Did Wendel Clark deserve his banner raised?

[Cor]

Debate going on. Answer is quite obvious, but alas, here we are.

Top 15 in Franchise Points.
Top 10 in Franchise Goals.
Top 20 in Games Played.
9th Most Goals in a Single Season.
Top 3 in PIM (Mainly Fights)

To add;

- Had he played all 84 games in 93-94, he was on pace to get 60 goals, which would have been the greatest single season goal scoring season by a Leaf, ever. And would have given him a 6 goal cushion
- Leafs 13th Captain in Team History
- While no Stanley Cup, led the team on a couple magical playoff runs
- Arguably one of the most beloved players in team history, by teammates, coaches and fans alike.

Click to read more...

 

[Daisy Jane]

There used to be 84 games instead of 82. cool.
also. I abstain.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Debate going on. Answer is quite obvious, but alas, here we are.

Top 15 in Franchise Points.
Top 10 in Franchise Goals.
Top 20 in Games Played.
9th Most Goals in a Single Season.
Top 3 in PIM (Mainly Fights)

To add;

- Had he played all 84 games in 93-94, he was on pace to get 60 goals, which would have been the greatest single season goal scoring season by a Leaf, ever. And would have given him a 6 goal cushion
- Leafs 13th Captain in Team History
- While no Stanley Cup, led the team on a couple magical playoff runs
- Arguably one of the most beloved players in team history, by teammates, coaches and fans alike.

I look at who the Leafs retired before 17 ( All Hofers) & after WC
( All Hofers). It looked as though the standard was hof to get your # retired. Clark seemed to be the outlier.

Furthermore, shouldn't Roberts or Kaberle get their #'s raised? They were both popular Leafs, huge production, multiple ECF appearances. If Clark deserves it, they do too.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The answer isn't obvious, because it's a subjective thing and there is no one correct answer. The only thing that is obvious is what your view is on the subject as is apparent by your post which shows clearly where your bias lies. I don't really care too much one way or there other but I think it's fair to point out that he wasn't on the level of other Leafs who have had their sweaters retired and I would appreciate it if you would answer my question from the other thread. Here it is again:

As a hockey player, was Clark on the level of Apps, Armstrong, Bower, Sittler, Salming, Clark, Gilmour and Sundin?

 

[Marshy]

I look at who the Leafs retired before 17 ( All Hofers) & after WC
( All Hofers). It looked as though the standard was hof to get your # retired. Clark seemed to be the outlier.

Furthermore, shouldn't Roberts or Kaberle get their #'s raised? They were both popular Leafs, huge production, multiple ECF appearances. If Clark deserves it, they do too.

It's not possible you could have watched Clark play other than on YouTube.

 

[Cor]

I look at who the Leafs retired before 17 ( All Hofers) & after WC
( All Hofers). It looked as though the standard was hof to get your # retired. Clark seemed to be the outlier.

Furthermore, shouldn't Roberts or Kaberle get their #'s raised? They were both popular Leafs, huge production, multiple ECF appearances. If Clark deserves it, they do too.

If Kaberle shot the damn puck more, maybe he'd have the stats too be worthy

Shoooooooooot Kabby!

 

[Hockeyholic]

It's not possible you could have watched Clark play other than on YouTube.

I watched him play. He was a force on the ice. The debate will be how " Big" a force.

It's subjective. If the Leafs had retired #'s of other non hofers I wouldn't have a beef.

My beef is # 31 ( Forgot him earlier), 7, 15 not getting retired, yet 17 being raised. They were major factors for the 99-04 teams.

 

[Barilko14]

I look at who the Leafs retired before 17 ( All Hofers) & after WC
( All Hofers). It looked as though the standard was hof to get your # retired. Clark seemed to be the outlier.

Furthermore, shouldn't Roberts or Kaberle get their #'s raised? They were both popular Leafs, huge production, multiple ECF appearances. If Clark deserves it, they do too.

Roberts? Really? He played ~240 games as a Leaf, that's one of your examples?

 

[thewave]

Just retire everyones number, we need triple digits. Oh man how about Tucker, he was fierce man, we gotta retire tucker

 

[thewave]

If Kaberle shot the damn puck more, maybe he'd have the stats too be worthy

Shoooooooooot Kabby!

Kabby was one of the best defenders the leafs have had in so long. He should be considered for having his number retired as well.

 

[Barilko14]

The answer isn't obvious, because it's a subjective thing and there is no one correct answer. The only thing that is obvious is what your view is on the subject as is apparent by your post which shows clearly where your bias lies. I don't really care too much one way or there other but I think it's fair to point that he wasn't on the level of other Leafs who have had their sweaters retired and I would appreciate it if you would answer my question from the other thread. Here it is again:

As a hockey player, was Clark on the level of Apps, Armstrong, Bower, Sittler, Salming, Clark, Gilmour and Sundin?

I'd say he's at the level of Armstrong on that list. The rest I would put a tier above.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Roberts? Really? He played ~240 games as a Leaf, that's one of your examples?

I don't necessarily believe duration in blue & white should have a huge impact on jersey retirement.

17 played a heck of a lot more games on the Leafs compared with 93. Not one person can dare argue Clark had a bigger impact ( Or was better) than Gilmour.

I know that's a bad example. I'm just saying Clark was never a top five player in the game. Cujo waa a top five goalie when he played on the Leafs. CuJo also stole multiple series. When is his # getting retired?

You may believe CuJo doesn't deserve retirement. After all, he bolted to Detroit. That's why we have message boards. To debate.

If the Leafs retire the # of Roberts, CuJo at minimum, I'll have less of a problem with 17.

 

[egd27]

!9 Leaf Jerseys Retired

Bill Barilko (Passed away as a Leaf and was honoured)
17 Hall of Famers

Wendel Clark


For what he meant to Toronto during some dark times?......okay honor him. But please don't try and justify it based on his being some incredibly skilled hockey player

 

[Kazparov]

Yes. The man is a legend. Heart and soul of the Team when he was here. He bled for us.

Raise it up!

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'd say he's at the level of Armstrong on that list. The rest I would put a tier above.

No fair, I wanted Cor to answer.

OK, it's hard for me to judge as I never saw Armstrong play. I'm sure the fact that he had such a long career with the Leafs played a part, some will think that's valid, others won't. Captaining the team to all those cups has to be worth something as well. But yeah, depending on the criteria you could make a case for Wendel being on his level, I agree the others are a tier above.

 

[WilliamInLondon]

his popularity definitely exceeded his achievements. but since he is an icon, i suppose they should raise his banner. except for 1993-1994, and the fact that he'd drop the gloves and had hard hits from time to time, he put up Nik Antropov numbers - and Antropov played in a much lower scoring era. 95% of the casual fans hated Antropov for no good reason.

Clark was a solid player in his prime, but it always baffled me how he could do no wrong, while a guy like Sundin was beloved too yet maligned by so many throughout his career. Then again, this is talking about a fanbase who booed a hall of famer like Larry Murphy out of town for no logical reason at all but loved the uselessness of Tie Domi...

 

[Cor]

The answer isn't obvious, because it's a subjective thing and there is no one correct answer. The only thing that is obvious is what your view is on the subject as is apparent by your post which shows clearly where your bias lies. I don't really care too much one way or there other but I think it's fair to point out that he wasn't on the level of other Leafs who have had their sweaters retired and I would appreciate it if you would answer my question from the other thread. Here it is again:

As a hockey player, was Clark on the level of Apps, Armstrong, Bower, Sittler, Salming, Clark, Gilmour and Sundin?

As a player? Yes. Maybe with exception to his playmaking abilities. Clark could score goals better than anyone in our franchises history. I sometimes think about an alternate universe where Clark stayed healthy.

As a leader? He's near the top, if not at the top. Simply a warrior.

 

[Mats13]

Truthfully, no.

He's not at the level of Sundin, Sittler, Keon, Salming etc.

That said it doesn't bother me early as much as it seems to bother some other posters.

Also just at the guy who said Sundin's number shouldn't be retired.

 

[Barilko14]

I don't necessarily believe duration in blue & white should have a huge impact on jersey retirement.

17 played a heck of a lot more games on the Leafs compared with 93. Not one person can dare argue Clark had a bigger impact ( Or was better) than Gilmour.

I know that's a bad example. I'm just saying Clark was never a top five player in the game. Cujo waa a top five goalie when he played on the Leafs. CuJo also stole multiple series. When is his # getting retired?

You may believe CuJo doesn't deserve retirement. After all, he bolted to Detroit. That's why we have message boards. To debate.

If the Leafs retire the # of Roberts, CuJo at minimum, I'll have less of a problem with 17.

Re: bolded - everybody else does. You need at least 6+ seasons to really be considered an all-time great. There is no way Roberts or Cujo get consideration with their 4 seasons.

Long story short - list likely should only include HOFer, but no player in Leaf history had that 'get people out their seat' effect Clark had, and no player will again.

Additionally, I believe he easily had the talent to be a 500 goal scorer if he didn't suffer several significant injuries in his career, that forced him to not only miss significant time, but also play through injuries for most of his career.

He had as many goals per game as our all time leading goal scorer. He was a top line goal scorer when healthy, it's not like we are talking about a 4th liner here.

 

[Mats13]

As a player? Yes. Maybe with exception to his playmaking abilities. Clark could score goals better than anyone in our franchises history. I sometimes think about an alternate universe where Clark stayed healthy.

As a leader? He's near the top, if not at the top. Simply a warrior.

The leadership argument is kind of pointless though.

I mean you argue he should be up in the rafters because of his leadership. Where did he lead us?

He never won a cup. So that leadership lead us nowhere.

I don't like players being judged by team accomplishments, but if you're going to argue leadership, the player better have a Cup.

 

[thewave]

We are in a race to retire as many as the habs it seems. I dont think a single player they retired has not won a cup. Such a sad celebration of lacklustre accomplishments.

 

[ImpartialNHLfan]

Yes. The man is a legend. Heart and soul of the Team when he was here. He bled for us.

Raise it up!

this

 

[WilliamInLondon]

Re: bolded - everybody else does. You need at least 6+ seasons to really be considered an all-time great. There is no way Roberts or Cujo get consideration with their 4 seasons.

Long story short - list likely should only include HOFer, but no player in Leaf history had that 'get people out their seat' effect Clark had, and no player will again.

Additionally, I believe he easily had the talent to be a 500 goal scorer if he didn't suffer several significant injuries in his career, that forced him to not only miss significant time, but also play through injuries for most of his career.

He had as many goals per game as our all time leading goal scorer. He was a top line goal scorer when healthy, it's not like we are talking about a 4th liner here.

on what basis is there to assume that Clark would have scored 500+ goals? his career high was 46, which was 14 more than his 2nd best season.

you can't compare his goals per game with the all-time leading goal scorer across eras. need to normalize for the total goals scored across each season to have comparable estimates. also don't agree with justifying someone's inclusion as a franchise 'great' in terms of what he 'could' have done as opposed to what he did. by that logic, if Felix Potvin had proper defencemen from 1994 onwards, he would have retired as a Leaf and be in the Hall of Fame right now.

 

[Hockeyholic]

We are in a race to retire as many as the habs it seems. I dont think a single player they retired has not won a cup. Such a sad celebration of lacklustre accomplishments.

This. I don't get it.

 

[thewave]

Cup yes/no

If yes goto how many?
If no goto who cares. Go away