GDT: Devils @ Flyers - 7 P.M. - Devils TV

[Ripshot 43]

You guys are debating Holtz? Here we are on a 4-0-0 preseason heater

 

[Lou is God]

Holtz had a goal last night and could have scored two more and people are ragging on him?? Jesus Christ

 

[JimEIV]

The real issue is Holtz is not good enough for this team. Not what line he plays on. Anybody who watch these games and can say they see improvement is lying.

 

[JimEIV]

Holtz had a goal last night and could have scored two more and people are ragging on him?? Jesus Christ

He was pretty bad overall. He made a nice play to jump past a defender to find open ice on his goal, but overall I thought he still didn't battle hard enough along the boards, he was terrible in his own zone and he still has that lost in the woods look to his game.

 

[Lou is God]

He was pretty bad overall. He made a nice play to jump past a defender to find open ice on his goal, but over I thought he still didn't battle hard enough along the boards, he was terrible in his own zone and he still that lost in the woods look to his game.

He was fine. I think everyone is spoiled with the rapid development of Nico, Jack and Dawson that they're now expecting the same trajectory from Holtz.

 

[guitarguyvic]

I don’t think simply scoring goals in meaningless preseason games is the indicator that Holtz took a step and is now nhl ready. I’m quite certain the coaching staff is looking for more than that…

 

[JimEIV]

He was fine. I think everyone is spoiled with the rapid development of Nico, Jack and Dawson that everyone is expecting the same trajectory from Holtz.

I mean ok... maybe he needs some more time? But he really isn't good enough as is to have a permanent top 9 spot on a team that has higher aspirations...

3 years ago we could've given him games but I think we're past that now.

 

[Hisch13r]

I mean ok... maybe he needs some more time? But he really isn't good enough as is to have a permanent top 9 spot on a team that has higher aspirations...

3 years ago we could've given him games but I think we're past that now.

We do not have a better option. Clarke sucks. Foote’s not good enough for the top 9. The rest are 4th liners. This team should be more than good enough to give Holtz some rope to get a grasp on if he’s good enough. Holtz in a top 9 role is not going to sink this team. Give him like 20 games with consistent top 9 time. He doesn’t work then you trade for a top 9 guy.

 

[Lou is God]

I mean ok... maybe he needs some more time? But he really isn't good enough as is to have a permanent top 9 spot on a team that has higher aspirations...

3 years ago we could've given him games but I think we're past that now.

Why can't we afford to give him games? If anything we now have the luxury to do that, even if it's shown he's not ready he's not going to sink the ship, we're waaaaay too good for that to happen.

 

[JimEIV]

We do not have a better option. Clarke sucks. Foote’s not good enough for the top 9. The rest are 4th liners. This team should be more than good enough to give Holtz some rope to get a grasp on if he’s good enough. Give him like 20 games with consistent top 9 time. He doesn’t work then you trade for a top 9 guy.

I'd rather move Lazar to the 3rd RW.

 

[Hisch13r]

I'd rather move Lazar to the 3rd RW.

lol

 

[Hisch13r]

I don't think Holtz was good or bad last night. He got caved just like basically the whole team did. That's bad. On the other hand he scored a goal and was either tied for the lead or lead the team in all of 5v5 shots, iCF, iSCF, ixG, iHDCF. That's good.

As long as Holtz is able to drive some offense, create some chances, and produce then I don't really care where the overall game is for him as a 21/22 year old. Establish what you're good at first. If he can do that but the overall game still leaves a ton to be desired then you bring in a better top 9 guy at the deadline. Then next year you hope with a year of actual NHL time and an offseason that the rest of the game can come aways. He's still pretty young and as long as the production is there then we can afford to be a little patient on the rest of his game.

 

[ninetyeight]

I mean ok... maybe he needs some more time? But he really isn't good enough as is to have a permanent top 9 spot on a team that has higher aspirations...

I disagree that he isn't good enough for top9, but even if he wasn't, we need to give our prospects a chance to make mistakes and learn. We did that with Hughes and it paid off (although he probably would have succeeded through any route) . Burying Holtz in the healthy scratch last year was a huge mistake and even if he gets to play in the AHL, not giving him a chance to learn but reject him third year in a row could be bad for his confidence and development.

 

[JimEIV]

I disagree that he isn't good enough for top9, but even if he wasn't, we need to give our prospects a chance to make mistakes and learn. We did that with Hughes and it paid off (although he probably would have succeeded through any route) . Burying Holtz in the healthy scratch last year was a huge mistake and even if he gets to play in the AHL, not giving him a chance to learn but reject him third year in a row could be bad for his confidence and development.

It's hard to say it was a mistake when we started winning as soon as his playing time was cut...now I'm not saying that's the reason why we won or lost...but when your doing everything in your power to win, Holtz is just not your best option.

 

[Hisch13r]

I disagree that he isn't good enough for top9, but even if he wasn't, we need to give our prospects a chance to make mistakes and learn. We did that with Hughes and it paid off (although he probably would have succeeded through any route) . Burying Holtz in the healthy scratch last year was a huge mistake and even if he gets to play in the AHL, not giving him a chance to learn but reject him third year in a row could be bad for his confidence and development.

He's already torched the AHL. He's not going to get any better down there. Let him sink or swim in the NHL. I wouldn't even mind him if this year he's just able to float rather actually swim yet

 

[TheUnseenHand]

The real issue is Holtz is not good enough for this team. Not what line he plays on. Anybody who watch these games and can say they see improvement is lying.

This isn't fair. His skating is undoubtedly improved. He looks like he can physically keep up with this team now which is not something we could say last season.

That said, I'm concerned with his mental game. I don't think he's ready there yet. His reads are better, but still leave much to be desired. And when he has the puck on his stick for more than a second or two, he turns into a grenade handler. I don't think he's ready for NHL top 6 minutes yet. The issue is, he is too good for the AHL. That is, I think the only way for him to have a chance at the NHL level is to learn at the NHL level, and I wonder how patient the organization would be with his growing pains now that we are in our window.

And now that I look all the way to the end of this thread I see @Hisch13r basically said the same thing.

 

[JimEIV]

This isn't fair. His skating is undoubtedly improved. He looks like he can physically keep up with this team now which is not something we could say last season.

That said, I'm concerned with his mental game. I don't think he's ready there yet. His reads are better, but still leave much to be desired. And when he has the puck on his stick for more and a second or two, he turns into a grenade handler. I don't think he's ready for NHL top 6 minutes yet. The issue is, he is too good for the AHL. That is, I think the only way for him to have a chance at the NHL level is to learn at the NHL level, and I wonder how patient the organization would be with his growing pains now that we are in our window.

And now that I look all the way to the end of this thread I see @Hisch13r basically said the same thing.

He had 19 games last year to learn...

You know how tough it is to be a -6 on a team that had a +67 goal differential?
No regular was a minus on the team.

And for the people that don't like plus/minus, his -8.3 relCF% tells the same story. Only Okhotyuk and Tyce were worse.

 

[Hisch13r]

This isn't fair. His skating is undoubtedly improved. He looks like he can physically keep up with this team now which is not something we could say last season.

That said, I'm concerned with his mental game. I don't think he's ready there yet. His reads are better, but still leave much to be desired. And when he has the puck on his stick for more and a second or two, he turns into a grenade handler. I don't think he's ready for NHL top 6 minutes yet. The issue is, he is too good for the AHL. That is, I think the only way for him to have a chance at the NHL level is to learn at the NHL level, and I wonder how patient the organization would be with his growing pains now that we are in our window.

And now that I look all the way to the end of this thread I see @Hisch13r basically said the same thing.

Yeah I do wonder how patient they’ll be. If they get off to a bad start and he’s a part of that then sure try and look for an upgrade. If they’re as good as they should be then just f***ing be patient at least until the deadline. If at that point you need someone better who can be trusted more for the totality of the rink for the playoffs then go get that. Don’t pull the chute early on Holtz if you don’t have to though.

He had 19 games last year to learn...

You how tough it is to be a -6 on a team that had a +67 goal differential?

And for the people that don't like plus/minus, his -8.3 relCF% tells the same story.

lol 19 games to learn where he was playing with scrubs. Definitely a position where Holtz is going to be able to learn his game

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

He had 19 games last year to learn...

You how tough it is to be a -6 on a team that had a +67 goal differential?
No regular was a minus on the team.

And for the people that don't like plus/minus, his -8.3 relCF% tells the same story. Only Okhotyuk and Tyce were worse.

Lowest on ice shooting%, lowest on ice save %. Not that tough. He stunk last year, but I do not care about his plus minus in that small set of games with spotty playing time.

 

[Devils731]

This Holtz discussion is generally weird.

He’s obviously faster and more engaged. He’s scored 2 goals. He’s had 1 pretty good game and 1 mediocre game.

Looking to last year is pointless since it’s no longer last year and Holtz is a growing player.

Implying Holtz at 21 has had time to show who he is but Thompson at 24 hasn’t had time is bad logic.

————-

@JimEIV should have learned that pointing to last season isn’t always the best way to project forward on prospects when he missed on Hughes so hard using the same type of reasoning.

 

[JimEIV]

This Holtz discussion is generally weird.

He’s obviously faster and more engaged. He’s scored 2 goals. He’s had 1 pretty good game and 1 mediocre game.

Looking to last year is pointless since it’s no longer last year and Holtz is a growing player.

Implying Holtz at 21 has had time to show who he is but Thompson at 24 isn’t even worse when viewed through that lense is bad logic.

————-

@JimEIV should have learned that pointing to last season isn’t always the best way to project forward on prospects when he missed on Hughes so hard using the same type of reasoning.

Hughes was being held to a much different standard. An elite standard.

Holtz D+4 still very much does not look NHL capable. The two situations aren't similar at all.

Oh and I'll forever stand by Hughes didn't belong in the league his first two years.... Maybe his second but definitely not 2020. He just wasn't NHL ready.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Hughes was being held to a much different standard. An elite standard.

Holtz D+4 still very much does not look NHL capable. The two situations aren't similar at all.

Oh and I'll forever stand by Hughes didn't belong in the league his first two years.... Maybe his second but definitely not 2020. He just wasn't NHL ready.

I’d say his development was handled as it needed to be given what he ended up turning into. The ass kicking was part of the process.

 

[JimEIV]

I’d say his development was handled as it needed to be given what he ended up turning into. The ass kicking was part of the process.

Lucky he didn't get really hurt.

But I don't buy that line of it being part of the process...what was it the worst rookie year from a #1 in 20+ years? No that's not part of the process.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

The real issue is Holtz is not good enough for this team. Not what line he plays on. Anybody who watch these games and can say they see improvement is lying.

considering your history with the majority of our best players in our lineup, lets just say I will take your opinion with a grain of salt.

This Holtz discussion is generally weird.

He’s obviously faster and more engaged. He’s scored 2 goals. He’s had 1 pretty good game and 1 mediocre game.

Looking to last year is pointless since it’s no longer last year and Holtz is a growing player.

Implying Holtz at 21 has had time to show who he is but Thompson at 24 hasn’t had time is bad logic.

————-

@JimEIV should have learned that pointing to last season isn’t always the best way to project forward on prospects when he missed on Hughes so hard using the same type of reasoning.

and Hischier. and Bratt.

 

[Devils731]

Nah. Don’t let @JimEIV turn his Hughes gigantic miss from “he’s a bust and disgrace” into “I just thought it was too early for him”.

The same logic Jim used then is the same logic he’s using now on Holtz. Holtz isn’t the slam dunk Hughes was but if Jim can’t see the obvious improved skating and engagement then it can’t be helped.

Everyone near the team has mentioned the improved skating and engagement and everyone has gotten to see it in the preseason so to not see it is a pretty enormous miss.