Development of Russians in CHL v KHL

[Frk It]

Malkin is at worst the 3rd best player in the world over the past decade and will make the HOF the first year he is eligible. When he's on and pissed off, he's completely 100% unstoppable.

Perhaps I'm unaware, but who said Svechnikov would be the next Malkin?

They have to raise the bar high enough to something Svechnikov can't reach so they can blame NA for ruining him.

 

[Atas2000]

Malkin is at worst the 3rd best player in the world over the past decade and will make the HOF the first year he is eligible. When he's on and pissed off, he's completely 100% unstoppable.

Perhaps I'm unaware, but who said Svechnikov would be the next Malkin?

See. North America is the Moon. Welcome to the real world. There are places where you don't follow hockey, but other people do. He was projected to be the next genrational talent since he was 15, just like McDavid.

 

[member 157595]

Who says that doesn't happen to them in NA? Most of the time that is exactly the same pattern on both sides of the pond. There are narratives about Russia people in NA want to believe(I have no other explanation). But how about reality? You want to make the big team you have to earn it. That means playing limited minutes or being sent down. Anywhere in the world.

What I was trying to say is that young kids need to play, whether at home or abroad. Playing at home would be my preference for Russians, I thought I made that clear. That doesn't necessarily mean the KHL, it could mean the MHL if a player isn't ready since as you stated a player needs to earn playing time. But the KHL organization needs to do the right thing for the developing player, and just like North American hockey organizations, sometimes they f*** it up.

I have no interest in talking about agendas, or narratives, or any of that other shit. If you're going to reply to me, please address my points and not a bunch of rhetorical crap I don't care about.

Btw by playing in the CHL in their draft year Russians block their own path to the AHL. That is utter stupidity.

Aren't you arguing that Russians should stay home until they don't need to play in the AHL anyways?

And except for the languafe wtf is that huge difference in lifestyle? Sometimes I have to think Americams live on the Moon or something.

If we did live on the Moon, would that not be a difference in lifestyle?

 

[Hfbsux]

Sergachev and Provorov are Dmen, so it doesn't apply to them.
Kucherov played only one season in the CHL, it doesn't apply to him.
Svechnikov has not achieved anything yet, so it doesn't apply to him.

/end thread

 

[vorky]

The biggest problem are agents and the NHL clubs. Agents say fairlytales to the prospects and their parents, the NHL clubs do the same and wants to control a player/prospect as soon as possible. Let the players to play at home until they are the NHl ready. No need to play American/Canadian major juniors or the AHL. Go directly to the NHL.

Another problem is de facto corruption by the CHL and the NHL on global stage. They forced other hockey entities to respect their (NHL) rules, especially transfer rules. The NHL has been great in killing European (and worldwide) hockey for decades.

 

[Atas2000]

Aren't you arguing that Russians should stay home until they don't need to play in the AHL anyways?



If we did live on the Moon, would that not be a difference in lifestyle?

I am a realist. Ideally they would not leave Russia at all and play for me in person at an arena I can go to regularily at a time of day that is convenient to me. IRL most of them are not exactly smart, especialy at an age we are talking about here. They will continue to leave(and for most of them that will go along with hurting their development). If they have that itch, they could at least give themselves a reasonable option of playing in the AHL instead of juniors. Again, in a better wortld they'd be smart enough to see that the russian system without those rules allows them way more options(MHL, VHL, KHL). But sometimes you also have to leave the comfort zone and something like say Gusev and sign with a KHL bottom feeder to get that chance to play and show what you are capable of so then you can become hot commodity and choose where you WANT to sign.

I think the major problem with the players themselves that they mistakenly think that if they move to NA juniors a NHL contract will miraculously materialize itself in front of them in a year or two at the max. They also get a lot of help with this way of thinking from agents, NA scouts and even parents. Again, realistically they will continue to make those mistakes and I can only hope the understanding will even if slowly get to them in the future. For now we are looking at a wasted generation and a huge hole coming up for the russian NT.

Living on the Moon would certainly demand a very different lifestyle. Living in Russia or the US is not that much of a difference nowadays.

 

[snipes]

Russian D men develop better in the CHL.

 

[vorky]

I will add a few words to @Atas2000 posts.

I will really never understand why a prospect chooses to limit his career options by moving to the Canadian/American juniors too early.

They leave at the age of 16 or 17 to play junior hockey in Canada. His KHL club controls his KHL rights until 28 or so (the exact age is not important, definitelly it is over 26/27). He is drafted, if lucky enough, by the NHL who control his NHL rights for some period of time as well. So, a player is 18y old and has two clubs where he can play. Or he can continue playing the Canadian major juniors because he can not play the AHL.

If he stay in Russia for following 3 years, he has the MHL, the VHL and the KHL options. After that period of time, at the age of 20, he can play for any KHL team (accepting offer sheet). If he is drafted by the NHL team, he has the NHL option as well, or playing the AHL. If he is not drafted by the NHL, he can choose whatever club he wants. There are examples of not drafted players who has made it to the NHL (even star status). And of course, he can play his moving to Canada/America to play only one year of ELC (with maximum salary + bonuses).

The ideal scenario is to stay at home, develop into key player in the KHL, and not to be drafted by the NHL club (or play to move to play one-year ELC).

The worst scenario is to move at 16-17, play the Canadian major junior and be drafted by a NHL club.

 

[ProspectsSTC]

Tell me more about a player I follow since he was 15. You are a great storyteller.

Maybe you're just not great at evaluating talent, Svechnikov has done nothing but impress and progress in NA

 

[Atas2000]

Maybe you're just not great at evaluating talent, Svechnikov has done nothing but impress and progress in NA

Compared what?

 

[Mrb1p]

I will add a few words to @Atas2000 posts.

I will really never understand why a prospect chooses to limit his career options by moving to the Canadian/American juniors too early.

They leave at the age of 16 or 17 to play junior hockey in Canada. His KHL club controls his KHL rights until 28 or so (the exact age is not important, definitelly it is over 26/27). He is drafted, if lucky enough, by the NHL who control his NHL rights for some period of time as well. So, a player is 18y old and has two clubs where he can play. Or he can continue playing the Canadian major juniors because he can not play the AHL.

If he stay in Russia for following 3 years, he has the MHL, the VHL and the KHL options. After that period of time, at the age of 20, he can play for any KHL team (accepting offer sheet). If he is drafted by the NHL team, he has the NHL option as well, or playing the AHL. If he is not drafted by the NHL, he can choose whatever club he wants. There are examples of not drafted players who has made it to the NHL (even star status). And of course, he can play his moving to Canada/America to play only one year of ELC (with maximum salary + bonuses).

The ideal scenario is to stay at home, develop into key player in the KHL, and not to be drafted by the NHL club (or play to move to play one-year ELC).

The worst scenario is to move at 16-17, play the Canadian major junior and be drafted by a NHL club.

Or, you can play in the NHL, which is what most hockey players dream of, and make money doing it, and have a great career.

All of this is just KHL propaganda to keep the talent at home because the KHL is losing steam... keep drinking the Koolaid.

 

[vorky]

Or, you can play in the NHL, which is what most hockey players dream of, and make money doing it, and have a great career.

All of this is just KHL propaganda to keep the talent at home because the KHL is losing steam... keep drinking the Koolaid.

Choosing from one KHL side and one NHL side. And choosing from 25 KHL clubs and 31 NHL clubs is different. Do not think? Why to limit your options if you do not have to?

 

[vorky]

The VHL active players list consists of 30 players for the season. Maximum of 15 players can be elder than 25 years, including maximum of 5 guys elder than 29 years. So, there is a lot of spots for young players.

2017-18

U18: VHL (7 F/D + 2 G), AHL (0)
U19: VHL (25 F/D + 1G), AHL (18 F/D + 1 G)
U20: VHL (81 F/D + 10 G), AHL (22 F/D + 1 G)

Number of players per age, higher age group does not include guys from lower one. So, total of 113 players younger than 20 yrs played the VHL (plus 13 goalies). If looking at the AHL, the numbers are much lower, 40 prospects + 2 goalies.

 

[Atas2000]

[QUOTE="Mrb1p, post: 148645963, member: 142887"All of this is just KHL propaganda to keep the talent at home because the KHL is losing steam... keep drinking the Koolaid.[/QUOTE]
Pro aatletes never strike me as above average smart. Dreaming of playing in the NHL is part of it. I get the money part. Other than that if you have a brain you dream of playing on the NT and winning international tournaments if you are not adept to the extremely rural NA ideology of living in a small world and not knowing or caring much about what's going on outside your county.

The major LOL effect you caused again with that propaganda comment. Which propaganda would that be? If anyone NHL is investing big into hyping up it's product that is losing steam. Yes, for now tgey are making the money, but that's how propaganda works. There are millions of idiots chewing on fast-food from those advertised junk outlets. That's the real world, but that doesn't make that junk food something a human being should eat.

You wishful thinking about the KHL is rather hilarious too. NHL propagandais the source?

 

[vorky]

An interesting story of a parent of a Russian CHL player.

A parent of a Russian CHL player to sport24.ru: We made a mistake by sending our son to play Canadian major juniors. It would be better for him to stay in Europe.

key points

- there are good and bad organisations
- eating pizza is not what should happen to a prospect. Generally bad eating habbits there.
- playing video games all the time, until 3 am
- living in a basement
- nepotism and corruption if they want their Canadian kid to play a major junior, there are cases when a mom needs to have sex with an official/coach
- some clubs are really terrible for player´s development, even local kids do not want to play there
- London is good organisation
- agents talking fairy tales to Russian prospects and their parents. Like "everything is super over there." Yes, an opinion of an agent was a key factor for our decision
- link includes a list of payments of a club (in ENG) - import player benefit summary

 

[Daximus]

An interesting story of a parent of a Russian CHL player.



key points

- there are good and bad organisations
- eating pizza is not what should happen to a prospect. Generally bad eating habbits there.
- playing video games all the time, until 3 am
- living in a basement
- nepotism and corruption if they want their Canadian kid to play a major junior, there are cases when a mom needs to have sex with an official/coach
- some clubs are really terrible for player´s development, even local kids do not want to play there
- London is good organisation
- agents talking fairy tales to Russian prospects and their parents. Like "everything is super over there." Yes, an opinion of an agent was a key factor for our decision
- link includes a list of payments of a club (in ENG) - import player benefit summary

1. There are good and bad organizations in every league.
2. Canadians produce some of the best players of all time, which I'm sure have eaten pizza and survived. Maybe even with extra cheese.
3. Is playing video games until 3am only a Canadian thing?
4. Not every billet has players living in their basement. I guarantee some of these billets have homes twice the size of the homes some kids come from in Russia and they might even be living on the main floor.
5. Really there is cases where a mom living in Russia has to fly to Canada to have sex with a coach to get there kid on the team? Complete and utter bullshit.
6. Again all leagues have clubs that are shitty at development, sky is also blue.
7. London is always going to be a great organization to Russian parents.. hahaha gee wonder why?
8. "Everything is super there" seems like a pretty vague statement to base a life changing decision on...

 

[Daximus]

Pro aatletes never strike me as above average smart. Dreaming of playing in the NHL is part of it. I get the money part. Other than that if you have a brain you dream of playing on the NT and winning international tournaments if you are not adept to the extremely rural NA ideology of living in a small world and not knowing or caring much about what's going on outside your county.

The major LOL effect you caused again with that propaganda comment. Which propaganda would that be? If anyone NHL is investing big into hyping up it's product that is losing steam. Yes, for now tgey are making the money, but that's how propaganda works. There are millions of idiots chewing on fast-food from those advertised junk outlets. That's the real world, but that doesn't make that junk food something a human being should eat.

You wishful thinking about the KHL is rather hilarious too. NHL propagandais the source?

There have been plenty of stories about how shady the KHL is from actual players playing in it. The NHL doesn't need to start the propaganda machine about the KHL they do a fine job casting a shadow on themselves.

 

[Kshahdoo]

1. There are good and bad organizations in every league.
2. Canadians produce some of the best players of all time, which I'm sure have eaten pizza and survived. Maybe even with extra cheese.
3. Is playing video games until 3am only a Canadian thing?
4. Not every billet has players living in their basement. I guarantee some of these billets have homes twice the size of the homes some kids come from in Russia and they might even be living on the main floor.
5. Really there is cases where a mom living in Russia has to fly to Canada to have sex with a coach to get there kid on the team? Complete and utter bull****.
6. Again all leagues have clubs that are ****ty at development, sky is also blue.
7. London is always going to be a great organization to Russian parents.. hahaha gee wonder why?
8. "Everything is super there" seems like a pretty vague statement to base a life changing decision on...

It's not about this player's mom, though, but a general rule: you want your kid on the CHL team, you gotta have sex with someone, who makes decisions. At least, it's what the interview says... well, actually, it's not a general rule, but according to the interview, this happens, and she (or he) even knows about certain cases.

 

[Mrb1p]

An interesting story of a parent of a Russian CHL player.



key points

- there are good and bad organisations
- eating pizza is not what should happen to a prospect. Generally bad eating habbits there.
- playing video games all the time, until 3 am
- living in a basement
- nepotism and corruption if they want their Canadian kid to play a major junior, there are cases when a mom needs to have sex with an official/coach
- some clubs are really terrible for player´s development, even local kids do not want to play there
- London is good organisation
- agents talking fairy tales to Russian prospects and their parents. Like "everything is super over there." Yes, an opinion of an agent was a key factor for our decision
- link includes a list of payments of a club (in ENG) - import player benefit summary

What a load ot shit

 

[Daximus]

It's not about this player's mom, though, but a general rule: you want your kid on the CHL team, you gotta have sex with someone, who makes decisions. At least, it's what the interview says.

The article might say it but I call bullshit on that. Some of these teams are practically begging for these kids to come play for them. I seriously doubt that is happening. Sounds like some garbage propaganda to scare Russian parents into keeping their kids at home for fear of having to have sex with some coach in North America. Complete and utter bullshit. Whose parent is this in the interview?

 

[Kshahdoo]

The article might say it but I call bull**** on that. Some of these teams are practically begging for these kids to come play for them. I seriously doubt that is happening. Sounds like some garbage propaganda to scare Russian parents into keeping their kids at home for fear of having to have sex with some coach in North America. Complete and utter bull****. Whose parent is this in the interview?

Of course, if it's Russians it's propaganda, if it's Canadians, it's #metoo.

 

[Mrb1p]

Bad eating habits... maybe your kid is the lazy jackass whod rather eat pizza than rice and ground beef...

 

[vorky]

1. There are good and bad organizations in every league.
2. Canadians produce some of the best players of all time, which I'm sure have eaten pizza and survived. Maybe even with extra cheese.
3. Is playing video games until 3am only a Canadian thing?
4. Not every billet has players living in their basement. I guarantee some of these billets have homes twice the size of the homes some kids come from in Russia and they might even be living on the main floor.
5. Really there is cases where a mom living in Russia has to fly to Canada to have sex with a coach to get there kid on the team? Complete and utter bull****.
6. Again all leagues have clubs that are ****ty at development, sky is also blue.
7. London is always going to be a great organization to Russian parents.. hahaha gee wonder why?
8. "Everything is super there" seems like a pretty vague statement to base a life changing decision on...

You need to understand that I just picked headlines, you need to read the article to see all details. One such detail is that it differs team by team, family by family (billets)

A mother expressed their opinion that Canadian families do not take eating habbits too seriously, no breakfast, a pizza for a dinner. Not the best thing for a prospect. Russians are used to another way of living, especially sportsmen.

It is not only about video games, but a regime which is not beneficial for a young prospect.

Yes, not every billet. To quote her, even if a billet is big, a player living in the basement. Not my words, just quoting.

Russian prospects moving to Canada due to not getting chance in Russia. She just said the same happens in Canada when a local prospect can buy his ice time.

Agree, a pretty vague statement for such a decision. And that is a problem. Parents and players are misinformed, they lie to them.

 

[Daximus]

Of course, if it's Russians it's propaganda, if it's Canadians, it's #metoo.

Provide proof of this happening, give me the name of literally one person who has come forward about having to have sex with a coach to get their kid to play for a team that drafted them.

The #metoo movement is all about coming out to the public about these events. If this is really happening have some Russian parents come out about it and the matter will surely be investigated. Until then it is 100% hearsay and likely propaganda from a country desperate to keep their kids playing in their floundering league.

 

[Mrb1p]

Of course, if it's Russians it's propaganda, if it's Canadians, it's #metoo.

The problem doesnt lie in claiming it doesnt happen, it might be happening, theres bad people every where and the CHL is probably not cut off from this. The problem is acting like this is a NA exclusive thing, it can happen anywhere, people try to take advantage in every single country, its not exclusive to a certain culture, its the nature of our system.