News Article: Did Mike Babcock Almost Ruin the Toronto Maple Leafs?

[Wafflewhipper]

Like it or not every GM makes a terrible deal. And quite frankly I was wrong here too. I watched Barrie play against Calgary in playoffs last year over da summer in video game format and came away thinking Barrie was a puck carrier who could jump into play everywhere on ice and create. He created some much offense that I missed da defensive issues. Well now we all know here this guy is a PP specialist who needs shielding on 3rd pair. and Kerfoot while he can skate like da wind does not have hands and does not have hockey IQ. So GM's can get fooled and Dubie did. And we really propelled Avs because they needed a 2nd line centre and they got it. We thought we could get a top 4 dman and a replacement 3rd line centre and we got neither. Oh well sometimes you make mistakes. We all need to move on. Hopefully Dubie learned as a rookie GM and I am sure he did. This offseason we need to resign Dermy and get another big nasty defensive dman who can play in top 4.

Dillon?..

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I think this is a good analysis of the players but I would have a different take on the trade. The Kadri trade was tricky for Dubas, on paper Kadri should have stayed on the team but the reality was he needed to be off the Leafs. His reputation and repeated P/O suspensions meant he was spoiled goods on the TML. His refusal on the Calgary trade put Dubas in a further down position. So overall this has been a poor trade but an excusable one.
imo it's still too early to make final judgement on Dubas's competence but people are being way too harsh with the criticisms. I have way more interest and confidence in his direction than JF Jr./Burke/Nonis, the unholy triumvirate of idiot GM's. The one thing that I felt was a big mistake at the time was letting McElhinney go in favour of an unproven Sparks.

I get it on da Kadri front but we lost our only guy up front who g*ve a cr*p when things got tough. But I was encouraged when we got Clifford. And I think team is playing bigger. I have never seen Kappy play so well. He always had da skill and speed but now he is playing without fear. Yes Kappy has low hockey IQ but he makes up for it to me when he plays tough. That is a huge change to me. Even Matty looks like he is playing more physical. Although I am still upset with him over that Cali trip. But a couple blips with MAC and Kadri is going to happen to a rookie GM. But he shows signs of being able to learn which i find impressive. I don't think we are that far away as some think. A couple nasty defenders with size on backend could make a huge difference even 1. and Freddy playing well in playoffs and we could really surprise next year. Rielly i feel will truly become a legit Norris guy next season. I think he really learned a lot more doing all the hard work for Barrie. and having him back on PP1 is going to help too. I think Keefe is already starting to make move back to Rielly on PP1 now. even with Barrie here. in fact if there is a playoff which i doubt you may see Barrie as a healthy scratch.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

We need

I get it on da Kadri front but we lost our only guy up front who g*ve a cr*p when things got tough. But I was encouraged when we got Clifford. And I think team is playing bigger. I have never seen Kappy play so well. He always had da skill and speed but now he is playing without fear. Yes Kappy has low hockey IQ but he makes up for it to me when he plays tough. That is a huge change to me. Even Matty looks like he is playing more physical. Although I am still upset with him over that Cali trip. But a couple blips with MAC and Kadri is going to happen to a rookie GM. But he shows signs of being able to learn which i find impressive. I don't think we are that far away as some think. A couple nasty defenders with size on backend could make a huge difference even 1. and Freddy playing well in playoffs and we could really surprise next year. Rielly i feel will truly become a legit Norris guy next season. I think he really learned a lot more doing all the hard work for Barrie. and having him back on PP1 is going to help too. I think Keefe is already starting to make move back to Rielly on PP1 now. even with Barrie here. in fact if there is a playoff which i doubt you may see Barrie as a healthy scratch.

to get a scrappy bunch in the mix. Engvall maybe keep but he hasn’t produced much of anything for 2 months and basically zero physical play either. Thats a red flag. Gauthier,Engvall, Malgin types aren’t what we need. We need physical energy players with a snotty disposition in the lineup. It wouldn’t take anything more than solid defense and sporadic scoring to be better than players in bottom six

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Dillon?..

Rielly Dermy
Muzzy Holl
Dillon Sandin

It could work ... I am a little unsure if Dermy can make jump yet to line 1 ... but no way Holl can play line 1 and Dillon can't either ... what would be interesting is Muzzy Rielly where Rielly moves over to RH side then Dermy Holl then Dillon Sandin now to me that can work. But we will hear tons about Rielly on RH side. He can handle it. and Muzzy can do the hard banging in corners and get pucks deep.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

We need

to get a scrappy bunch in the mix. Engvall maybe keep but he hasn’t produced much of anything for 2 months and basically zero physical play either. Thats a red flag. Gauthier,Engvall, Malgin types aren’t what we need. We need physical energy players with a snotty disposition in the lineup. It wouldn’t take anything more than solid defense and sporadic scoring to be better than players in bottom six

Yes a little more sandpaper up front would help too. I think Engval can work as a 3rd line centre. He is strong on puck. Get rid of Kerfoot and AJ they are CAP dumps now. Bring in a couple scrappier guys who can skate. Goat and Malgin are weak.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Rielly Dermy
Muzzy Holl
Dillon Sandin

It could work ... I am a little unsure if Dermy can make jump yet to line 1 ... but no way Holl can play line 1 and Dillon can't either ... what would be interesting is Muzzy Rielly where Rielly moves over to RH side then Dermy Holl then Dillon Sandin now to me that can work. But we will hear tons about Rielly on RH side. He can handle it. and Muzzy can do the hard banging in corners and get pucks deep.

I like your initial pairs. Dermy and Holl inexperience being together specifically could be sketchy at times. Dermott Rielly might work because Dermott really picked up his game with more responsibility there before the shutdown

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I like your initial pairs. Dermy and Holl inexperience being together specifically could be sketchy at times. Dermott Rielly might work because Dermott really picked up his game with more responsibility there before the shutdown

Hard to say but with Keefe he would try everything to find right mix. I think very highly of Dermy. He has such a high compete level. and has from very young days. plus he has all da tools. you might be right because he is only other guy we got who can skate with Rielly.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Hard to say but with Keefe he would try everything to find right mix. I think very highly of Dermy. He has such a high compete level. and has from very young days. plus he has all da tools. you might be right because he is only other guy we got who can skate with Rielly.

You are right. Keefe will mix and match. I think we all like that after cookie cutter babcock

 

[FraumBallard]

I appreciate the comment regardless, and I agree with you 22 yr old millionaires shouldn't run the show 100%...but there are things that go beyond that...like being a semi-decent human being, I get what he was going for, as I am sure we all do when we sit down and think about it (the marner situation) but it was handled terribly and was a terrible idea to begin with...for example, I would have had him look at people outside of hockey (it is well documented these days who REALLY puts in work when it comes to their professional lives) like I said, I know what he was going for...but it turned into a shit show...the guy shot himself in the foot

Pretty much how it ended.
Kinda like Grapes.
They both knew they were gonna get fired but they stayed true to their beliefs.
Right or wrong.
I respect that.

 

[Menzinger]

I agree. Framing it as an either or issue is nonsense.

I’m one of those that say that coaching isn’t as much of a factor as talent and health.

I’m sure you’d agree with that.

Right?

I think thry both matter and attempting to claim the degree to the differences in impact is a fairly fruitless exercise

 

[Pookie]

I think thry both matter and attempting to claim the degree to the differences in impact is a fairly fruitless exercise

Naw. It’s empirical. Studied and quantified.

Not attempting to understand the issue is just lazy.

For example, when Babcock finished last... was he the worst coach in the league?

The next year, he finished in a playoff spot and was in the Jack Adams conversation.

Did he read a coaching book between seasons? Nope. We drafted Matthews and Marner made a successful jump.

Pretty clear demonstration.

 

[kb]

Naw. It’s empirical. Studied and quantified.

Not attempting to understand the issue is just lazy.

For example, when Babcock finished last... was he the worst coach in the league?

The next year, he finished in a playoff spot and was in the Jack Adams conversation.

Did he read a coaching book between seasons? Nope. We drafted Matthews and Marner made a successful jump.

Pretty clear demonstration.

Numbers are empirical. The reasons for those numbers are pure speculation.

Sorry.

 

[Pookie]

Numbers are empirical. The reasons for those numbers are pure speculation.

Sorry.

What the heck are you talking about?

 

[Menzinger]

Naw. It’s empirical. Studied and quantified.

Not attempting to understand the issue is just lazy.

For example, when Babcock finished last... was he the worst coach in the league?

The next year, he finished in a playoff spot and was in the Jack Adams conversation.

Did he read a coaching book between seasons? Nope. We drafted Matthews and Marner made a successful jump.

Pretty clear demonstration.

People on here have already pointed out the flaws with those same couple studies you keep flogging to try and support your point.

Not going down this rabbit hole with you again isn't "laziness", i assure you.

Talent, health and coaching all impact team outcomes

 

[Stephen]

You are right. Keefe will mix and match. I think we all like that after cookie cutter babcock

Keefe's claim to fame so far is he'll do the thing the Internet forum wants, but just the way the Leafs play their transition game, defend and run their power play doesn't really impress me. The motivational issues and consistency also remain a massive issue, which is largely a coaching issue. Or at least an aspect of a team's personality that a coach can impact.

 

[Pookie]

People on here have already pointed out the flaws with those same couple studies you keep flogging to try and support your point.

Not going down this rabbit hole with you again isn't "laziness", i assure you.

Talent, health and coaching all impact team outcomes

The old “I already debunked the Professor’s published academic journal article” defence. A couple folks here accomplished what a peer review of the editorial board of a respected scientific journal couldn’t eh?

Fun.

Let’s rank these 3 variables in order of importance.

What’s so hard about saying that a talented roster... or a healthy roster... impacts results more than a coach can?

Just too entrenched in wanting to be right.... or ?

 

[Bomber0104]

The old “I already debunked the Professor’s published academic journal article” defence. A couple folks here accomplished what a peer review of the editorial board of a respected scientific journal couldn’t eh?

Fun.

Let’s rank these 3 variables in order of importance.

What’s so hard about saying that a talented roster... or a healthy roster... impacts results more than a coach can?

Just too entrenched in wanting to be right.... or ?

People on here conveniently like to try to over-state the impact of coaching for one reason and one reason only...

To try to excuse poor GM'ing

Posters here actually thought Carlyle's teams were underperforming because of his coaching and immediately lauded his replacement Peter Horachek because the team's Corsi went up a few percentages.

Meanwhile the team proceeded to tank the rest of the season and finished 5th last..

 

[Pookie]

People on here conveniently like to try to over-state the impact of coaching for one reason and one reason only...

To try to excuse poor GM'ing

Posters here actually thought Carlyle's teams were underperforming because of his coaching and immediately lauded his replacement Peter Horachek because the team's Corsi went up a few percentages.

Meanwhile the team proceeded to tank the rest of the season and finished 5th last..

I agree with your post

 

[JT AM da real deal]

People on here conveniently like to try to over-state the impact of coaching for one reason and one reason only...

To try to excuse poor GM'ing

Posters here actually thought Carlyle's teams were underperforming because of his coaching and immediately lauded his replacement Peter Horachek because the team's Corsi went up a few percentages.

Meanwhile the team proceeded to tank the rest of the season and finished 5th last..

As you know it has been stated forever throughout 70 years of hockey that team success is 80% recruiting and 20% coaching. I would like some of the analytics types to try to run some data models on the time tested theory which we used to state all the time. I was told it originated with Selke. But I heard it from Pollack and Bowman too.

 

[81Leafs50]

Because Leaf fans still dream of a team of Wendel Clarks, even though Wendel was a once-in-a-lifetime player that we'll probably never see again? And so too many measure the ability of star players by how closely they play to Wendel Clark in his prime?

Zach Hyman doesnt do anything even remotely like Wendel. He doesnt fight, he doesnt score, he doesnt hit. NO one compares Hyman to Clark.

So until you can come up with something intelligent to say that isn't some BS blanket statement that you are regurgitating from other sources please keep to yourself.

 

[Bluebear]

I didn't read the whole thread and the last page is mostly off topic, but I think it's pretty hard to say Babcock ruined the team.... The high draft picks all reached pretty much the top end of their projected potentials when they were drafted, a bunch of lower draft picks graduated with a very high success rate under him. It seems like his leadership style was inappropriate and the team needed a shakeup this season, but hard to look at the results he had and say the team was ruined.

 

[Lightsol]

So until you can come up with something intelligent to say that isn't some BS blanket statement that you are regurgitating from other sources please keep to yourself.

 

[Tmart335]

We need

to get a scrappy bunch in the mix. Engvall maybe keep but he hasn’t produced much of anything for 2 months and basically zero physical play either. Thats a red flag. Gauthier,Engvall, Malgin types aren’t what we need. We need physical energy players with a snotty disposition in the lineup. It wouldn’t take anything more than solid defense and sporadic scoring to be better than players in bottom six

We need

to get a scrappy bunch in the mix. Engvall maybe keep but he hasn’t produced much of anything for 2 months and basically zero physical play either. Thats a red flag. Gauthier,Engvall, Malgin types aren’t what we need. We need physical energy players with a snotty disposition in the lineup. It wouldn’t take anything more than solid defense and sporadic scoring to be better than players in bottom six

 

[Tmart335]

We need

to get a scrappy bunch in the mix. Engvall maybe keep but he hasn’t produced much of anything for 2 months and basically zero physical play either. Thats a red flag. Gauthier,Engvall, Malgin types aren’t what we need. We need physical energy players with a snotty disposition in the lineup. It wouldn’t take anything more than solid defense and sporadic scoring to be better than players in bottom six

It would be foolish to get rid of engvall. The guy oozes potential of a 3rd liner who has a lot of upside.

The guy has deceptive speed and decent hands. It's kind of like 2 or less years ago when people said hymen couldn't play.

Hymen is now a beast up front. People are now discounting engvall. Definetly different players, but you can see engvall will be a key part of the leafs

 

[Bomber0104]

It would be foolish to get rid of engvall. The guy oozes potential of a 3rd liner who has a lot of upside.

The guy has deceptive speed and decent hands. It's kind of like 2 or less years ago when people said hymen couldn't play.

Hymen is now a beast up front. People are now discounting engvall. Definetly different players, but you can see engvall will be a key part of the leafs

Hyman and Engvall are complately incomparable players. There's nothing similar about their defensive game at all.

A better comparable for Engvall would be someone like Victor Stalberg.

A lot of speed and flash, but no substance.