Did Wendel Clark deserve his banner raised?

[Mr Hockey]

I have a buddy that works at Wendel house a few days a week, landscaping, etc. Wendel negotiated a deal with Golf span, part of the deal was to send a guy to his house.

My friend is a Habs fan and didn't like how Wendel fought and he told him lol

 

[Pyrophorus]

Yes. The man is a legend. Heart and soul of the Team when he was here. He bled for us.

Raise it up!

This is the lone reason.
I also have some qualms about Dougie.
Mats scored a lot, so not so much him, and an HOFer.

 

[TLeafsFan]

I have a buddy that works at Wendel house a few days a week, landscaping, etc. Wendel negotiated a deal with Golf span, part of the deal was to send a guy to his house.

My friend is a Habs fan and didn't like how Wendel fought and he told him lol

And I'm sure he would have liked it even less if he challenged him to one.

 

[moon111]

I've seen players carry their teams. I've seen players carry the Cup. But I can't think of a single player who's carried his franchise like Clark did. The Leafs were just awful. If it wasn't for things like watching Clark's spirited game and a Bob Cole, "Oh baby" thrown in there for good measure... I don't think I would remain a Leafs fan. I can't think of single player past or present for any NHL team that it can be said carried the fan base like Clark did. You can say Sundin did this or that, but if he was traded for Saku Koivu it wouldn't of made any difference if the points scored were the same. It's like if my wife help me through beating cancer, she might not be a super-model, but to me, she would be the most beautiful woman in the world. Clark was the savior of the franchise.

 

[BM14]

He's the person I modelled my sports endeavours after, captaining many teams (nothing too significant), but he taught me what it was like to be a good leader which translated to my leadership style in my career. He absolutely should have his number retired. I think too many people weren't around when Wendel was in his prime and how horrid those teams really were.

 

[Bullseye]

Dude, I think that guy who said his number should be retired League-wide was actually serious, and that's just... well, kind of scary.

It's not that people like to "run down" a guy like Clark. Who would want to do that?

His fan boys just get reeeeaaalllyyyyy outrageous sometimes. At some point, a dose of reality is needed.

Yes. This thread is outa hand. Close it please. Nothing good can come out of this now. It's an insult throwing contest. Can we just leave Clark outa this.

Close it please.

 

[egd27]

Mod's, let's stop one of our great players getting dragged through the mud any further by people with no respect - please lock this thread.

We've heard all the trash talk - what is there left to be said on the subject. Please put this to bed. There is no more point in this thread continuing.

Not seeing a lot of trash talk or WC being dragged through the mud.

Seems that most of the "anti" folks are saying he was a gritty heart and soul player, and perhaps the one bright spot during a dark time in Leaf history, but was not an elite HOF talent....... and therefore the retiring of his jersey can be debated.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Not seeing a lot of trash talk or WC being dragged through the mud.

Seems that most of the "anti" folks are saying he was a gritty heart and soul player, and perhaps the one bright spot during a dark time in Leaf history, but was not an elite HOF talent....... and therefore the retiring of his jersey can be debated.

Yup, that about sums it up.

 

[Bluelines]

Not seeing a lot of trash talk or WC being dragged through the mud.

Seems that most of the "anti" folks are saying he was a gritty heart and soul player, and perhaps the one bright spot during a dark time in Leaf history, but was not an elite HOF talent....... and therefore the retiring of his jersey can be debated.

Not sure the HOF is a good reference point of who should and shouldn't be honored.

A list of guys NOT in the HOF, http://www.notinhalloffame.com/hockey I guess that means where these guys are not on the HHOF, they shouldn't be honored too?

Wendel is not a HOF but he still is a pretty special man to those that had the fortune to watch him.

 

[Mess]

Some fans only measure players by points and points alone, as its the only tangible measure they can use as comparisons. Those that do would not understand Wendel and why he would be honoured for his dedicated and underappreciated service.

As Shanahan put it ...

"An important part of the Maple Leafs Centennial celebrations is recognizing the many great players and their accomplishments while wearing these iconic sweaters over the past 100 years," said Brendan Shanahan, President and Alternate Governor of the Toronto Maple Leafs. "Compiling the list of The One Hundred, as you'd expect with so many legendary players, was an extensive process but it was a labour of love for many, including the fans who submitted more than 300,000 votes online. On behalf of the club, congratulations to the 100 players who made this very distinguished list."

Maple Leafs name greatest players in their history

Dave Keon No. 1 on top 100 list, part of Centennial Anniversary by Toronto Maple Leafs @MapleLeafs / NHL.com

THE ONE HUNDRED

1. Dave Keon
2. Syl Apps
3. Ted Kennedy
4. Darryl Sittler
5. Mats Sundin
6. Tim Horton
7. Johnny Bower
8. Borje Salming
9. Frank Mahovlich
10. Turk Broda
11. Charlie Conacher
12. George Armstrong
13. Doug Gilmour
14. Red Kelly
15. Wendel Clark
16. Busher Jackson
17. Hap Day
18. King Clancy
19. Lanny McDonald
20. Rick Vaive

continued .. https://www.nhl.com/news/toronto-maple-leafs-top-100-all-time-players/c-282659814

Rick Vaive (#20) scored 50+ goals for 3 seasons in a row as Leafs captain and that doesn't get him honoured nor seen as a better player than Wendel as a Leaf, who is seen as the 15th best player to ever put on a Leafs jersey throughout the franchise 100 years.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Some fans only measure players by points and points alone, as its the only tangible measure they can use as comparisons. Those that do would not understand Wendel and why he would be honoured for his dedicated and underappreciated service.

As Shanahan put it ...





Rick Vaive (#20) scored 50+ goals for 3 seasons in a row as Leafs captain and that doesn't get him honoured nor seen as a better player than Wendel as a Leaf, who is seen as the 15th best player to ever put on a Leafs jersey throughout the franchise 100 years.

It's not just a matter of points because I don't think you'll see anyone argue for Vaive over Clark. It's everything taken into context. On that list, Clark is placed about right, and Vaive should actually be knocked down a couple of spots.

But the matter here is whether Clark should have been retired. (Vaive is a clear no. Laughable, even.)

 

[Marshy]

Ahhh now it makes sense. At that weight, even at that height, your friend is either overbulked or fat. Either way he's slow, as powerful as he may be.

So he doesn't like people with fast hands that can get punches off way faster than him.

Ya really. Guy says ok let's go, it's go time. Get your gloves off faster next time. Seriously what a thing to be critical of.

 

[egd27]

Not sure the HOF is a good reference point of who should and shouldn't be honored.

A list of guys NOT in the HOF, http://www.notinhalloffame.com/hockey I guess that means where these guys are not on the HHOF, they shouldn't be honored too?

Wendel is not a HOF but he still is a pretty special man to those that had the fortune to watch him.

Ok, but that's basically the debate here isn't it?

Retired Leaf numbers (I may be off by one)

17 HHOF

Bill Barilko - (died as a Leaf and honored)

Wendel Clark

 

[DitchMarner]

I've seen players carry their teams. I've seen players carry the Cup. But I can't think of a single player who's carried his franchise like Clark did.

Ummm... Mario Lemieux? How about Sidney Crosby? Would the Penguins still be in Pittsburgh without either of them?

 

[Hockeyholic]

I have a buddy that works at Wendel house a few days a week, landscaping, etc. Wendel negotiated a deal with Golf span, part of the deal was to send a guy to his house.

My friend is a Habs fan and didn't like how Wendel fought and he told him lol

Your buddy is quite a guy...

 

[egd27]

But I can't think of a single player who's carried his franchise like Clark did.

Clark's Leafs (pre Gilmour)

Season | Points | %
1985 | 57 | 0.356
1986 | 70 | 0.438
1987 | 52 | 0.325
1988 | 62 | 0.388
1989 | 80 | 0.500
1990 | 57 | 0.356
1991 | 67 | 0.419

I think if you really tried, you could think of a few players that carried their teams better than Clark

I know I know........stats and results don't matter in this debate.

 

[Damisoph]

Seems like this thread has run its course

 

[wc17]

Your buddy is quite a guy...

He did say he was a Habs fan...

 

[TLeafsFan]

Clark's Leafs (pre Gilmour)

Season | Points | %
1985 | 57 | 0.356
1986 | 70 | 0.438
1987 | 52 | 0.325
1988 | 62 | 0.388
1989 | 80 | 0.500
1990 | 57 | 0.356
1991 | 67 | 0.419

I think if you really tried, you could think of a few players that carried their teams better than Clark

I know I know........stats and results don't matter in this debate.

Thanks for confirming that Ballard kept a god awful team around him, including trades like Courtnall for Kordic.

 

[DitchMarner]

Thanks for confirming that Ballard kept a god awful team around him, including trades like Courtnall for Kordic.

Still, when the team did finally improve, Gilmour was the guy that really drove the turn-around.

He was like Batman. Clark was Robin.

 

[TLeafsFan]

Still, when the team did finally improve, Gilmour was the guy that really drove the turn-around.

He was like Batman. Clark was Robin.

Two top forwards and a D and a G finally gave them a chance, yeah.

 

[HansonBro]

Clark is a saint. For anyone who doesn't think so, I will take your mother out for a nice sea food dinner and never call her again!

But seriously being raised like that isn't always about stats. This is an honour for what he did in Toronto as a Leaf. Not the Nhl. And this isn't a HHOF discussion. What Clark did for the Leafs has already been said. Absolutely my favorite player

(Too bad we wasted Luongo on him the second time around)

 

[Mr Hockey]

Your buddy is quite a guy...

He is a good guy and gets along well with Wendel.

 

[Craig Button]

I've seen players carry their teams. I've seen players carry the Cup. But I can't think of a single player who's carried his franchise like Clark did. The Leafs were just awful. If it wasn't for things like watching Clark's spirited game and a Bob Cole, "Oh baby" thrown in there for good measure... I don't think I would remain a Leafs fan. I can't think of single player past or present for any NHL team that it can be said carried the fan base like Clark did. You can say Sundin did this or that, but if he was traded for Saku Koivu it wouldn't of made any difference if the points scored were the same. It's like if my wife help me through beating cancer, she might not be a super-model, but to me, she would be the most beautiful woman in the world. Clark was the savior of the franchise.

Complete nonsense.

Clark didnt carry this franchise.

He didn't carry it in the late 80's and he didn't carry it in the early 90's.

Gilmour saved this franchise.
Without Gilmour.
Clark wouldnt have his career year in 93-94. And then no Sundin trade.

This romanticism and revisionist history is not only false but completely insane

 

[DitchMarner]

Complete nonsense.

Clark didnt carry this franchise.

He didn't carry it in the late 80's and he didn't carry it in the early 90's.

Gilmour saved this franchise.
Without Gilmour.
Clark wouldnt have his career year in 93-94. And then no Sundin trade.

This romanticism and revisionist history is not only false but completely insane

Clark gave people some things to cheer about when there was really no other reason to watch the Leafs, but this idea that he "carried the Leafs to glory" narrative is annoying. It doesn't give Gilmour the credit he deserves and people then use it to bash Sundin, claiming he wasn't a good leader/Captain like Clark was.

If the Leafs don't win the Cup with Matthews in the next few years, some people are going to be saying it's because AM doesn't have "heart," isn't a real leader etc...

The "Clark = Toronto's Lemieux" narrative is merely an invention of Clark fan boys.