Development of Russians in CHL v KHL

[YWGinYYZ]

Cut out the politics, or we'll ban those who participate. This thread is about the CHL vs. KHL, not Russia vs. Canada vs. the US. Continue, and you'll end up warned and thread banned.

Thanks!

 

[LordNeverLose]

I really don't get this article. The sex thing seems flat-out made up, and pretty much all the other things don't seem CHL specific at all.

 

[wings5]

Current Petes rookie defenceman expresses perhaps what most young Russians think when going early to Canada and the CHL

Guryev was born in Moscow, Russia, and moved to Toronto three years ago after a friend told him of the calibre of hockey there.

"The hockey is way better in Canada. Some people in Canada are tough and that's why I came here," he said.
It wasn't easy for a 12-year-old to come to a foreign country knowing no English.
"It was pretty tough in the start," he said. "I couldn't speak English at all. I couldn't say 'hello.' "
But there was never a moment where he doubted his decision or thought of returning home. Hockey was his language and way of connecting with people.
"Hockey is basically like life," he said. "I can't live without hockey. Hockey is really important for me."

Petes pick a physical defenceman who likes to hit

 

[Kshahdoo]

Current Petes rookie defenceman expresses perhaps what most young Russians think when going early to Canada and the CHL



Petes pick a physical defenceman who likes to hit

So did anybody expect, this kid would have said, Canadian hockey sucked? It would be more interesting to hear from him, why did all those Russians suck after they moved to NA.

I mean, our development system does have a lot of problems. Fetisov lately spoke about corruption in kid hockey, where parents buying 1st line spots for their kids, and of course, it sucks. But those things mostly get away, when it comes to elite youth hockey at age 14 and older, because at this age the most talented kids start to play for pro teams' systems, where corruption is at much lower level. And when it comes to 15-16 year olds and older, I doubt, it's even possible to buy any spot on the team, let alone on the 1st line.

So you won't see a lot of complaints about Russian system from kids, who're at the threshold of their pro careers, and it's what this thread about.

 

[Atas2000]

I really don't get this article. The sex thing seems flat-out made up, and pretty much all the other things don't seem CHL specific at all.

There are various and numerous stories now. I don't think it can be all made up. And it seems like it IS the CHL.

 

[Atas2000]

Current Petes rookie defenceman expresses perhaps what most young Russians think when going early to Canada and the CHL



Petes pick a physical defenceman who likes to hit

Very little insightful input from him though. And he came as a 12y.o. I doubt he has a well founded opinion on that comparison. Sounds like hockey in Canada is better because reasons. Sounds dumb. And that's the core of the problem for those young Russians. Dumb decisions.

 

[ijuka]

Essentially, my opinion is that CHL would work well if people could progress, but runs into issues because of its agreement with NHL and AHL. In Russia, if a player's too good for MHL, they will play in VHL and even KHL if they can handle it, which is a lot more useful for development. In my opinion, many of the CHL prospects essentially waste a year of development because they're forced to go back to a league they're too good for.

If we think about long-term development, many Russian players who weren't that great at 17, 18 years of age end up becoming very formidable as they grow older and the development is rather steady long-term. CHL prospects tend to be better earlier, but the CHL transfer agreement in my opinion hinders the players' development from the ages where such a stepping stone would be usual, which tends to be from around age 17 or 18 and on. Even ECHL would in my eyes be a much better solution for these players who aren't good enough for AHL. CHL is much more like a children's playground, which is good before one's 18 years of age, but a waste of time afterwards - for higher end prospects. And well, it's never good for anyone serious to be one of the oldest players in an age group league. It's paramount for a person to challenge themselves at all times, and playing with 16-year-olds at the age of 19 does not do that.

 

[Daximus]

Essentially, my opinion is that CHL would work well if people could progress, but runs into issues because of its agreement with NHL and AHL. In Russia, if a player's too good for MHL, they will play in VHL and even KHL if they can handle it, which is a lot more useful for development. In my opinion, many of the CHL prospects essentially waste a year of development because they're forced to go back to a league they're too good for.

If we think about long-term development, many Russian players who weren't that great at 17, 18 years of age end up becoming very formidable as they grow older and the development is rather steady long-term. CHL prospects tend to be better earlier, but the CHL transfer agreement in my opinion hinders the players' development from the ages where such a stepping stone would be usual, which tends to be from around age 17 or 18 and on. Even ECHL would in my eyes be a much better solution for these players who aren't good enough for AHL. CHL is much more like a children's playground, which is good before one's 18 years of age, but a waste of time afterwards - for higher end prospects. And well, it's never good for anyone serious to be one of the oldest players in an age group league. It's paramount for a person to challenge themselves at all times, and playing with 16-year-olds at the age of 19 does not do that.

I agree but it does have an inverse reaction when you compare 16 year old developement to any other league in the world. When most of the best 19 year olds are playing in a higher tier. I've always though we need a major change in Canada but as long as the CHL exists and makes money nothing will change.

 

[Lebowski]

Essentially, my opinion is that CHL would work well if people could progress, but runs into issues because of its agreement with NHL and AHL. In Russia, if a player's too good for MHL, they will play in VHL and even KHL if they can handle it, which is a lot more useful for development. In my opinion, many of the CHL prospects essentially waste a year of development because they're forced to go back to a league they're too good for.

If we think about long-term development, many Russian players who weren't that great at 17, 18 years of age end up becoming very formidable as they grow older and the development is rather steady long-term. CHL prospects tend to be better earlier, but the CHL transfer agreement in my opinion hinders the players' development from the ages where such a stepping stone would be usual, which tends to be from around age 17 or 18 and on. Even ECHL would in my eyes be a much better solution for these players who aren't good enough for AHL. CHL is much more like a children's playground, which is good before one's 18 years of age, but a waste of time afterwards - for higher end prospects. And well, it's never good for anyone serious to be one of the oldest players in an age group league. It's paramount for a person to challenge themselves at all times, and playing with 16-year-olds at the age of 19 does not do that.

Is there anyone outside of Panarin that came to the NHL only later in his career and had a significant impact?

 

[Daximus]

Is there anyone outside of Panarin that came to the NHL only later in his career and had a significant impact?

Tarasenko, Kuznetsov come to mind.

 

[Lebowski]

Tarasenko, Kuznetsov come to mind.

They were both 1st round picks that came over in their early 20s so I’m not sure how it applies to them. It’s not like they were passed over multiple times at the draft, had a steady development curve and when they finally crossed over had an immediate impact.

These things happen but they don’t happen often. Panarin is one example, and there’s examples from NA leagues as well like Marchessault. I don’t know how one could assume that this is a more likely occurence for a player that stays in Russia based on how their development leagues are structured compared to the CHL, which is what the poster I quoted was saying.

 

[Daximus]

They were both 1st round picks that came over in their early 20s so I’m not sure how it applies to them. It’s not like they were passed over multiple times at the draft, had a steady development curve and when they finally crossed over had an immediate impact.

These things happen but they don’t happen often. Panarin is one example, and there’s examples from NA leagues as well like Marchessault. I don’t know how one could assume that this is a more likely occurence for a player that stays in Russia based on how their development leagues are structured compared to the CHL, which is what the poster I quoted was saying.

They just stayed in Russia to develop rather then head to the CHL. Which is what this entire thread is about.

 

[Lebowski]

They just stayed in Russia to develop rather then head to the CHL. Which is what this entire thread is about.

Still not the point that I addressed in the post I originally quoted, but you do you.

 

[Daximus]

Still not the point that I addressed in the post I originally quoted, but you do you.

That post was literally talking about the developement of 19 year olds in the CHL vs the KHL system. Dont have to do me, I just have to read.

 

[Atas2000]

Add Goldobin to the long list of russian CHL failures. Waived.

 

[Atas2000]

They were both 1st round picks that came over in their early 20s so I’m not sure how it applies to them. It’s not like they were passed over multiple times at the draft, had a steady development curve and when they finally crossed over had an immediate impact.

These things happen but they don’t happen often. Panarin is one example, and there’s examples from NA leagues as well like Marchessault. I don’t know how one could assume that this is a more likely occurence for a player that stays in Russia based on how their development leagues are structured compared to the CHL, which is what the poster I quoted was saying.

Don't try too hard.

2 Vezinas is a thing to you? Then you claim that 1st rounders don't count. Why? So we can get rid of Nail Yakupov in the discussion? First of all they do count. Both ways. How many russian first rounders busted after taking the CHL route? How many first rounders who developed in Russia busted?

Let's have a look at those 1st rounders, divided by the development path(Russia vs. NA as some of them jumped right to the NHL) cut off at 20y.o.

Since 2008(the year the KHL started, thus the new russian development system we discuss in this thread started existing):


Filatov vs. Tikhonov(I grant you Tikhonov while he left at age 20 exactly)

Kulikov

Burmistrov vs. Kuznetsov,Tarasenko

Namestnikov

Yakupov, Grigorenko vs. Vasilevskiy

Nichushkin, Zadorov

Scherbak, Goldobin

Provorov, Gurianov, E.Svechnikov vs. Samsonov

Sergachyov, Rubtsov

We count a full-time NHLer as a development success, right?

There are of course some special cases:

Tikhonov as I wrote who left at 20. Hard to tell if it was too early, too late or he just never was good enough, but that's right where I drew that line, because you have to draw it somewhere. Of course for some players it's best to stay in Russia even longer, but 20 is that age I am most certain they never should leave before.

Namestnikov did not have the culture and language barriers as he grew up in the US. Obviously still a CHL product for our discussion here, no doubt.

Same goes for Provorov who started in NA at 14. So I count him personally as partially the US devlopment system for D-men which is great. But, yeah, I will give him to you as a NA product as well.

Defencemen save the honor for the NA path somewhat. That's 5 NHLers on the NA side. All but one of them defencemen(it was thoroughly discussed in all those threads. Russian D development is bad. That's just an another simple fact. For defencemen that NA path seems to work better.)

Nonetheless it's 5 out of 14. 9 out 0f 14 first rounders who developed in NA before turning 20 busted. Period.

On Russia's side it's only Tikhonov. Kuznetsov, Tarasenko and Vasilevskiy are stars in the league. Samsonov will be starter, I am pretty sure about that. Maybe too earl for a goalie, but again I had to cut off somewhere, so I did at the two last drafts as those guys are exactly reaching that 20 years of age right now or are younger still.

AND THAT's ONLY THE FIRST ROUNDERS. In later rounds the evidence just gets even more damning.

Dadonov recovered his development in Russia. Radulov finished his molding into a star in Russia, while he did a reverse in a way. Played in the CHL until 19 and jumped back to Russia.

Buchnevich is a full-timer already at the least. What Russians are there else worth mentioning in the NHL? The success stories seem to be overwhelmingly guys who developed in Russia.

And Panarin is not the a single abomination. There is Bobrovskiy, there are Gusev and Kaprizov coming in soon(and they are locks to succeed, I am taking every bet.).

And on the other side if we go through the list of top Russians in every crop(look up the WJC teams) there are tons of guys busting after the CHL. Goldobin just got waived, Abramov can't make the roster for how many years now? The list is long and dreadful.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Add Goldobin to the long list of russian CHL failures. Waived.

Because clearly the 5 years away from the CHL has had nothing to do with his development as a player

 

[Atas2000]

Because clearly the 5 years away from the CHL has had nothing to do with his development as a player

At the age in question here he played two full seasons in the CHL, then as a loan in Finland and for now 4 seasons in the AHL. That is exactly the point of discussion. The guy was one of the top prospects out of Russia and one of the WJC team's stars. Drafted in the first round. The guy chose the CHL/AHL route and failed.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

At the age in question here he played two full seasons in the CHL, then as a loan in Finland and for now 4 seasons in the AHL. That is exactly the point of discussion. The guy was one of the top prospects out of Russia and one of the WJC team's stars. Drafted in the first round. The guy chose the CHL/AHL route and failed.

I think it wouldn't have mattered what he had chosen he would have failed.

It is like me suggesting that every single "failed" Canadian draft pick would have succeeded only if they decided to go to the KHL and play.

I think players fail because either they are not good enough to play but that is just me

 

[Atas2000]

I think it wouldn't have mattered what he had chosen he would have failed.

It is like me suggesting that every single "failed" Canadian draft pick would have succeeded only if they decided to go to the KHL and play.

I think players fail because either they are not good enough to play but that is just me

Read my post above. Statistically speaking there is evidence. You can disagree of course, but I see a pretty obvious discrepancy.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Read my post above. Statistically speaking there is evidence. You can disagree of course, but I see a pretty obvious discrepancy.

Since 2011 NHL 1st round picks russian. Heck I will add the 2nd round picks too.



2011
Namestikov - NHLer. CHL
Khokhlachev - Bust. CHL
Kucherov - NHLer. CHL

2012
Galchenyuk - NHLer. CHL
Grigorenko - Bust. CHL
Vasilevsky - NHLer. KHL

2013
Nikuschkin - Big year for him, could bust out. KHL
Zadorov - NHLer. CHL
Burakovsky - NHLer. CHL
Zykov - NHLer. CHL

2014
Goldobin - Just waived today. Heading to bust. CHL
Scherbak - Back in the KHL. CHL
Barbashev- NHLer. CHL
Kamenev - Maybe. KHL
Letunov - Maybe. CHL(USHL but the same for this experiment)

2015
Provorov - NHLer. CHL
Gurianov - Maybe. KHL
Svechnikov - Maybe. CHL
Samsonov - Maybe. KHL
Trenin - Maybe. CHL

2016
Sergachev - NHLer. CHL
Rubstov - Maybe. CHL
Korshkov - Maybe. KHL
Kayumov- Maybe. KHL


What is wrong with that? Again its up to the player. I watched alot of Scherbak in the WHL and he was talented but lazy, just like a lot of players I have watched over the years regardless of where they were born.

 

[Zine]

I think it wouldn't have mattered what he had chosen he would have failed.

It is like me suggesting that every single "failed" Canadian draft pick would have succeeded only if they decided to go to the KHL and play.

I think players fail because either they are not good enough to play but that is just me

You're failing to look into why players aren't good enough to play. This can be due to a myriad of reasons beyond innate skill level; and why development and development path is so crucial.

And no, your suggestion that every single "failed" Canadian draft pick would have succeeded only if they decided to go to the KHL doesn't mirror Atas2000 point at all.
For the same reasons the CHL ruins most Russians, if a Canadian kid was dropped in the middle of, say, Magnitogorsk at age 15-19, it would also be a disaster for his development.

 

[deejb]

Kucherov - NHLer. CHL + AHL 50 games, KHL +MHL 144 games
Galchenyuk - NHLer. CHL is American, unlike super bust Yakupov CHL
Burakovsky - NHLer. CHL is Swede

 

[Atas2000]

Since 2011 NHL 1st round picks russian. Heck I will add the 2nd round picks too.



2011
Namestikov - NHLer. CHL
Khokhlachev - Bust. CHL
Kucherov - NHLer. CHL

2012
Galchenyuk - NHLer. CHL
Grigorenko - Bust. CHL
Vasilevsky - NHLer. KHL

2013
Nikuschkin - Big year for him, could bust out. KHL
Zadorov - NHLer. CHL
Burakovsky - NHLer. CHL
Zykov - NHLer. CHL

2014
Goldobin - Just waived today. Heading to bust. CHL
Scherbak - Back in the KHL. CHL
Barbashev- NHLer. CHL
Kamenev - Maybe. KHL
Letunov - Maybe. CHL(USHL but the same for this experiment)

2015
Provorov - NHLer. CHL
Gurianov - Maybe. KHL
Svechnikov - Maybe. CHL
Samsonov - Maybe. KHL
Trenin - Maybe. CHL

2016
Sergachev - NHLer. CHL
Rubstov - Maybe. CHL
Korshkov - Maybe. KHL
Kayumov- Maybe. KHL


What is wrong with that? Again its up to the player. I watched alot of Scherbak in the WHL and he was talented but lazy, just like a lot of players I have watched over the years regardless of where they were born.

LOL the usual stuff like Kucherov - CHL. This is bending it. And your maybes are wishful thinking at best and again deliberate bending at the worst.

And oh, Galchenyuk is a Russian all of a sudden when you need to forge a statistic? Burakovsky? Even better. He literally has not ties to Russia whatsoever.

Get real. Nichushkin will never be a NHLer and it was obvious years ago.

Zykov is a NHLer? The guy has 13 NHL points over three(!) seasons. That is why he is not becoming the NHLer you name him. That is why he is spending most of his time in the AHL. He can't complain about getting chances. He gets them. He is just not a NHLer.

Barbashev has become a 4th liner. A NHLer, I grant you that. Way below projection though.

Kamenev? Same as Zykov. He is getting chances. Nothing so far tells me he can be a NHLer. He is even not that brilliant in the AHL.

Letunov who? The guy is 23 and scoring 0.5 PPG in the league worse than the KHL. Can I use you as source to claim there are 80 or so maybe NHLers in the KHL? Lots of names nobody heard in NA.

I had hopes for Guryanov myself, yet he decided to go to NA early. He will start the season in the AHL... again. He is 22. He would play in a better league by now and maybe... Maybe what?

Scherbak can't be back in the KHL. He never played in the KHL. And that's what went wrong with his development. And oh, his contract was already cut by half in the KHL. The guy has one assist in 9 games. On the same team Taylor Beck has 11pts, Andrighetto has 9. At this point I doubt he can stick in the KHL.

Svechnikov is not even a shadow of his younger brother. And he can't make the mess the Red Wings have become?

Yeah, I give you Samsonov, because he hasn't played a game yet. He is indeed a maybe NHLer for now.

Trenin hasn't even got a tryout. Because he is a maybe NHLer? That's two full seasons in the AHL and nothing suggests he can get out there.

About Rubtsov I've had my share of arguments with Flyers fans who are still hopeful, but I fail to see why. The guy ran away from responsibility and competition. He never was on one of the big KHL teams that would be hard to make for a yougster. He deliberately chose to play against kids to better expose himself and be PPG player. If he becomes a 3C at this point it would be a resounding success. He was once projected to be a 2C in the NHL.

Korshkov is one of those picks that raise eyebrows in Russia at draft day. Picked too high, but that is a completely different discussion about NHL scouting Russians. In his case it was probably size. HE was always a projected maybe bottom 6 player.

Kayumov could not score half the points Kaprizov scored even if we age adjust. Kayumov was under a coach who gives young players a very long leash. Kaprizov was/is on one of the best teams in the league and won a championship being it's leading goal scorer and second in points by one point. Kayumov looks like a career KHLer which is not bad at all, but I doubt he is going to make it in the NHL. Same as Korshkov at draft day.

 

[vorky]

You're failing to look into why players aren't good enough to play. This can be due to a myriad of reasons beyond innate skill level; and why development and development path is so crucial.

And no, your suggestion that every single "failed" Canadian draft pick would have succeeded only if they decided to go to the KHL doesn't mirror Atas2000 point at all.
For the same reasons the CHL ruins most Russians, if a Canadian kid was dropped in the middle of, say, Magnitogorsk at age 15-19, it would also be a disaster for his development.

Exactly that.

Russian players are away from their families at a too young age. That is not good for anybody. And they live in a country (Canada/USA) with a totally different culture. That is wrong.