GDT: Devils @ Flyers - 7 P.M. - Devils TV

[NjDevsRR]

Just saw the highlights

 

[JimEIV]

Nah. Don’t let @JimEIV turn his Hughes gigantic miss from “he’s a bust and disgrace” into “I just thought it was too early for him”.

The same logic Jim used then is the same logic he’s using now on Holtz. Holtz isn’t the slam dunk Hughes was but if Jim can’t see the obvious improved skating and engagement then it can’t be helped.

Everyone near the team has mentioned the improved skating and engagement and everyone has gotten to see it in the preseason so to not see it is a pretty enormous miss.

I never ever once called him a bust or implied it....I called his first two years a disgrace and they pretty much were

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

 

[JimEIV]

Right. Exactly what I just said.

 

[Devils731]

I never ever once called him a bust or implied it....I called his first two years a disgrace and they pretty much were

Ok, quibble about the word bust when you lamented that a busy in Yakupov has outperformed him.

It doesn’t change the fact that you miss the boat on these guys because you reference past stats rather than seeing what they’re doing on the ice at the moment.

 

[JimEIV]

Ok, quibble about the word bust when you lamented that a busy in Yakupov has outperformed him.

It doesn’t change the fact that you miss the boat on these guys because you reference past stats rather than seeing what they’re doing on the ice at the moment.

Oh absolutely I did in the context of the worst rookie season from a #1 in more than a generation. I mean isn't that proof he didn't belong in the league?

Lafreniere is about to be run out New York he produced nearly identical as Jack in his first two years...he played 18 more games for his 52 points but they were equally as bad.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Oh absolutely I did in the context of the worst rookie season from a #1 on more than a generation. I mean isn't that proof he didn't belong in the league?

Lafreniere is about to be run out New York he produced nearly identical as Jack in his first two years...he played more 18 game for his 52 points but they were equally as bad.

now do their third years

 

[Devils731]

Oh absolutely I did in the context of the worst rookie season from a #1 in more than a generation. I mean isn't that proof he didn't belong in the league?

Lafreniere is about to be run out New York he produced nearly identical as Jack in his first two years...he played 18 more games for his 52 points but they were equally as bad.

at hand waving away an 18 game difference.

Back to Holtz.

Do you think he looks quicker this year? Do you think he looks more engaged this year?

If yes, do you think those will likely lead to improved play?

 

[JimEIV]

at hand waving away an 18 game difference.

Back to Holtz.

Do you think he looks quicker this year? Do you think he looks more engaged this year?

If yes, do you think those will likely lead to improved play?

Hand waiving away? They shut Jack down with 20 games left cause the beating he took. He simply didn't belong in the league at 18.

Back to Holtz...he still looks lost to me. That is my honest assessment. For a guy that has been a part of this organization for 3 years there looks to be zero refinement in game. That's a problem when we are trying to win games...

Will he improve? I don't know? But where he stands right now I don't think he should be in the lineup.
.

 

[Devils731]

Hand waiving away? They shut Jack down with 20 games left cause the beating he took. He simply didn't belong in the league at 18.

Back to Holtz...he still looks lost to me. That is my honest assessment. For a guy that has been a part of this organization for 3 years there looks to be zero refinement in game. That's a problem when we are trying to win games...

Will he improve? I don't know? But where he stands right now I don't think he should be in the lineup.
.

Why couldn’t you answer straightforward yes/no questions rather than equivocate?

I even made the last question qualified.

They should be easy to answer.

 

[JimEIV]

Why couldn’t you answer straightforward yes/no questions rather than equivocate?

I even made the last question qualified.

They should be easy to answer.

Unless I'm sworn in I don't give yes/no answers.... even then if the question requires context to answer you should always provide it.

 

[Lou Bloom]

We do not have a better option. Clarke sucks. Foote’s not good enough for the top 9. The rest are 4th liners. This team should be more than good enough to give Holtz some rope to get a grasp on if he’s good enough. Holtz in a top 9 role is not going to sink this team. Give him like 20 games with consistent top 9 time. He doesn’t work then you trade for a top 9 guy.

I don't get the argument that "The rest are 4th liners." therefore Holtz should make the team. You take the better player, not the player that plays a specific style that's not even needed on a team that already is projected as a Top 5 offense in the league. If Holtz isn't playing up to a NHL caliber than he shouldn't make the team and he shouldn't get a spot over guys that are performing better.

 

[JimEIV]

I don't get the argument that "The rest are 4th liners." therefore Holtz should make the team. You take the better player, not the player that plays a specific style that's not even needed on a team that already is projected as a Top 5 offense in the league. If Holtz isn't playing up to a NHL caliber than he shouldn't make the team and he shouldn't get a spot over guys that are performing better.

Seems pretty simple. Not sure where the controversy is?

 

[tailfins]

I can't comment on how Holtz looks.

But, I don't the team letting Holtz suck for 20 games. With the roster flexibility the Devils have, they'll shift away from him pretty quickly to look at other combos. This is people's livelihoods. People are playing for their next contract. Tierney makes an extra $375k by being in the NHL.

I do think the org is committed to giving Holtz a look this year. But, I think he gets somewhere between 7 - 10 games to prove he belongs. He can be inconsistent. He can make "rookie" mistakes. But, he needs to quickly show he can bring value to the team.

 

[Hisch13r]

I can't comment on how Holtz looks.

But, I don't the team letting Holtz suck for 20 games. With the roster flexibility the Devils have, they'll shift away from him pretty quickly to look at other combos. This is people's livelihoods. People are playing for their next contract. Tierney makes an extra $375k by being in the NHL.

I do think the org is committed to giving Holtz a look this year. But, I think he gets somewhere between 7 - 10 games to prove he belongs. He can be inconsistent. He can make "rookie" mistakes. But, he needs to quickly show he can bring value to the team.

The difference between Tierney and Holtz working out is massive for the team. The difference between Tierney and Holtz not being good is not going to make much of a difference at all. If he's making strides and showing stuff even if he's not great then you keep him in there and let him work through it.

 

[Aurinko]

I don't get the argument that "The rest are 4th liners." therefore Holtz should make the team. You take the better player, not the player that plays a specific style that's not even needed on a team that already is projected as a Top 5 offense in the league. If Holtz isn't playing up to a NHL caliber than he shouldn't make the team and he shouldn't get a spot over guys that are performing better.

Seems pretty simple. Not sure where the controversy is?

Would you say player X is better than Michael McLeod as a 4th line center? I expect answer to be "yes" compared to a number of players.

Would you replace Michael McLeod with this player X? I doubt it. I would not replace him with any possible or impossible player. I don't think there is a single player in the league that can do what he does, especially for the price he does. 60% faceoffs and GM7 winner, playing ridiculously good 68,8% goals% hockey with his line last season.

Just because Holtz is the better player (offensive production wise...) doesn't mean he can replace someone in the bottom lines and the team becomes automatically better. To get competivite results you need offensive/defensive game balance and chemistry with linemates. If it looks like he can't make the lines more competitive, he probably will not play many games this year. McLeod is obviously an unfair player to compare him into, but does make things easier to process.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

I don't get the argument that "The rest are 4th liners." therefore Holtz should make the team. You take the better player, not the player that plays a specific style that's not even needed on a team that already is projected as a Top 5 offense in the league. If Holtz isn't playing up to a NHL caliber than he shouldn't make the team and he shouldn't get a spot over guys that are performing better.

That’s all well and good. Why do you think Foote would be a better option than Holtz? He has looked anemic by the eye test (significantly slower) and worse by the advanced stats. Thompson is like the definition of just a guy and is made of glass. Your “if Holtz isn’t playing up to a NHL caliber” is doing all the work here. Nothing in the 2 games he’s played says that should be the expectation.

 

[tailfins]

The difference between Tierney and Holtz working out is massive for the team. The difference between Tierney and Holtz not being good is not going to make much of a difference at all. If he's making strides and showing stuff even if he's not great then you keep him in there and let him work through it.

If Holtz sucks for 7 - 10 games, you think that giving him an more games is somehow going to help? This isn't some family owned business where the owner's son gets to fail upward. (Edit: though, maybe it is in the minors with the various nepo signings?)

There's no value in turning Holtz into a serviceable player.The Devils have a bunch of those. Force feeding him games so he's finally able to keep his head above water does nothing.

Holtz either needs to show he can be a difference maker right now, or he needs to go somewhere else where he can develop into that.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

its just super weird to me to have your mind SO MADE UP already about a guy that has 2 goals in 2 preseason games and is 21 years old? Maybe its me idk

 

[JimEIV]

Would you say player X is better than Michael McLeod as a 4th line center? I expect answer to be "yes" compared to a number of players.

Would you replace Michael McLeod with this player X? I doubt it. I would not replace him with any possible or impossible player. I don't think there is a single player in the league that can do what he does, especially for the price he does. 60% faceoffs and GM7 winner, playing ridiculously good 68,8% goals% hockey with his line last season.

Just because Holtz is the better player (offensive production wise...) doesn't mean he can replace someone in the bottom lines and the team becomes automatically better. To get competivite results you need offensive/defensive game balance and chemistry with linemates. If it looks like he can't make the lines more competitive, he probably will not play many games this year. McLeod is obviously an unfair player to compare him into, but does make things easier to process.

I don't really value McLeod all that much. His faceoff ability to me is just a "nice to have". Nosek had close to the same FO% (59.3) last season...I wouldn't lose any sleep if Nosek replaced McLeod.

 

[Lou is God]

its just super weird to me to have your mind SO MADE UP already about a guy that has 2 goals in 2 preseason games and is 21 years old? Maybe its me idk

The takes in here on him are wild.

 

[JimEIV]

The takes in here on him are wild.

You think he's ready for full time NHL duty?

 

[Lou Bloom]

That’s all well and good. Why do you think Foote would be a better option than Holtz? He has looked anemic by the eye test (significantly slower) and worse by the advanced stats. Thompson is like the definition of just a guy and is made of glass. Your “if Holtz isn’t playing up to a NHL caliber” is doing all the work here. Nothing in the 2 games he’s played says that should be the expectation.

I'm not high on Foote either. You say Thompson is the "definition of just a guy" but he's been a more impactful player on the ice than Holtz, so what does that say about Holtz? I also wouldn't even agree with that assessment of Thompson. He's fast, has a good motor, aggressive on the forecheck and he's made good plays all over the ice. I bet you would have parroted a lot of the same things about Blake Coleman prior to the 2017-2018 season due to his AHL performance and injury history. All I'm basing my opinions on is who's showing out better in camp and right now I have a much better opinion of Thompson's game than I do of Holtz's.

 

[Lou is God]

You think he's ready for full time NHL duty?

I would like to find out, sticking him back down in the AHL won't get us our answers. But let's look at both of our track records when it comes to young prospects, you were adamant that Nico and Jack were never going to be this good (I did), so why should anyone trust your takes on Holtz today? You have the same mentality towards young players as a Mike Milbury did. You have no patience for them to develop.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Also, here is the thing- we dont NEED Holtz to be an all-around great player. We need him to score goals.

We have enough all around forwards. Its okay if one guy is strictly offense. Especially when he is like your 8th or 9th best option theoretically.