course, not all of the best scorers in those days played rover, some were centers such as Frank McGee or Ernie Russell or Marty Walsh or Newsy Lalonde. Herb Jordan, a gifted scorer and likely one of the best players not in the Hall of Fame, alternated between center and rover, as did Lorne Campbell. Overall, center is more represented among the best scorers of the day. But clearly, at least in the early days of the game, the rover was an offensive position, and was counted on to score goals—perhaps not quite to the same extent as centers, but more than wings.

But an interesting thing happened over the life of the position, specifically near its end in the PCHA. I don't think this has ever been documented before, but at a certain point the rover changed from being a primarily offensive position to a primarily defensive one. And we can pinpoint that change with frightening accuracy. In the 1917-18 season, the rover was an offensive position. In 1918-19, it was a defensive one. And although we're dealing with small leagues with very few players, where an individual player can have significant effect on a league's numbers, it does not appear that this is the case here. So to any quick-witted readers who thought “wasn't that around the time Cyclone Taylor stopped playing?” —you're close, but Taylor is actually support for the idea of this clean break, rather than evidence against it.

You can see this change when you look at positional scoring figures over time. Let's look at some numbers, starting with the 1899-1900 season of the Canadian Amateur Hockey League (CAHL), which eventually became the Eastern Canada Amateur Hockey Association (ECAHA), then the Eastern Canada Hockey Association (ECHA), which led to the NHA. Since the NHA dropped the rover in the same season the PCHA came into existence, we'll then continue on with the western league until we hit the end of the rover's time. This table shows the proportion of team goals scored by each position. For simplicity, left and right wings are averaged together, as are the two defensive positions. They key data we're looking at here are the center and rover numbers.

Proportion of Team Goals Scored by Position
Year League R C W W D D
1899-00 CAHL .234 .293 .197 .197 .040 .040
1900-01 CAHL .344 .178 .204 .204 .035 .035
1901-02 CAHL .318 .265 .169 .169 .040 .040
1902-03 CAHL .272 .306 .178 .178 .033 .033
1903-04 CAHL .309 .238 .184 .184 .043 .043
1904-05 CAHL .316 .269 .158 .158 .049 .049
1905-06 ECAHA .303 .239 .178 .178 .051 .051
1906-07 ECAHA .249 .308 .173 .173 .048 .048
1907-08 ECAHA .218 .291 .169 .169 .077 .077
1908-09 ECHA .213 .360 .146 .146 .068 .068
1909-10 NHA .243 .256 .182 .182 .068 .068
1910-11 NHA .223 .276 .187 .187 .064 .064
1911-12 PCHA .245 .276 .159 .159 .080 .080
1912-13 PCHA .168 .238 .176 .176 .122 .122
1913-14 PCHA .228 .244 .180 .180 .084 .084
1914-15 PCHA .208 .264 .184 .184 .080 .080
1915-16 PCHA .202 .226 .192 .192 .094 .094
1916-17 PCHA .194 .246 .194 .194 .086 .086
1917-18 PCHA .270 .220 .190 .190 .065 .065
1918-19 PCHA .143 .291 .225 .225 .058 .058
1919-20 PCHA .110 .309 .233 .233 .055 .055
1920-21 PCHA .128 .274 .224 .224 .075 .075
1921-22 PCHA .118 .286 .219 .219 .079 .079


Although there is certainly some year-to-year variation, since individual players can have a significant impact on these numbers, from 1899-1900 to 1917-18, rovers scored basically the same number of goals as centers. Rovers scored 25.0% of team goals over that time period, as opposed to 26.3% for centers. From 1918-19 to 1921-22, the figures are 12.5% for rovers and 29.0% for centers. Although we are dealing with a small number of seasons, the effect is dramatic, and as shown below, is supported by team personnel decisions. If we look at the data for centers and rovers graphically, the change becomes quite dramatic:

It's also worth noting that in 1911-12, the NHA's average goals per game dropped from 5.21 to 4.74, which is what you'd expect if you lose an offensive position. And in 1922-23, the PCHA's goals per game increased from 2.82 to 3.44, which is what you'd expect if you lose a defensive position. It seems clear that it was a deliberate choice on the part of managers to make the rover a defensive position.

Perhaps the thing that best illustrates the idea that this was the result of a choice rather than normal turnover of player personnel is Fred Taylor (and the other rovers) of the 1917-18 season. By far the biggest scoring threat in the PCHA, Taylor was the rover for Vancouver up to and including the 1917-18 season, when he led the league with 43 points in 18 games. In 1918-19, he again led the PCHA with 36 points in 20 games. But he was now playing center; Mickey MacKay had swapped positions with him, moving from center to rover.

This effect can be seen on the other PCHA lineups as well. In 1917-18, Portland played Tommy Dunderdale at center and Alf Barbour at rover. In 1918-19 (with the team back in Victoria), Dunderdale went to rover (and saw his scoring totals drop dramatically), while Barbour was a left wing. Barbour was a good forward, but was no defensive standout. The same switch happened in Seattle, where skilled scorer Frank Foyston moved from rover to left wing, while renowned defensive forward Jack Walker, often credited with inventing the poke-check, took over the fourth forward position. The effect is persistent, and the results obvious. In 1918, the rover became a third defenseman, rather than a fourth forward.

The question then arises: why was this done? Since to my knowledge this phenomenon has never been documented before, it will likely be difficult to find an answer to that question. PCHA magnates Lester Patrick and his brother Frank were hockey visionaries in many ways. Perhaps they saw that team defense was a more important facet of the game than had been realized up to that point? Indeed, they were the first to allow limited forward passing in the game, in the neutral zone, starting in 1913. This change began to move the game away from one of individual rushes to one of team offensive play. It makes sense that defending against individual rushes takes a different approach than defending against team passing play. The offensive side of the game was changing; why wouldn't the defensive side change as well?

Iain Fyffe is an author of Hockey Prospectus. You can contact Iain by clicking here or click here to see Iain's other articles.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Best article I've ever seen on Doug Harvey:

How Doug Harvey loafed his way to fame | Maclean's | FEBRUARY 15 1958

A few quotes, but it's worth reading the whole thing (or at least the first half):

For years fans and critics lambasted this Canadien defenseman for laziness. But, without straining a muscle, he dawdled his way onto six all-star teams and into one of hockey’s top salaries"

Ten years ago there was some doubt that Doug Harvey would make the grade with the Montreal Canadiens because he was inclined to loaf. Six years ago, although it was noted that he was inclined to loaf, Doug Harvey was voted to the National Hockey League's all-star team, which he has made every year since. This season hockey experts are fondling the notion that, although he is inclined to loaf. Doug Harvey is possibly the best defenseman in the history of the NHL.

Whether he's the best or one of the best, the remarkable thing is that Harvey has never changed his basic approach to the game or his style of playing it. "If 1 w;as loafing the year 1 broke in,” he says, "I'm loafing now'.” He has made the transition from the doghouse to the penthouse on his ow n terms, and he has won universal acclaim by continuing to do things his way rather than by conforming to the mold. For example, in his early years he exasperated his coach and outraged the paying guests by carrying the puck across the very threshold of his own goal in trying to elude enemy forecheckers. The coach, the late Dick Irvin, unable to break Harvey of committing this fundamental error, told him he'd be fined one hundred dollars every time an opponent stole the puck from him and scored a goal as a resuit of what the coach felt was Harvey’s carelessness. No one ever did. Nowadays, when Harvey carries the puck across his own doorstep, the fans cheer his wonderful dexterity, and pressbox occupants applaud him as one of the best stickhandlers in the game. Coach Toe Blake is not enthralled by the spectacle but he is resigned to it with the heavy philosophy that “you can break the law just as long as you don't get caught.”

 

[BenchBrawl]

Best article I've ever seen on Doug Harvey:

How Doug Harvey loafed his way to fame | Maclean's | FEBRUARY 15 1958

A few quotes, but it's worth reading the whole thing (or at least the first half):

For years fans and critics lambasted this Canadien defenseman for laziness. But, without straining a muscle, he dawdled his way onto six all-star teams and into one of hockey’s top salaries"

Ten years ago there was some doubt that Doug Harvey would make the grade with the Montreal Canadiens because he was inclined to loaf. Six years ago, although it was noted that he was inclined to loaf, Doug Harvey was voted to the National Hockey League's all-star team, which he has made every year since. This season hockey experts are fondling the notion that, although he is inclined to loaf. Doug Harvey is possibly the best defenseman in the history of the NHL.

Whether he's the best or one of the best, the remarkable thing is that Harvey has never changed his basic approach to the game or his style of playing it. "If 1 w;as loafing the year 1 broke in,” he says, "I'm loafing now'.” He has made the transition from the doghouse to the penthouse on his ow n terms, and he has won universal acclaim by continuing to do things his way rather than by conforming to the mold. For example, in his early years he exasperated his coach and outraged the paying guests by carrying the puck across the very threshold of his own goal in trying to elude enemy forecheckers. The coach, the late Dick Irvin, unable to break Harvey of committing this fundamental error, told him he'd be fined one hundred dollars every time an opponent stole the puck from him and scored a goal as a resuit of what the coach felt was Harvey’s carelessness. No one ever did. Nowadays, when Harvey carries the puck across his own doorstep, the fans cheer his wonderful dexterity, and pressbox occupants applaud him as one of the best stickhandlers in the game. Coach Toe Blake is not enthralled by the spectacle but he is resigned to it with the heavy philosophy that “you can break the law just as long as you don't get caught.”

That's the article I told you about where I red that Kenny Reardon liked to rush the puck and Montreal fans initially hated Harvey because he didn't do it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That's the article I told you about where I red that Kenny Reardon liked to rush the puck and Montreal fans initially hated Harvey because he didn't do it.

oh...
please don't tell me that you sent me the link way back when and I forgot about it

 

[BenchBrawl]

oh...
please don't tell me that you sent me the link way back when and I forgot about it

I don't know if I sent you the link. It's been posted on the site before by someone else. Doesn't matter, it's worth reposting.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't know if I sent you the link. It's been posted on the site before by someone. Doesn't matter, worth reposting.

So it was

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 2
2009 Top 100 Update Preliminary Discussion Thread

 

[BenchBrawl]

So it was

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 2
2009 Top 100 Update Preliminary Discussion Thread

And you posted on both pages too

I guess at some point we forget more than we know.

 

[The Macho King]

From that article:

Another time he was asked if he ever had salary disputes with Frank Selke, the Canadiens' managing director. “Not very often,” replied Harvey blandly. “Just once a year.”

 

[ImporterExporter]

Best article I've ever seen on Doug Harvey:

How Doug Harvey loafed his way to fame | Maclean's | FEBRUARY 15 1958

A few quotes, but it's worth reading the whole thing (or at least the first half):

For years fans and critics lambasted this Canadien defenseman for laziness. But, without straining a muscle, he dawdled his way onto six all-star teams and into one of hockey’s top salaries"

Ten years ago there was some doubt that Doug Harvey would make the grade with the Montreal Canadiens because he was inclined to loaf. Six years ago, although it was noted that he was inclined to loaf, Doug Harvey was voted to the National Hockey League's all-star team, which he has made every year since. This season hockey experts are fondling the notion that, although he is inclined to loaf. Doug Harvey is possibly the best defenseman in the history of the NHL.

Whether he's the best or one of the best, the remarkable thing is that Harvey has never changed his basic approach to the game or his style of playing it. "If 1 w;as loafing the year 1 broke in,” he says, "I'm loafing now'.” He has made the transition from the doghouse to the penthouse on his ow n terms, and he has won universal acclaim by continuing to do things his way rather than by conforming to the mold. For example, in his early years he exasperated his coach and outraged the paying guests by carrying the puck across the very threshold of his own goal in trying to elude enemy forecheckers. The coach, the late Dick Irvin, unable to break Harvey of committing this fundamental error, told him he'd be fined one hundred dollars every time an opponent stole the puck from him and scored a goal as a resuit of what the coach felt was Harvey’s carelessness. No one ever did. Nowadays, when Harvey carries the puck across his own doorstep, the fans cheer his wonderful dexterity, and pressbox occupants applaud him as one of the best stickhandlers in the game. Coach Toe Blake is not enthralled by the spectacle but he is resigned to it with the heavy philosophy that “you can break the law just as long as you don't get caught.”

People talk so much about his defensive brilliance but his ability to transition the puck has always struck me as very, very, good.

Also, another reason to love Toe Blake. He understood, above ego, or old guard philosophy, that if it worked, it worked.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Quite a bit of new material highlighting Lalonde's all around play and back checking efforts. Only through 1912 on a fairly casual search and have found numerous entries. The contemporary praise for him as a hockey and lacrosse star by this point is significant. One section of a paper talked about Lalonde "making $3 a minute" as a significant sum. Of course we know that was a considerable amount 100 years ago.

 

[tinyzombies]

Best article I've ever seen on Doug Harvey:

How Doug Harvey loafed his way to fame | Maclean's | FEBRUARY 15 1958

A few quotes, but it's worth reading the whole thing (or at least the first half):

For years fans and critics lambasted this Canadien defenseman for laziness. But, without straining a muscle, he dawdled his way onto six all-star teams and into one of hockey’s top salaries"

Ten years ago there was some doubt that Doug Harvey would make the grade with the Montreal Canadiens because he was inclined to loaf. Six years ago, although it was noted that he was inclined to loaf, Doug Harvey was voted to the National Hockey League's all-star team, which he has made every year since. This season hockey experts are fondling the notion that, although he is inclined to loaf. Doug Harvey is possibly the best defenseman in the history of the NHL.

Whether he's the best or one of the best, the remarkable thing is that Harvey has never changed his basic approach to the game or his style of playing it. "If 1 w;as loafing the year 1 broke in,” he says, "I'm loafing now'.” He has made the transition from the doghouse to the penthouse on his ow n terms, and he has won universal acclaim by continuing to do things his way rather than by conforming to the mold. For example, in his early years he exasperated his coach and outraged the paying guests by carrying the puck across the very threshold of his own goal in trying to elude enemy forecheckers. The coach, the late Dick Irvin, unable to break Harvey of committing this fundamental error, told him he'd be fined one hundred dollars every time an opponent stole the puck from him and scored a goal as a resuit of what the coach felt was Harvey’s carelessness. No one ever did. Nowadays, when Harvey carries the puck across his own doorstep, the fans cheer his wonderful dexterity, and pressbox occupants applaud him as one of the best stickhandlers in the game. Coach Toe Blake is not enthralled by the spectacle but he is resigned to it with the heavy philosophy that “you can break the law just as long as you don't get caught.”

My mother's husband's father was one of his drinking buddies. He once said he could have done everything Orr did if he wanted to.

“I used to wonder when I’d take the puck near our net and look for a man breaking for a pass if maybe the fans and the newspapermen were right and I was wrong,” Harvey recalls. “I was tempted to change my style and become the great rusher. That’s the best way to make an all-star team and make the fans love you. Just keep rushing up the ice. In Montreal they remember Kenny Reardon for that. He was a terrific competitor and had a lot of spirit. They loved his slam-bang style of rushing and he looked great. But I just don’t play that type of game. When we’re a goal up my first thought is to protect the lead. I never changed my style.”

===

Harvey seems to go about everything he does in hockey with this stolid purposefulness. “Wasted motion will hurt a team as much as it will hurt a player," he says. “Hockey, in spite of what you hear these days, is a scientific game. Teams that have no system lose. Teams with a negative system lose. Like Toronto until this season: their defensemen were always rushing and their forwards were always backchecking, exactly the reverse of what their very names dictate they should be doing.
“With the Canadiens I’ve found that the nights we’re playing badly are the nights the defensemen are rushing all the time. Their job is to defend and to feed the puck to the forwards—head-manning it, we call it. Toronto even had a rule that a defenseman couldn't pass the puck in his own end. Why in the world should a man carry the puck when the rules permit him to pass it half the length of the ice?
“The Canadiens win because we have i positive system — move the puck around, play your position. As soon as a guy comes to check me I know that he had to leave his position to do it. That means that we’ve got a man loose in his area. I immediately feed our man there the puck. He's got to be there because that’s our system, and this is a uam game—it’s not a game for individuals.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Highly recommend this interview with Aurele Joliat in 1984, roughly 2 years before his death. Wide ranging topics.

Star Phoenix, 17 Mar 1984

Star-Phoenix 17 Mar 1984, page 69 - Newspapers.com

View the digital scanned newspaper from Star-Phoenix dated 17 Mar 1984, page 69.

www.newspapers.com

 

[ImporterExporter]

The hockey players in the "olden days" loved a nice suit and hat.

Also, neat to note that Lalonde was chiefly responsible for getting and developing the Cook brothers out west, along with a few other future NHL'ers.

Found this picture while digging up different portions of Lalonde's career/life.

Windsor Star, 17 Dec 1928

 

[ImporterExporter]

Neat team picture for the Saskatoon Sheiks squad, from 1923-24.

Some big names there.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Found this really cool interview with Lalonde in 1953, by Eric Whitehead from The Province, 17 Jan 1953 (Vancouver paper). with some neat artwork. Mainly focused on his early childhood, getting into lacrosse and hockey. One of the better finds to date on Newsy.

 

[nabby12]

Found this really cool interview with Lalonde in 1953, by Eric Whitehead from The Province, 17 Jan 1953 (Vancouver paper). with some neat artwork. Mainly focused on his early childhood, getting into lacrosse and hockey. One of the better finds to date on Newsy.


View attachment 515854
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View attachment 515856
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Wonderful find!

 

[ImporterExporter]

Wonderful find!

Thanks, I thought so. I'm just putting the finishing touches on the Lalonde bio (on page 2 of the 2022 bio thread, best viewed with dark background). Hope to have it done by the end of the week. He's been one of the most interesting research projects I've done as part of the ATD. An absolutely dominant all around athlete, even beyond hockey. Just found an article recently where he set a course (golf) record under par!

 

[Sturminator]

Can we re-post original research posted in the ATD threads here please?

I'm too old for another bush league server pointer apocalypse.

 

[overpass]

Elmer Ferguson’s all star team of the last 10 years, 1933.

Elmer Ferguson's 10 year all-star team, 1933

Clipping found in The Sault Star published in Sault St. Marie, Ontario, Canada on 3/20/1933. Elmer Ferguson's 10 year all-star team, 1933

www.newspapers.com

G: Clint Benedict
D: Eddie Shore
D: Ching Johnson
LW: Howie Morenz
C: Frank Nighbor
RW: Bill Cook

 

[tinyzombies]

 

[BraveCanadian]

View attachment 660960

Great find

 

[Sturminator]

Apologies if this was mentioned in the these parts or well known but I don't recall having seen this:

In 1960, the Leafs led by Stafford Smythe (son of Conn) turned down a deal (offered by NYR) that would have sent Bob Pulford, Dick Duff, Ron Stewart, and Billy Harris to the Rangers for Andy Bathgate, Larry Popein, and Eddie Shack. Would have been a pretty big trade given the time period and reputations of a few of the guys there.

"The Leafs indicated any proposal meaning the loss of Pulford wouldn't get anywhere"

Apparently Smythe had Pulford, Mahovlich, and Brewer as untouchables

Surprising no one. Those three were all incredible players, and Bathgate wasn't going to command great value on the open market in spite of his tremendous talent because the Rangers had essentially no bargaining power, and he was also aging.