Speculation: Devils Rentals

[markog]

Keep in mind, the rangers embarked on a rebuild 20 months ago, at a time when the devils and shero had a 2.5 year head start on them in building a new team. In that 20 months the Rangers have caught the Devils on the rebuild highway and are now miles ahead. The Rangers fearlessly announced they were building a new team, proceeded to sell everything that wasn't nailed down (Grabner, Nash, McDonaugh, Miller, Zuccarello, Hayes, Vesey), collected assets, and are where they are as a result.

If the Devils pass on the opportunity to gain assets for expiring contracts of players who are not and have not done enough to make the team even minimally competent, then they deserve what they get.

I really hate complementing the Rangers but its absolutely true. Holding these expiring vets is a terrible decision.

What is the end result of those assets? Nothing (yet). They passed New Jersey because they're far more attractive to players and they used that. Panarin wanted to play in NY, Fox and Trouba probably had NY as one of only two or three places they would sign. Even those assets they sold (Hayes, Vesey) were in NY because as FA's they only wanted to sign there. At the end of the day winning only matters, if neither wins the Cup it doesn't matter.

 

[unknownbrother]

They can sign someone on defense. Nothing stopping them. I would rather they collect assets and then sign someone to fill the role in July, then re-sign players who are already proven to be not working and get no future capital for it.

Brian Boyle was also a fan favorite. This team needs future assets desperately. Again, you can try to sign Simmonds, Vatanen back in July if you really love them, but need the assets. Greene as captain I think we all agree has run its course and its past the point where that needs to end.

What's the feeling about Palmieri? Would New Jersey be willing to move him this season or does the team want to keep him around? Perhaps Palmieri even prefers to stay put.

The biggest point I can make is that the Devils are not at the start of a rebuild or at a point of "burn it all down".

Players like Palmieri and Vatanen should be kept. The Devils already have a core of young players and prospects already playing in the NHL or about to make the step up in a year or two. Trading away vets for futures is not the best thing to do with this team.

OP, the difference between the Devils and Rangers rebuilds are clear. The Rangers have the draw of playing at MSG and being from NYC. The Rangers also had a lot more higher valued players to trade for futures than what the Devils had when Shero took over.

The Devils today are in a much healthier position than the Rangers were 20 months ago and I believe they'll be ahead of the Rangers when both teams young players enter their prime years.

 

[SlapshotTheMovie]

Greene can clear waivers. He has no value in 2020

 

[BruinLVGA]

Yikes man. You are WAY under valuing Palmeri. When I made that proposal originally I had many Bruins fan saying it was fair and that it was a rough trade to swallow but they would do it as it made the bruins far and away cup favorites. Palmeri is a 30G RW on a sweetheart contract of 4.6 for this year and next. You may not want him and that’s fine but saying you’d offer up a #6 D and a 2nd for him is insulting.

Palmieri doesn't drive the play (on his line, Hall did), Palmieri doesn't defend (on his line Hischier did. Hall and Palmieri floated on D). So... If Palmieri doesn't score (in his defense, he's been regularly doing it, 25 to 30 goals per season), he doesn't do much else.
I guarantee you that in Boston he wouldn't be on the first line, and playing with Krejci and Debrusk on the second line + having to perform on defense too, he wouldn't pot 25-30 here. Guaranteed.
Last but not least, Palmieri isn't signed long term, he's got only 1 more season on his contract.

Then... you are calling Vaakanainen a #6D, uh... That's just a plain idiotic statement.
He's only 20 and our best D prospect, who has a strong chance of becoming soon a top 2/3D. In his call up he's shown all his good qualities, but we have a logjam at D + he was still a bit raw and needed some more experience in the AHL and he'll be ready to be a stalwart in our D for years to come, probably from next season on.

Vaakanainen + 2nd for 29 yo, only signed for short term Palmieri would be an overpayment by Boston. I would never even offer Vaakanainen for Palmieri straight up (never mind adding a 2nd), what I stated was what I thought would be an offer NJ would take for sure.

You are not offering prime Kessel signed long term here.

 

[135ace]

Keep in mind, the rangers embarked on a rebuild 20 months ago, at a time when the devils and shero had a 2.5 year head start on them in building a new team. In that 20 months the Rangers have caught the Devils on the rebuild highway and are now miles ahead. The Rangers fearlessly announced they were building a new team, proceeded to sell everything that wasn't nailed down (Grabner, Nash, McDonaugh, Miller, Zuccarello, Hayes, Vesey), collected assets, and are where they are as a result.

If the Devils pass on the opportunity to gain assets for expiring contracts of players who are not and have not done enough to make the team even minimally competent, then they deserve what they get.

I really hate complementing the Rangers but its absolutely true. Holding these expiring vets is a terrible decision.

What the Rangers have done is impressive in some ways, but let's also be honest- it looks like they rushed their rebuild too much. They took advantage of the appeal of NYC to get some big FAs, but they're being carried by Panarin and Zibs, both of who are going to be going on 30 and declining by the time their youth starts to peak. I think what the Rangers have done is become a perennial bubble team. I don't see them being a contender right now.

I'd much rather be in our position with more high draft picks this year and Nico & Jack, both of whom are better talents than any of the youngsters the rangers have. As for what should we do with our older players, it really depends. If Sami will re-sign a 4-5 year deal I'd keep him. He's a very good defenseman who we won't easily replace. Otherwise, SELL, SELL, SELL.
Palmieri is another interesting name, and I expect Gusev will be one too as he's really started to pick things up. I think you try to sign both to 4-5 year deals or move them. I wouldn't move either this year though unless the value is there. As for other players, you definitely sell if there's a decent offer (Greene probably fetches a 2nd at the deadline if we retain salary, maybe someone wants Zajac, but I see him staying put). The most interesting name to me, however, is Coleman. He's been a bright spot for us, but really doesn't fit our timeline. I don't know if another team will give us proper value for him, but maybe he can be part of a bigger package to get a better piece coming back. I also think we should start trying to package some of our lesser pieces into a better talent. We have too many players like Bratt/Butcher/McLeod/Wood, and even Severson and Zacha (although I think Zacha is particularly useful), and not enough high-end talent.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Vatanen has pretty high value imo, if hes traded I wouldnt anchor him with a bad contract that'll potentially diminish the return. Putting him with a rental like Simmonds would be ok.

As a Leaf fan I'd offer the usual Johnsson + a sweetner or 2 (picks or prospects) for Vatanen + Simmonds.

Johnsson is good but too expensive for us going forward. Don't know if thats a fair offer cause I suck at valuing

Vatanen+Simmonds for Johnsson+Bracco+Ceci(cap purposes)plus another small piece may make some sense for both sides. Nj get a young top 6 winger and a good prospect and the Leafs get a good top 4 D who's expiring and a bottom 6 winger who can throw the body. I know Devils fans are asking for a 1st plus a prospect for Vats but Johnsson and Bracco give you similar value. I dont think the Leafs could even make this work cap wise so NJ would need to retain which means the Leafs would need to add another small piece as well.

 

[devils29]

Palmieri doesn't drive the play (on his line, Hall did), Palmieri doesn't defend (on his line Hischier did. Hall and Palmieri floated on D). So... If Palmieri doesn't score (in his defense, he's been regularly doing it, 25 to 30 goals per season), he doesn't do much else.
I guarantee you that in Boston he wouldn't be on the first line, and playing with Krejci and Debrusk on the second line + having to perform on defense too, he wouldn't pot 25-30 here. Guaranteed.
Last but not least, Palmieri isn't signed long term, he's got only 1 more season on his contract.

Then... you are calling Vaakanainen a #6D, uh... That's just a plain idiotic statement.
He's only 20 and our best D prospect, who has a strong chance of becoming soon a top 2/3D. In his call up he's shown all his good qualities, but we have a logjam at D + he was still a bit raw and needed some more experience in the AHL and he'll be ready to be a stalwart in our D for years to come, probably from next season on.

Vaakanainen + 2nd for 29 yo, only signed for short term Palmieri would be an overpayment by Boston. I would never even offer Vaakanainen for Palmieri straight up (never mind adding a 2nd), what I stated was what I thought would be an offer NJ would take for sure.

You are not offering prime Kessel signed long term here.

I’m calling Gryz a #6 defender... what you offered. And saying Palmeri doesn’t play defense shows you don’t watch him at all... he’s +1 on a team with a -37 goal differential. Palmeri is exactly what the Bruins need, a very good RW signed cheap. You’re negating his best asset by saying “yeah well if he doesn’t score he doesn’t do much...” but he does score so.... If you don’t want Palmeri fine but you are so under valuing him it’s insane

 

[Zezel22]

The biggest point I can make is that the Devils are not at the start of a rebuild or at a point of "burn it all down".

Players like Palmieri and Vatanen should be kept. The Devils already have a core of young players and prospects already playing in the NHL or about to make the step up in a year or two. Trading away vets for futures is not the best thing to do with this team.

OP, the difference between the Devils and Rangers rebuilds are clear. The Rangers have the draw of playing at MSG and being from NYC. The Rangers also had a lot more higher valued players to trade for futures than what the Devils had when Shero took over.

The Devils today are in a much healthier position than the Rangers were 20 months ago and I believe they'll be ahead of the Rangers when both teams young players enter their prime years.

Appreciate your post, I just disagree. The Devils are B A D at all levels of the organization. Signing Sami Vatanen, a concussion prone undersized Dman, to a long term deal well into his 30's is foolhardy IMO.

There are obviously differences and advantages the Rangers have. Obviously. But the league is not stepping in to even out those advantages anytime soon, so its the environment the Devils are in, like it or not.

Without studying the cause and effect chain of all their moves, its clear that Trouba and K'Andre Miller - two guys who are better than anything the Devils have, were acquired directly using assets they acquired from selling expiring vets. I'm sure there were some mom and pops in the stands and on the internet who were saying that they wanted to keep Hayes and Grabner cause they liked them so much, but thats why the rangers sent that letter, telling people we need to approach this dispassionately and clinically and build a new team around some basic core pieces. If the Devils are even toying with the idea of retaining Andy Greene, and to a lesser extent, Sami Vatanen, they will deserve what comes to them, as they deserve being where they are now.

 

[Zezel22]

What the Rangers have done is impressive in some ways, but let's also be honest- it looks like they rushed their rebuild too much. They took advantage of the appeal of NYC to get some big FAs, but they're being carried by Panarin and Zibs, both of who are going to be going on 30 and declining by the time their youth starts to peak. I think what the Rangers have done is become a perennial bubble team. I don't see them being a contender right now.

I'd much rather be in our position with more high draft picks this year and Nico & Jack, both of whom are better talents than any of the youngsters the rangers have. As for what should we do with our older players, it really depends. If Sami will re-sign a 4-5 year deal I'd keep him. He's a very good defenseman who we won't easily replace. Otherwise, SELL, SELL, SELL.
Palmieri is another interesting name, and I expect Gusev will be one too as he's really started to pick things up. I think you try to sign both to 4-5 year deals or move them. I wouldn't move either this year though unless the value is there. As for other players, you definitely sell if there's a decent offer (Greene probably fetches a 2nd at the deadline if we retain salary, maybe someone wants Zajac, but I see him staying put). The most interesting name to me, however, is Coleman. He's been a bright spot for us, but really doesn't fit our timeline. I don't know if another team will give us proper value for him, but maybe he can be part of a bigger package to get a better piece coming back. I also think we should start trying to package some of our lesser pieces into a better talent. We have too many players like Bratt/Butcher/McLeod/Wood, and even Severson and Zacha (although I think Zacha is particularly useful), and not enough high-end talent.

I agree with you in theory. We can disagree about Vatanen specifically but we agree they have to sell expiring assets. They have to.

By the way the Rangers farm system has catapulted past the Devils in the last 20 months. That has nothing to do with Panarin, Trouba etc. Thats the assets they have built. I dont think the Devils have more assets coming up than the Rangers. I think they have a good deal less.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Personally, nobody. I like Palmieri, but there's a couple of things about his game I don't like (defensively he's pretty poor, doesn't drive the play on his line) that would be enough for me not to pursue him.
If I were to pursue him, I would say Grzelcyk straight up. Or a 2nd + one of our D prospect not named Vaakanainen.

Yeah absolutely no incentive for the Devils to do that. If they truly were shopping him (and the shouldn’t be. One of the only guys who can actually put the puck in the net), they’d find better value elsewhere.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

- Palmieri is off limits barring ridiculous overpayment

- For Greene I’d take a 3rd

- For Vatanen I’d take a late 1st or 2nd+3rd

- For a retained Simmonds I’d take a 3rd

- For a retained Zajac I’d take a 2nd

- If we’re dealing Wood I’d like a roster player back

 

[Blackjack]

Greene can clear waivers. He has no value in 2020

He's far better than Lovejoy was last year, and Lovejoy returned Connor Carrick and a 3rd. Greene is still a reliable defender and is the top PK option and closes out games. Yes, he's certainly limited, and he doesn't produce much offense, but if a team wanted insurance against injury, Greene is a guy that can step in and play important minutes.

I'm not sure he'll be traded, he could be, but I imagine Shero will allow him to finish the year in NJ if that's what he wants.

 

[Erndog]

- Palmieri is off limits barring ridiculous overpayment

Dudes about to turn 29 and enter his final season this summer. Expiring when he's 30.

Strike while the irons hot I say. You'd get a solid return and realistically he's likely on the back 9 when the team (eventually) turns the corner.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Dudes about to turn 29 and enter his final season this summer. Expiring when he's 30.

Strike while the irons hot I say. You'd get a solid return and realistically he's likely on the back 9 when the team (eventually) turns the corner.

The team is so anemic offensively we just can’t afford to get rid of him. Yeah we’re not competing any time soon but Nico and Jack need someone to finish.

 

[SlapshotTheMovie]

He's far better than Lovejoy was last year, and Lovejoy returned Connor Carrick and a 3rd. Greene is still a reliable defender and is the top PK option and closes out games. Yes, he's certainly limited, and he doesn't produce much offense, but if a team wanted insurance against injury, Greene is a guy that can step in and play important minutes.

I'm not sure he'll be traded, he could be, but I imagine Shero will allow him to finish the year in NJ if that's what he wants.

When was the last time someone traded for a 37 year old bottom pair shut down guy who with max retension is making 2.5m dollars? I will wait.

 

[Blackjack]

When was the last time someone traded for a 37 year old bottom pair shut down guy who with max retension is making 2.5m dollars? I will wait.

"When was the last time the exact trade you're trying to make happened? I will wait!"

 

[BruinLVGA]

I’m calling Gryz a #6 defender... what you offered. And saying Palmeri doesn’t play defense shows you don’t watch him at all... he’s +1 on a team with a -37 goal differential. Palmeri is exactly what the Bruins need, a very good RW signed cheap. You’re negating his best asset by saying “yeah well if he doesn’t score he doesn’t do much...” but he does score so.... If you don’t want Palmeri fine but you are so under valuing him it’s insane

I didn't offer Grelczyk and a 2nd. If you talk about a #6D and a 2nd, the one I talked in conjunction with a 2nd would be Vaakanainen. That's what I wrote.

And in any case if Grelczyk is the 5th best overall defenseman in Boston, it doesn't mean that he's a #6D.
He's a young, very mobile, agile, offensive defenseman who loves driving the play, has great speed, skating, vision and a booming wrist shot. He's our 2nd best offensive D. And best of all, he isn't the finished product just yet, he has still room to evolve further. Judging by your D, he'd be significantly higher than #5. For one, your break outs are about as bad as I have seen and someone like Grelczyk carrying the puck out of your D zone would be just what the doctor ordered.

In the past 2 1/2 seasons I watched about 70-80 NJ games, purely to observe Hischier who happened to be Palmieri's center for 95% of that time. How many Bruins games did you watch?
+/- isn't exactly a wonderful stat, to use an euphemism, to judge how one plays D.
In those 70-80 games I saw, the spiel was Hischier trying very hard on D, Palmieri and Hall (more so the latter) ready to jump on the counter attack when/if the D and Hischier would get the puck back.

As I said, Palmieri wouldn't even remotely have the same opportunity in Boston, as 1. he wouldn't even get near first line duty and 2. here everybody is tasked with putting a 100% effort on D.
And as I also said, he's signed cheap only till the end of next season. For me, he's most definitely not worth Vaakanainen and a second. Grelczyk... It would be painful to lose him, but it would be worth him. Add a third for the extra season, max.
Oh and by the way,if you want to talk "insulting", in that other thread some NJ fan wanted Carlo for Palmieri. Now that's insulting.

 

[Blackjack]

The team is so anemic offensively we just can’t afford to get rid of him. Yeah we’re not competing any time soon but Nico and Jack need someone to finish.

Plenty of offensive talent would remain on the Devils. Nico, Gusev, Bratt, Zacha, Boqvist, Coleman, Hughes, etc.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Plenty of offensive talent would remain on the Devils. Nico, Gusev, Bratt, Zacha, Boqvist, Coleman, Hughes, etc.

That is not very much

 

[Blackjack]

As I said, Palmieri wouldn't even remotely have the same opportunity in Boston, as 1. he wouldn't even get near first line duty and 2. here everybody is tasked with putting a 100% effort on D.
And as I also said, he's signed cheap only till the end of next season. For me, he's most definitely not worth Vaakanainen and a second. Grelczyk... It would be painful to lose him, but it would be worth him. Add a third for the extra season, max.
Oh and by the way,if you want to talk "insulting", in that other thread some NJ fan wanted Carlo for Palmieri. Now that's insulting.

Would he have a spot on the power play? I think Palmieri can produce offense at even strength even if he's not on the top line, but if he's not getting decent power play time, then you're not benefitting as much from his shot, which is one of his real strengths. If there's not a spot for him on the half boards I don't know that it would be worth it for Boston.

 

[Blackjack]

That is not very much

I'm not sure how you can say that. We have seen each of these players demonstrate substantial scoring ability, it's just a matter of getting it out of them consistently.

 

[SlapshotTheMovie]

"When was the last time the exact trade you're trying to make happened? I will wait!"

Dude just even come close.

 

[Blackjack]

Dude just even come close.

Ben Lovejoy.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Yeah absolutely no incentive for the Devils to do that. If they truly were shopping him (and the shouldn’t be. One of the only guys who can actually put the puck in the net), they’d find better value elsewhere.

Fair enough. Seeing what Hall - a much superior player - fetched, I have doubts, but godspeed anyways.

 

[SlapshotTheMovie]

Ben Lovejoy.

Ben lovejoy was 3 years young and making half what andy greene does. The reason you cant get closer is because IT NEVER HAPPENS