Dishing the Dirt

[The Macho King]

My gut says Malone is the most defensible. As far as Suchy - I'm more forgiving in general there because often during a game Dmen can play both sides - position doesn't change dramatically and it's often a coach's decision. I'm sure we could find some off-hand RD that would play LD if there were enough righties on their team.

Brind'Amour is fine as LW, but if you're drafting him to be a LW you drafted him about 100 picks early (whereas he was good value for his work as a C).

Bergeron has some experience at RW in international play and was drafted primarily for chemistry. I'll let the voters decide how convincing the small international sample is vis a vis the rest of his career.

Bure is similar in that I *think* he played LW some in his early international career, but I never considered him a LW. That feels like a pick to attempt to put a strong player at a relatively strong position into a relatively weak position and hope we all gloss over it (which is in contrast to Bergeron as I think RW is relatively strong and the chemistry fit is *much* more defensible, even if it's a bit of an incomplete).

Hawerchuk seems pretty indefensible. His entire peak/prime was at C.

Don't know enough about MacKay to judge.

 

[Dreakmur]

My gut says Malone is the most defensible. As far as Suchy - I'm more forgiving in general there because often during a game Dmen can play both sides - position doesn't change dramatically and it's often a coach's decision. I'm sure we could find some off-hand RD that would play LD if there were enough righties on their team.

Brind'Amour is fine as LW, but if you're drafting him to be a LW you drafted him about 100 picks early (whereas he was good value for his work as a C).

Bergeron has some experience at RW in international play and was drafted primarily for chemistry. I'll let the voters decide how convincing the small international sample is vis a vis the rest of his career.

Bure is similar in that I *think* he played LW some in his early international career, but I never considered him a LW. That feels like a pick to attempt to put a strong player at a relatively strong position into a relatively weak position and hope we all gloss over it (which is in contrast to Bergeron as I think RW is relatively strong and the chemistry fit is *much* more defensible, even if it's a bit of an incomplete).

Hawerchuk seems pretty indefensible. His entire peak/prime was at C.

Don't know enough about MacKay to judge.

Seems that a lot of the Soviet defensemen player their wrong sides. I was considering Ragulin with the Burns pick, and found that despite being left handed he was almost always lined up on the right side. Same with most defensemen I watched in videos.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

It's kind of a case of topic-drift here, but I'll play...

Seems that a lot of the Soviet defensemen player their wrong sides. I was considering Ragulin with the Burns pick, and found that despite being left handed he was almost always lined up on the right.

... so imagine how much better it works out for a D if one of them plays the side matching their handedness- particularly on a North American ice surface.

That could be part of the issue. The wider international ice surface mighn't impose the same penalty for two defender-sticks turned the same way on a pairing.

Ragulin is listed as an LD in this year's AT-draft. As he was in 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014 (I stopped looking at this point...)

 

[Dreakmur]

It's kind of a case of topic-drift here, but I'll play...... so imagine how much better it works out for a D if one of them plays the side matching their handedness- particularly on a North American ice surface.

That could be part of the issue. The wider international ice surface mighn't impose the same penalty for two defender-sticks turned the same way on a pairing.

Ragulin is listed as an LD in this year's AT-draft. As he was in 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014 (I stopped looking at this point...)

I’ve been coaching for the last 20 years, and most is that time spent specifically working with defensemen. I could go on for hours about the benefits and hindrances of playing either side. So much depends on the style of the player and the focus of the team system.

 

[The Macho King]

I’ve been coaching for the last 20 years, and most is that time spent specifically working with defensemen. I could go on for hours about the benefits and hindrances of playing either side. So much depends on the style of the player and the focus of the team system.

I just wonder how much of it is due to the amount of RHD versus LHD though. Like - if a coach had his druthers every time, would he ever line up a guy on his off-side in the defensive zone?

Probably less of an issue with non-curved sticks since you can still get some good sauce on your backhand, but I feel like when it's done now, it's out of necessity rather than design. For instance - how many RHD do you know that play LD? I can't think of a single one unless its a weird team that has like 4 regular RHD.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Just to put it down somewhere before it's wiped from memory. 1940 Rangers D pairs were Pratt - Heller and Patrick - Coulter

 

[Dreakmur]

I just wonder how much of it is due to the amount of RHD versus LHD though. Like - if a coach had his druthers every time, would he ever line up a guy on his off-side in the defensive zone?

Probably less of an issue with non-curved sticks since you can still get some good sauce on your backhand, but I feel like when it's done now, it's out of necessity rather than design. For instance - how many RHD do you know that play LD? I can't think of a single one unless its a weird team that has like 4 regular RHD.

My team has 5 LD and 1 RD. The RD plays the left side.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Rate these potential out-of-position plays (presented alphabetically), from most to least credible...

Patrice Bergeron (rw when Primary Position is Center)
Rod Brind'Amour (lw when Primary Position is Center)
Pavel Bure (lw when Primary Position is Right Wing)
Dale Hawerchuk (rw when Primary Position is Center)
Mickey MacKay (rw when Primary Position is Center)
Joe Malone (lw when Primary Position is Center)
Jan Suchý (ld when Primary Position is Right D)

My gut says Malone is the most defensible. As far as Suchy - I'm more forgiving in general there because often during a game Dmen can play both sides - position doesn't change dramatically and it's often a coach's decision. I'm sure we could find some off-hand RD that would play LD if there were enough righties on their team.

Brind'Amour is fine as LW, but if you're drafting him to be a LW you drafted him about 100 picks early (whereas he was good value for his work as a C).

Bergeron has some experience at RW in international play and was drafted primarily for chemistry. I'll let the voters decide how convincing the small international sample is vis a vis the rest of his career.

Bure is similar in that I *think* he played LW some in his early international career, but I never considered him a LW. That feels like a pick to attempt to put a strong player at a relatively strong position into a relatively weak position and hope we all gloss over it (which is in contrast to Bergeron as I think RW is relatively strong and the chemistry fit is *much* more defensible, even if it's a bit of an incomplete).

Hawerchuk seems pretty indefensible. His entire peak/prime was at C.

Don't know enough about MacKay to judge.

Agree that Hawerchuk is a no-sell.
Don't think I can buy Bergeron/RW so much, either. An entire regular season, against Hall-of-Fame type pairings? No- I'm not feeling it...
Malone at LW could work, but when he did it for real, he was a linemate of Lalonde. So- I think he would need a special type of Center. A skilled guy with plenty of snarl. Lalonde. Messier. That kind of player. If that circumstance isn't there, I don't think you can close that deal.
This is just surface-impression stuff... but I view Suchý as preferring the R-side, but would be capable at L and would pitch in there for the sake of the team. Don't think you get the last ounce of his ability, though.
Brind'Amour's optimal use is Center- we're in agreement on that. I'll say this (minority opinion though it may be)- I don't think he's as good a Center as most people think he is... and I don't think he's as sub-optimal a Left Wing as most people think he is.
I hope I'm not type-casting by saying that I view Bure as close enough to a mirror-image of Ovechkin (for peak skill, anyway)- that he's just so talented that I can see him flipping over to LW full time, just the same way Ovechkin did by going over to RW that one year.

As I said before- happy to have others weigh in on this topic!

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Apparently in 1939-40, players didn't get assists for "passes accepted back of the centre zone". If this was a rule that wasn't only in place for that season, might be why D scored so little in comparison to F when comparing to modern numbers.

 

[VanIslander]

Patrice Bergeron (rw when Primary Position is Center)

No.

Rod Brind'Amour (lw when his primary Position is Center)

Of course. He was great as a LW pp guy in Philly.

Pavel Bure (lw when Primary Position is Right Wing)

Some Russians had long great preNHL careers as Soviets, but Pavel aint one of them.

Dale Hawerchuk (rw when Primary Position is Center)

Is this a joke?

 

[Dreakmur]

Hello everyone- who's willing to help out by addressing this issue?:

Rate these potential out-of-position plays (presented alphabetically), from most to least credible...

Patrice Bergeron (rw when Primary Position is Center)
Rod Brind'Amour (lw when Primary Position is Center)
Pavel Bure (lw when Primary Position is Right Wing)
Dale Hawerchuk (rw when Primary Position is Center)
Mickey MacKay (rw when Primary Position is Center)
Joe Malone (lw when Primary Position is Center)
Jan Suchý (ld when Primary Position is Right D)

[I'm going to guess that the cases for Abel @ LW, Delvecchio considered similarly, and Maltsev @ RW are something in the realm of "settled law" around here- but if anyone thinks we should re-think stare decicis at this time, feel free to chime in.]

I think a player should have at least one full season of ATD relevance before you can even consider him at that position. How that player played in those seasons is a good indication of how he would perform in that spot. A few games here or there doesn't cut it for me.

Patrice Bergeron has like a dozen games on RW. That's not enough for me. Most importantly, moving him to the wing takes away his only two ATD-worthy skills.

Brind'Amour had almost two different careers - a good scoring LW and a great defensive C. I think he's acceptable on LW, but like Bergeron, his two most ATD-worthy skills are only useful in the middle.

Pavel Bure.... how many games did he play LW with the Soviets? If he was a LW in his 1990 and 1991 Soviet league seasons, I think he's fully a LW/RW.

Dale Hawerchuk, like Bergeron, played a few games on the wing. I don't buy it.

Mickey MacKay was a true multi-position player, wasn't he? I thought he played multiple full seasons at all of center, rover, and right wing.

Joe Malone, for example, played one full season on LW, and it was one of his top few seasons.

Jan Suchy... have no idea how many games he played where, so I'd need to see a breakdown first.

edit - looks like Bure was RW in his 1991 Soviet league season, so he's probably a no-go for me.

 

[Theokritos]

looks like Bure was RW in his 1991 Soviet league season, so he's probably a no-go for me.

Apparently he played both positions in 89-90 (but more RW than LW) and then RW in 90-91.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Mickey MacKay was a true multi-position player, wasn't he? I thought he played multiple full seasons at all of center, rover, and right wing.

Mackay - Center until 1917-18 when Frank had him and Taylor switch positions
Mackay - Rover until they got rid of the rover
Mackay - RW when they had Frank Boucher

 

[ImporterExporter]

Well I found this gem when casually poking around for Russell Bowie and Blair Russel info.

From Montreal Gazette, Jan 19th 1905. Game was played on 18th. Victorias (Bowie/Russel's team) defeated Montreal HC 8-5.

Absolutely love the writing style.

 

[ImporterExporter]

From Ottawa Citizen - Jan 30th, 1911: (from game on 28th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

 

[overpass]

Charles H Good, who wrote the article for Macleans in 1925 about the greatest hockey players in Canada's history, also wrote an article about the greatest football players in Canada's history in the same year.

Harvey Pulford, Eddie Gerard, and Lionel Conacher were among the many players mentioned.

All-Time, All-Star Canadian Rugbyists | Maclean's | November 15TH 1925

Harvey Pulford, an Ottawa stalwart, of the football field of some years ago, was one of the outstanding men of his day. He combined gameness, natural aptitude and football brains to an extraordinary degree and no follower of the gridiron ever was better fitted to meet an emergency, to grasp it. twist it to his own ends and exploit it. He had an almost uncanny faculty for sensing new combinations, and his brain moved lightning swift to counteract them.

Eddie Gerard was another good one—destined, perhaps, to be the greatest of them all, had not his turning professional hockey-player cut him off from football at the height of his form. Eddie had almost everything a great halfback needs; and it is an open question whether football missed Gerard more than Gerard missed football. If he had realized how much it was going to mean to him to be barred from the gridiron, I don’t believe Eddie would ever have made the jump. Those who believe that professionalism in one branch of sport shouldn’t mean professionalism in all branches have a fine argument in their favor in the case of Eddie Gerard—a man who played hockey for money, but who would have paid for the privilege of playing another season or so football. He certainly loved to play it; and fans of that day certainly loved to watch him do it. They got action every minute he was on the field.

The author name-drops Conacher in several places, no doubt expecting his audience to be very familiar with Lionel Conacher the football player. He mentions Conacher's strength

"Men like Snyder and Conacher, it must be admitted, possessed in their prime, a power in this respect that neither Leadley nor Batstone can lay claim to, but it must be remembered that our Canadian game does not parallel the demand made in the American game for this quality on the part of star back field players."

And Conacher's kicking ability.

"Incidentally Mr. Hughes pays a fine compliment to Conacher, as it was because of the latter’s ability to kick a long ball that Evans would not risk forfeiting the ball by resorting to the old army game, with the Tricolor only leading by a point."

And he ends up naming Conacher to his all-time team of Canadian football players.

"I HAVE been asked to nominate an AllStar, All-Time team and as it has always been my policy to do anything to oblige, here it is: Flying wing, Glad Murphy, Argonauts; half backs, Conacher, Argonauts; Batstone, Queens; Snyder, Varsity; quarter-back, Pete Campbell, Varsity; Snap, Bull Ritchie, Varsity: Inside wings, Ross Craig, Hamilton. Joe Wright, sr., Argos; Middle wings, Red McKelvey, Queens, Dud Ross, McGill; Outside wings, Cap Fear, Argos, Bud Thomas, Queens;Spares:Leadley, Queens, Hal DeGruchy, Toronto R. and A.A.; Smirle Lawson, Varsity; Montgomery, McGill; Joe Breen, Argo.; Quinn, Hamilton; Evans, Queens; Barrow, Hamilton; “Red” Ryan, Ottawa; Stronach, Ottawa; “Kasey” Baldwin, Varsity; and that’s that."

 

[ImporterExporter]

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 6th, 1913 (game played on 4th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Pete Green is clearly the architect of the early Ottawa dynasty's system that led to quite a bit of dominance. Rarely, if ever do you see such detailed information from this era about a coach's impact on the game. Clearly, Green was a coach well ahead of his times.

 

[ImporterExporter]

TO THIS OLD RANGER,

I highly, highly recommend anyone interested in a funny read to give that a gander.

Art Coulter soured on hockey later in life......

But what about Gordie Howe? "Stinko."

Bobby Hull? "I saw him play once in Chicago. Give him to the birds. Slap shot. Idiocy."

Wayne Gretzky? "A Johnny-come-lately, right? I know of him. I've seen him play. I wondered why he wasn't on his ass all the time, there's nothing to him."

The payroll for the '40 Rangers, he said, was $77,000. "Davey Kerr won the Vezina Trophy," Coulter said, "and Lester Patrick wanted to cut his salary. Kerr told him to take Madison Square Garden and shove it. He retired.

"Old Lester Patrick was a stupid ass."

 

[Sturminator]

I think a player should have at least one full season of ATD relevance before you can even consider him at that position. How that player played in those seasons is a good indication of how he would perform in that spot. A few games here or there doesn't cut it for me.
...
Brind'Amour had almost two different careers - a good scoring LW and a great defensive C. I think he's acceptable on LW, but like Bergeron, his two most ATD-worthy skills are only useful in the middle.

Brindy's penalty-killing is certainly not wasted on the wing, nor is his ability to whack at pucks in front of the net on the powerplay (where he's a useful 2nd unit guy at 40 teams - though not so much in smaller formats). But at even strength, yeah, playing him on the LW just gives me a sad. Rod Brind'amour's ATD status is an interesting thing...something less than the sum of its parts, I think. You draft him to play either LW or C, not both, and yet he consistently gets drafted as though positional flexibility were some kind of selling point.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Hamby Shore (played LW at the time) missed Pete Green's first game as HC in 1909, because during his shift at his "regular" job, at the Interior Department, a heavy file fell and smashed his hand. The good ole days!

Montreal Gazette, Jan 6th, 1909
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Getliffe is pretty physical

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I found the missing GM-voted All-Star team for 1928-29!

TORONTO, March 21 - Writing in the Globe, Bert Perry says: "Only one member of the Maple Leafs - Irvin Bailey - has been selected for the 1928-29 all-star N.H.L. team. The selection is made by the votes of the various managers in the circuit, no manager being able to vote for a player of his own team. The result of the polling shows Worters of the Americans in goal; Clancy, Ottawa, and Shore, Boston, defense; Bailey, Toronto, right wing; Morenz, Canadiens, center and Joliet, Canadiens, left wing. The highest possible vote a player can get is nine, and Clancy got 8, Worters and Shore seven each, and the rest five each. Other players and votes were as follows: Hainsworth, 2; Thompson, Bruins, 1; Mantha 5; Conacher 1; Bill Cook, 3; Oliver, 1; Ward, 1; Boucher, Rangers, 1; Stewart, 1; Hay, 2; Kilrea, 2. The Hart Trophy award for the Most Valuable Player in the league is likely to go to Roy Worters.

22 Mar 1929, 11 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Note that Worters did, in fact, go on to win the Hart Trophy.

To organize the data in a easier fashion:

Goal:

1. Roy Worters 7
2. George Hainsworth 2
3. Tiny Thompson 1
Note: All votes accounted for.

Defense:

1. King Clancy 8
2. Eddie Shore 7
3. Sylvio Mantha 5
4. Lionel Conacher 1
Note: These should add up to 20, but there is an extra vote

Left Wing:

1. Aurel Joliet 5
2. George Hay 2
3. Hec Kilrea 2
Note: There is 1 missing vote

Center:

1. Howie Morenz 5
2. Frank Boucher 1
3. Nels Stewart 1
Note: There are 3 missing votes

Right Wing:

1. Ace Bailey 5
2. Bill Cook 3
3. Harry Oliver 1
4. Jimmy Ward 1
Note: All votes accounted for.

If anyone has access to the Globe and Mail archives, you could check the March 21, 1929 edition to see if it also contains these small discrepancies.

 

[Habsfan18]

I’m thinking about getting a newspapers.com subscription - or at least trying the free trial to check it out. I’m assuming it has much more to offer than google newspapers?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I’m thinking about getting a newspapers.com subscription - or at least trying the free trial to check it out. I’m assuming it has much more to offer than google newspapers?

Yes, more newspapers, better search engine. You get a free 7 day trial. Then if you don't cancel, they charge $75 for the next 6 months. So I'm trying to get as much use as I can in the next week...

 

[Habsfan18]

Yes, more newspapers, better search engine. You get a free 7 day trial. Then if you don't cancel, they charge $75 for the next 6 months. So I'm trying to get as much use as I can in the next week...

And that’s more like $100 here in Canada. Still not bad for 6 months I suppose ($20ish CDN per month). But being temporarily laid off right now I’ll try the free trial and cancel before the 7th day, then if I liked it I can just re-subscribe later in the summer or fall. I’m sure I’ll get good use out of it during the next week.