News Article: Did Mike Babcock Almost Ruin the Toronto Maple Leafs?

[Pookie]

"Both had injuries and ended up with similar results"

78
vs
89 points pace.

Super similar.

6 of 23 games missing Tavares and 5 of 23 missing Marner from a stacked offense, zero games concurrently.
vs
22 of 23 games missing Rielly, 8 of 23 missing Muzzin, 14 of Ceci. 4 missing all 3, 7 missing Muzzin + Rielly, 10 missing Rielly + Ceci, from a team that's weakest on D.

Subtle differences. Super similar.

Just FYI... Campbell accounted for 7 of those 11 pace point differences. So 5 points. Non playoff team. Hello, lottery.

Anyhoo....

Are you coming around to my team?

Where the health of the players, their talent level and performing have more of an impact than who the coach is?

I see so many who argued with me over that in threads, now blaming injuries for Keefe’s recent record.

Like. Irony bro. Like sooooo much irony.

 

[Pookie]

Yup, looks pretty "similar" to me.

Same poster who said Kadri and Bozak were "similar" players too. They both play on different teams now - equal context, and Kadri has outperformed him significantly.

I'm inclined to believe he just doesn't know what he's talking about.

Ahhh bro. You just joined my “injuries and talent performing matter more than coaching” team a few days ago.

Stick with the plan.

See where you agreed with me? I responded to you directly but you ignored it.

I’ll repost it.

Might be time some folks admit that these injuries have badly effected the record under Keefe.

Talent. Talent performing and health matter more than coaching.

Welcome to the team.

Muzzin and Mikheyev would look fantastic on this team right now.

Did you read the article I shared where Mikheyev chose the Leafs because of the opportunity to develop under Babcock?? On the advice of Zaitsev AND Pavel Datsyuk???

Whoa, right?

Ruined the franchise by helping acquire a player that would look “fantastic on this team right now.”

????

Right??? I mean how dumb does that look?

 

[4thline]

Just FYI... Campbell accounted for 7 of those 11 pace point differences. So 5 points. Non playoff team. Hello, lottery.

Anyhoo....

Are you coming around to my team?

Where the health of the players, their talent level and performing have more of an impact than who the coach is?

I see so many who argued with me over that in threads, now blaming injuries for Keefe’s recent record.

Like. Irony bro. Like sooooo much irony.

Just FYI, Hutchison counted for 8 points under Keefe.

The team same team performed better with decidedly worse injuries.

No irony. No one is saying that coaching mattering means that injuries don't. You're the only one that's making it exclusive. It's not.

Both coaching and injuries act on the base talent level of a team. Do you think ceteris paribus is that hip new Italian restaurant down the street?

I noticed that you've expanded from Health and talent, to health and talent and that talent performing. Connect that last dot. There's something that plays a large role in group dynamics and performance, what is that thing?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Didn’t you post , or like posts, that talked about Babcock’s recording in a Jan -Nov calendar year as a reason to fire him?

Last 23 under Keefe shows where we are headed as a trend.

And remember my conclusion... that’s it’s silly? I don’t put stock in either record.

If a team is ruined because the players play selfishly, aren’t motivated, have slow starts, aren’t prepared, take holidays during games and get outworked.... that’s what we have seen over the last couple months.



Fans rejoiced when Pat Burns exited. I don’t put any stock in those opinions.

Sure. Some players hated Babcock. And sure. Some players liked him and signed here because of him.

I accept that both realities can coexist. You?

Yeah but I’m definitely glad he is gone. Not sure about liking any posts about his last year’s record. It wasn’t very good so I doubt i liked it. I really turned on him this year early. Game one after the Spezza garbage specifically. That was low. Then all the other stuff came out when people had their chance to kick him.

He done good things but no doubt he had-to go and we likely only know the tip of the iceberg on his b.s. behind the scenes. Still compare Keefe’s 47 games to Babcocks last 47 is the right thing to do.

I haven’t done it yet but pretty sure Keefe comesout on top in many areas

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Most players had checked out on Babs while 34, 88 and 94 have been better under Keefe. You can debate all you want Babs vs Keefe but it should now be clear that the coach is not the problem with this team.

Its the secondary thats was the problem and goaltending has not been good enough. Freddy had come back to center before the pause,and hutchinson absolutely broke our back. Never seen the team fire on all cylinders the entire season with consistency. Babcocks 23 games were a train wreck and everyone had a scowl on and losing easily. What else.... oh yeah goals against are a continued issue going 5 years or more now. Lots of things but most importantly is that the team lacks proper chemistry as a whole. That points right back to secondary or bottom 6 again. Dubas could easily change out the bottom 6 strictly onphysicality of the players,plus energy and intangibles and receive as much scoring. They were terrible for 25 games up to the end.

The top players have more than carried them. No way anyone can complain about our top players.

The teams simply to soft in the bottom 6 and it needs to be viewed by Dubas very seriously. If not, he will fail as aNHL general manager.

I could easily go to this summers Ufa list and cap efficiently build the bottom 4,5 or even full 6 easily.

 

[Menzinger]

Just FYI, Hutchison counted for 8 points under Keefe.

The team same team performed better with decidedly worse injuries.

No irony. No one is saying that coaching mattering means that injuries don't. You're the only one that's making it exclusive. It's not.

Both coaching and injuries act on the base talent level of a team. Do you think ceteris paribus is that hip new Italian restaurant down the street?

I noticed that you've expanded from Health and talent, to health and talent and that talent performing. Connect that last dot. There's something that plays a large role in group dynamics and performance, what is that thing?

Its the nonsense of framing it as an either-or issue. Folks saying that coaching matters arent pretending that players and health dont matter for example.

 

[Pookie]

No irony. No one is saying that coaching mattering means that injuries don't. You're the only one that's making it exclusive. It's not.

It’s funny that you would read the words “matter more” and conclude that I’m making it exclusive.

On the list of factors that influence performance, coaching is way down the list of importance.

Ever recall reading that in the quotes you replied to me with?

I noticed that you've expanded from Health and talent, to health and talent and that talent performing

You’ve finally noticed that I use those terms???

It took years but I don’t know whether to cry for joy or be sad.

But not to take anything away from your transformative position... talent isn’t talented if it doesn’t perform. They are interchangeable terms.

A goalie who is rated high but routinely posts a .740 save percentage isn’t “talented”... they aren’t “performing” either.

 

[4thline]

It’s funny that you would read the words “matter more” and conclude that I’m making it exclusive.

On the list of factors that influence performance, coaching is way down the list of importance.

Ever recall reading that in the quotes you replied to me with?



You’ve finally noticed that I use those terms???

It took years but I don’t know whether to cry for joy or be sad.

But not to take anything away from your transformative position... talent isn’t talented if it doesn’t perform. They are interchangeable terms.

A goalie who is rated high but routinely posts a .740 save percentage isn’t “talented”... they aren’t “performing” either.

People infer that you're making it exclusive when an exchange goes

1- >"Look, A and B were both injured, and performed comparably"
2->"Actually B was significantly more injured than A, and performed materially better despite that"
1->"AHAH! You mentioned injuries, therefore I am right!"

Now you're just all twisted up. Talent and performance are the same thing? Really? A person at a given talent level never has performance fluctuations? Always constant?
Are you saying that if someone is playing below their ability they actually aren't but really that their innate talent level has dropped?

No. You've just firmly backed yourself into a corner.

Talent matters.
That talent being healthy matters.
The talent that is available due to health playing to their ability matters.
Leadership and management (coaching) play a role in talent playing to their ability (performing).

We have seen all come into play this season. You provided the perfect example of the same team (talent)with worse health performing better under different leadership and netting out with better results. Thank-you for that.

 

[Spencer White]

There's enough points on the table still I am still a no.

Well sir, I tried my best haha

 

[Pookie]

You provided the perfect example of the same team (talent)with worse health performing better under different leadership and netting out with better results. Thank-you for that.

You think having Hutchinson is the same as Campbell?

Hutch contributed 0 points towards Babcock’s team. Campbell put 8 into the last 23 games.

Sort of a weird conclusion.

 

[Pookie]

Its the nonsense of framing it as an either-or issue. Folks saying that coaching matters arent pretending that players and health dont matter for example.

I agree. Framing it as an either or issue is nonsense.

I’m one of those that say that coaching isn’t as much of a factor as talent and health.

I’m sure you’d agree with that.

Right?

 

[4thline]

You think having Hutchinson is the same as Campbell?

Hutch contributed 0 points towards Babcock’s team. Campbell put 8 into the last 23 games.

Sort of a weird conclusion.

And Hutch put 2 into those 23, 6 into the 24 before. Looks like a case of the same talent performing differently doesn't it?

Try and deflect all you want, the fact that it's taken you 4 posts to circle back and try (weakly at that) to refute that your "evidence" contradicts your argument is damning enough

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I agree. Framing it as an either or issue is nonsense.

I’m one of those that say that coaching isn’t as much of a factor as talent and health.

I’m sure you’d agree with that.

Right?

Tell that to trotz. It was trotz that reinvented his team no?

 

[Pookie]

Tell that to trotz. It was trotz that reinvented his team no?

Lou.

 

[Pookie]

And Hutch put 2 into those 23, 6 into the 24 before. Looks like a case of the same talent performing differently doesn't it?

Try and deflect all you want, the fact that it's taken you 4 posts to circle back and try (weakly at that) to refute that your "evidence" contradicts your argument is damning enough

Hopeless to continue this.

I think I’d have better luck convincing this guy he’s overreacting to a perceived need to stock up on butt blankets

I don’t want to leave you empty handed though.

I’ll just leave you with a post I made... in a Babcock appreciation thread in 2016:

Actually the money quote is in the conclusion:

"For now, remember that a coach can only do so much without a GM bringing in a talented cast."

Which is exactly the point. Coach has minimal impact… only can do so much…. and talent (and health) are the variables that drive performance to greater degree. Thanks for posting that.

If you are serious about this and really want to look into the subject that delves into sports that are much further along the "analytics" path, I've got a couple of great books for you to check out.

 

[FraumBallard]

He will be lucky to get another coaching job after all of the antics came out...let's be serious here, he is basically toxic at this point and will most likely be treated as such

Yours is the popular opinion I would think.
Hopefully 22 year old millionaires won't run the show.
It doesn't seem very likely that will work out well for anyone.
We will see.
Good post.
I like but I got no like button.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Lou.

Ha sure

 

[JayfromNB1219]

Yours is the popular opinion I would think.
Hopefully 22 year old millionaires won't run the show.
It doesn't seem very likely that will work out well for anyone.
We will see.
Good post.
I like but I got no like button.

I appreciate the comment regardless, and I agree with you 22 yr old millionaires shouldn't run the show 100%...but there are things that go beyond that...like being a semi-decent human being, I get what he was going for, as I am sure we all do when we sit down and think about it (the marner situation) but it was handled terribly and was a terrible idea to begin with...for example, I would have had him look at people outside of hockey (it is well documented these days who REALLY puts in work when it comes to their professional lives) like I said, I know what he was going for...but it turned into a shit show...the guy shot himself in the foot

 

[Pookie]

Ha sure

I know is considered controversial by some to mention this...

... but in other places...

... GMs are actually responsible for decisions they make.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I know is considered controversial by some to mention this...

... but in other places...

... GMs are actually responsible for decisions they make.

zyeah well, players things have to be viewed on ultimate,ideal conditions. Mediocre semi bad year. Nothing to go over the top about for me.

i just post to soften your idea of it because it’s a little harsh for me ha

Thats all we ever do on here. I have been harsh lots. Read a little,arg a bit and i view it different lots.

I doubt there is a fan anywhere that dislikes the Kadri trade and the two players we got for him more than me. Circumstances of the suspension and Dubas making a trade mad turned that as his worst trade. It could have been good. Barrie I don’t like because he can’t play defense good enough. He actually is a really good offensive guy and some games looks to put it all together. I won’t miss him but I don’t have the I can’t stand him feeling like i do for Kerfoot. I can’t stand Kerfoot. Worse, I don’t think we can get much for him. Yeah so that me on that

 

[slates77]

He did a good job other than the relationship with players (possibly led to Marner/Matthews contracts being thicc). Overstayed his welcome by a year IMO

 

[JT AM da real deal]

zyeah well, players things have to be viewed on ultimate,ideal conditions. Mediocre semi bad year. Nothing to go over the top about for me.

i just post to soften your idea of it because it’s a little harsh for me ha

Thats all we ever do on here. I have been harsh lots. Read a little,arg a bit and i view it different lots.

I doubt there is a fan anywhere that dislikes the Kadri trade and the two players we got for him. Circumstances of the suspension and Dubas making a trade mad turned that as his worst trade. It could have been good. Barrie I don’t like because he can’t play defense good enough. He actually is a really good offensive guy and some games looks to put it all together. I won’t miss him but I don’t have the I can’t stand him feeling like i do for Kerfoot. I can’t stand Kerfoot. Worse, I don’t think we can get much for him. Yeah so that me on that

Like it or not every GM makes a terrible deal. And quite frankly I was wrong here too. I watched Barrie play against Calgary in playoffs last year over da summer in video game format and came away thinking Barrie was a puck carrier who could jump into play everywhere on ice and create. He created some much offense that I missed da defensive issues. Well now we all know here this guy is a PP specialist who needs shielding on 3rd pair. and Kerfoot while he can skate like da wind does not have hands and does not have hockey IQ. So GM's can get fooled and Dubie did. And we really propelled Avs because they needed a 2nd line centre and they got it. We thought we could get a top 4 dman and a replacement 3rd line centre and we got neither. Oh well sometimes you make mistakes. We all need to move on. Hopefully Dubie learned as a rookie GM and I am sure he did. This offseason we need to resign Dermy and get another big nasty defensive dman who can play in top 4.

 

[Fatass]

Like it or not every GM makes a terrible deal. And quite frankly I was wrong here too. I watched Barrie play against Calgary in playoffs last year over da summer in video game format and came away thinking Barrie was a puck carrier who could jump into play everywhere on ice and create. He created some much offense that I missed da defensive issues. Well now we all know here this guy is a PP specialist who needs shielding on 3rd pair. and Kerfoot while he can skate like da wind does not have hands and does not have hockey IQ. So GM's can get fooled and Dubie did. And we really propelled Avs because they needed a 2nd line centre and they got it. We thought we could get a top 4 dman and a replacement 3rd line centre and we got neither. Oh well sometimes you make mistakes. We all need to move on. Hopefully Dubie learned as a rookie GM and I am sure he did. This offseason we need to resign Dermy and get another big nasty defensive dman who can play in top 4.

Well, no more Barrie now. I thought the younger guys were better at D anyway. Let the young guys play.

 

[Rondo Hatton]

Like it or not every GM makes a terrible deal. And quite frankly I was wrong here too. I watched Barrie play against Calgary in playoffs last year over da summer in video game format and came away thinking Barrie was a puck carrier who could jump into play everywhere on ice and create. He created some much offense that I missed da defensive issues. Well now we all know here this guy is a PP specialist who needs shielding on 3rd pair. and Kerfoot while he can skate like da wind does not have hands and does not have hockey IQ. So GM's can get fooled and Dubie did. And we really propelled Avs because they needed a 2nd line centre and they got it. We thought we could get a top 4 dman and a replacement 3rd line centre and we got neither. Oh well sometimes you make mistakes. We all need to move on. Hopefully Dubie learned as a rookie GM and I am sure he did. This offseason we need to resign Dermy and get another big nasty defensive dman who can play in top 4.

I think this is a good analysis of the players but I would have a different take on the trade. The Kadri trade was tricky for Dubas, on paper Kadri should have stayed on the team but the reality was he needed to be off the Leafs. His reputation and repeated P/O suspensions meant he was spoiled goods on the TML. His refusal on the Calgary trade put Dubas in a further down position. So overall this has been a poor trade but an excusable one.
imo it's still too early to make final judgement on Dubas's competence but people are being way too harsh with the criticisms. I have way more interest and confidence in his direction than JF Jr./Burke/Nonis, the unholy triumvirate of idiot GM's. The one thing that I felt was a big mistake at the time was letting McElhinney go in favour of an unproven Sparks.

 

[Its not your fault]

Well sir, I tried my best haha

LOL it was a good challenge I have a good chuckle stay safe.