Did Wendel Clark deserve his banner raised?

[Gallagbi]

I wouldn't blame all of those awful Fletcher deals on the fans. Remember Damphousee for Grant Fuhr? Oh boy that one sucked.

I'm not blaming all, but I definitely believe all of the signs in the arena, non-stop chatter/articles/call-in shows on that one pushed a deal.

Doesn't excuse it, just shows how many fans regarded Clark at the time.

 

[Hockeyholic]

I know people who never warmed up to Sundin because of that trade.

Sundin wasn't a guy who would regularly fight. He didn't wear his emotions on his sleeves like the almighty Clark. Ultimately I believe that's why he was treated poorly.

Nonetheless, this trade was a steal for the Leafs.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Can I get an age check on you, possible?

23...

 

[Hockeyholic]

I wouldn't blame all of those awful Fletcher deals on the fans. Remember Damphousee for Grant Fuhr? Oh boy that one sucked.

Wasn't it Damphousse for Fuhr & Anderson?

 

[Gallagbi]

Wasn't it Damphousse for Fuhr & Anderson?

Yup.

 

[socko]

Wasn't it Damphousse for Fuhr & Anderson?

This was the entire trade. Very bad day for a Leafs fan.

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire
Glenn Anderson
Craig Berube
Grant Fuhr


Edmonton Oilers acquire
Vincent Damphousse
Peter Ing
Luke Richardson
Scott Thornton
cash
future considerations

 

[Mr Hockey]

23...

ah ok, ... Wendel was loved like the "big 3" combined ...

 

[WWB]

I don't necessarily believe duration in blue & white should have a huge impact on jersey retirement.

17 played a heck of a lot more games on the Leafs compared with 93. Not one person can dare argue Clark had a bigger impact ( Or was better) than Gilmour.

I know that's a bad example. I'm just saying Clark was never a top five player in the game. Cujo waa a top five goalie when he played on the Leafs. CuJo also stole multiple series. When is his # getting retired?

You may believe CuJo doesn't deserve retirement. After all, he bolted to Detroit. That's why we have message boards. To debate.

If the Leafs retire the # of Roberts, CuJo at minimum, I'll have less of a problem with 17.

The bolded is maybe the most ridiculous thing I might have read on this website and I've read some doozies. I love Roberts and Cujo as much as the next guy and appreciate their contributions while they were here, but Wendel Clark is/was probably the most beloved athlete this city has ever had.

From the day he was drafted first overall until the day Doug Gilmour showed up Wendel Clark was literally the only reason to even go and watch the leafs play. He wore his heart on his sleeve and brought his hard hat and lunch pale to work and hit and fought all the toughest guys in the league and scored goals and bled blue all over the ice.

Wendel doesn't have his number retired because of the stats he put up...he has his number retired because he's Wendel bleeping Clark, arguably the most famous, beloved Leaf all time. His number is retired because he's a Maple Leafs icon. His number is retired because of the uniqueness of his situation, and rightfully so.

I am a Leafs fan today because of Wendel Clark.

 

[ITM]

Originally Posted by hockeyfanatic89
You may believe CuJo doesn't deserve retirement. After all, he bolted to Detroit. That's why we have message boards. To debate.

If the Leafs retire the # of Roberts, CuJo at minimum, I'll have less of a problem with 17.

Bolted, as in who articulated why the Wings were a better fit for him than a Toronto club about to make him the highest paid goalie in the league in a city that threw itself as completely into him as into WC?

The word we're looking for is betrayed, not bolted.

Clark gets his number raised because of the sheer output of heart and soul - things that can't be measured except by heart and soul - during this club's most abysmal period (minus the Gilmour era) leaves one searching for appropriate descriptors and superlatives. Only that act expresses the appropriate gratitude.

I'd want Jiri Chra's number retired before Joseph's thank you very much.

 

[crump]

This was the entire trade. Very bad day for a Leafs fan.

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire
Glenn Anderson
Craig Berube
Grant Fuhr


Edmonton Oilers acquire
Vincent Damphousse
Peter Ing
Luke Richardson
Scott Thornton
cash
future considerations

Don't forget, Fuhr got us Andreychuck (and a first round pick - Kenny Jonsson)
It also solidified our goaltending enough to let Potvin develop one more year. Even trade in the end at least.

On Clark....it makes me weep to see the question even asked.

 

[Barilko14]

23...

This explains why all your arguments were plucked right off of hockeydb.

You have no real understanding of the Ballard years, how hockey was different in the late 80s and early 90s or even Clark as a player, seeing you likely only saw him at the tail end of his career when he was a 33/34 yo in a 60 yo body.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

We doing age checks now in the thread?

What's the cut off for someone's opinion on Clark to matter? Have we established a threshold?

 

[BayStreetBully]

The bolded is maybe the most ridiculous thing I might have read on this website and I've read some doozies. I love Roberts and Cujo as much as the next guy and appreciate their contributions while they were here, but Wendel Clark is/was probably the most beloved athlete this city has ever had.

From the day he was drafted first overall until the day Doug Gilmour showed up Wendel Clark was literally the only reason to even go and watch the leafs play. He wore his heart on his sleeve and brought his hard hat and lunch pale to work and hit and fought all the toughest guys in the league and scored goals and bled blue all over the ice.

Wendel doesn't have his number retired because of the stats he put up...he has his number retired because he's Wendel bleeping Clark, arguably the most famous, beloved Leaf all time. His number is retired because he's a Maple Leafs icon. His number is retired because of the uniqueness of his situation, and rightfully so.

I am a Leafs fan today because of Wendel Clark.

No way. You are letting your childhood get in the way of truth. Wendel's great but he's not the most beloved Leaf of all time.

 

[Barilko14]

We doing age checks now in the thread?

What's the cut off for someone's opinion on Clark to matter? Have we established a threshold?

Well when someone is saying they've watched him play, so they can comment on what type of an impact he had on a game, and then say they were born in 1994, how many games of Clark did they actually watch??

I can debate Apps vs. Keon based on numbers/comments I find on the internet, but I'm not going to comment on their impact in a game or on their team.

 

[egd27]

We doing age checks now in the thread?

What's the cut off for someone's opinion on Clark to matter? Have we established a threshold?

Depends on the opinion apparently.

There is no statistical case to be made for retiring Clark's number so it has come down to his style of play and how fans "felt" about him. So the argument is if you weren't around to experience it, you can't fully understand it.

IMO, Clark is quite possibly the most over rated Leaf of all time, but obviously that is not a widely held opinion. And that doesn't mean I don't like him, or appreciate his contribution to the Leafs, I just don't think he was top level nhl player.


(Old enough to have seen the last Stanley Cup in 67)

 

[Ash35]

We doing age checks now in the thread?

What's the cut off for someone's opinion on Clark to matter? Have we established a threshold?

It's that same reason why I don't get involved in Gretzky vs Orr or Howe debates. I never watched Orr or Howe play and Highlights and Stats aren't enough.

 

[Ash35]

Depends on the opinion apparently.

There is no statistical case to be made for retiring Clark's number so it has come down to his style of play and how fans "felt" about him. So the argument is if you weren't around to experience it, you can't fully understand it.

IMO, Clark is quite possibly the most over rated Leaf of all time, but obviously that is not a widely held opinion. And that doesn't mean I don't like him, or appreciate his contribution to the Leafs, I just don't think he was top level nhl player.


(Old enough to have seen the last Stanley Cup in 67)

I have no doubt there are others that watched him that play that feel the way you do but I haven't met many. I have met way more people who thought Sundin was and underachiever and soft. I liked Sundin myself.

 

[socko]

Bolted, as in who articulated why the Wings were a better fit for him than a Toronto club about to make him the highest paid goalie in the league in a city that threw itself as completely into him as into WC?

The word we're looking for is betrayed, not bolted.

Clark gets his number raised because of the sheer output of heart and soul - things that can't be measured except by heart and soul - during this club's most abysmal period (minus the Gilmour era) leaves one searching for appropriate descriptors and superlatives. Only that act expresses the appropriate gratitude.

I'd want Jiri Chra's number retired before Joseph's thank you very much.

Well we did get a goalie upgrade in Ed Belfour, so CuJo was really doing us a favor.

 

[thewave]

Research old articles about Clark, they complained about him as well. He was never elite, never amazing in any way but he was exciting when he fought and played sometimes. His best years for this is when he came in, he made a great first impression during a dark period. People loved him for it.

 

[Mike1]

Easy yes in my eyes. I feel like Wendel gets bashed because of how popular he is or maybe it's just an age gap thing. Could be they saw him later in his career, when his style of play was catching up to him.

Wendel for a lot of years was the lone bright spot for a dysfunctional franchise. Through the all the turbulence with garbage ownership & management, fans took a liking to Wendel's guts, scoring ability(which he doesn't get nearly enough credit for) & physicality. I started watching hockey in the early nineties. Lucky for me, this was the time where Ballard was about to croak, new ownership was taking over & the Leafs were about to experience a revival after years in the gutter. The 92-93 Leafs ignited my passion for the game of hockey, Wendel didn't put up great numbers that season, because of his back issues, which were a result of probably fighting. In the playoffs, when they went on the run, he was a force, a true top notch power forward. This was carried into the 94 season, where the trio of Doug Gilmour, Dave Andreychuk(traded for in 93) & Wendel Clark were top three in scoring for the team. Andreychuk set the franchise record for goals in a season with 53, Wendel was off by 7 goals. All three of those guys, along with Felix Potvin I believe went to the all-star game.

People are looking at the numbers & saying because of that, Wendel wasn't a great or even good player. This to me is folly because injuries really hampered his career. Part of the appeal of Wendel was that he never backed down from a fight but in retrospect maybe he should of been told too. The argument that never gets mentioned is, how much better of a career would Wendel have had if he didn't fight? He would have been better off, would've been healthier & as a result wouldn't have had injuries & had a longer career. Wendel was Wendel though, he took on all comers.

All I know is this, as a Leafs fan in my lifetime. I've seen a lot of bad players but of the good ones I've seen Wendel wouldn't be number one but he is up there. Definitely one of my favourites. To say he is a bad player or not worthy of being honoured is such a farce on so many levels.

 

[crump]

He was a phenom when he was a rookie. We talked about him the way we talk about Matthews. Different era when he would have been a 40-50 goal scorer while taking on the baddest hombres in the league. Franchise player. Back injury derailed a sure fire hall of fame career. Even so, he meant so much to a franchise in turmoil, what he did, bad back and all, is astonishing.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Easy yes in my eyes. I feel like Wendel gets bashed because of how popular he is or maybe it's just an age gap thing. Could be they saw him later in his career, when his style of play was catching up to him.

Wendel for a lot of years was the lone bright spot for a dysfunctional franchise. Through the all the turbulence with garbage ownership & management, fans took a liking to Wendel's guts, scoring ability(which he doesn't get nearly enough credit for) & physicality. I started watching hockey in the early nineties. Lucky for me, this was the time where Ballard was about to croak, new ownership was taking over & the Leafs were about to experience a revival after years in the gutter. The 92-93 Leafs ignited my passion for the game of hockey, Wendel didn't put up great numbers that season, because of his back issues, which were a result of probably fighting. In the playoffs, when they went on the run, he was a force, a true top notch power forward. This was carried into the 94 season, where the trio of Doug Gilmour, Dave Andreychuk(traded for in 93) & Wendel Clark were top three in scoring for the team. Andreychuk set the franchise record for goals in a season with 53, Wendel was off by 7 goals. All three of those guys, along with Felix Potvin I believe went to the all-star game.

People are looking at the numbers & saying because of that, Wendel wasn't a great or even good player. This to me is folly because injuries really hampered his career. Part of the appeal of Wendel was that he never backed down from a fight but in retrospect maybe he should of been told too. The argument that never gets mentioned is, how much better of a career would Wendel have had if he didn't fight? He would have been better off, would've been healthier & as a result wouldn't have had injuries & had a longer career. Wendel was Wendel though, he took on all comers.

All I know is this, as a Leafs fan in my lifetime. I've seen a lot of bad players but of the good ones I've seen Wendel wouldn't be number one but he is up there. Definitely one of my favourites. To say he is a bad player or not worthy of being honoured is such a farce on so many levels.

I actually said exactly this earlier in the thread - if I was the coach, I would have told him to fight no more than a couple of times a year and had that been done, he just might have a much better career and we would all agree that he's worthy of having his sweater retired.

 

[Ash35]

Imagine your best goal scorer also being your enforcer, your hardest hitter and your leader. That was Clark at his best.

 

[Mess]

We doing age checks now in the thread?

What's the cut off for someone's opinion on Clark to matter? Have we established a threshold?

Well if one is too young to have seen him play, and only base ones opinion on stats alone, then I suppose that helps explain the differing opinions.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Kept thinking to myself: " One ( Clark) of these things is unlike the other ( Roy), when both had their #'s retired on the same night.

I just think a 13 time stanley cup franchise with the likes of Kennedy, Bower, Apps, Conacher, etc, should honor the true greats. Players who were elite.