Development of Russians in CHL v KHL

[WhatWhat]

Rubtsov should be blowing up the MHL at this point. Also 0+0 in KHL.

Kaprisov went to KHL last year (same age as Rubtsov) 4 games 7+3.

Current 2 point leaders doing more than 2 points per game. Rubtsov is 20th best PPG scorer out of MHL players with 10+ games.

-> Player looks like an egg.

For those worried about Rubstov, he sounds like what Gurianov went through last year and maybe coming to the AHL next year will do him some good.

Gurianov was stuck on the 4th line on a bad LADA team despite being a high pick. People were saying he wasn't earning it and I think he thought he wasn't getting a chance.

He came over this year and struggled with 1 point in his first 8 games in the AHL while getting adjusted. Since getting used to the game he has 12 points in his last 15 games and has been one of our top producers while making his way up the lines.

Maybe something similar can happen with Rub

 

[Tripod]

Considering this kid went on the 1st round due to couple good games in one Canada tournament...

Maybe wasting picks on underscouted talent is foolish? Just an idea.

Now go look at the Flyers record of drafting in the 1st round. They rarely miss.

 

[Ingvar]

Well, since this thread came up again I did a write-up on Russians in NHL that played in CHL. This post is suffering from low sample sizes but there's not much I can do about it.

There are 33 Russians in NHL, 11 of them played in CHL. I would group them as:

Stars: Kucherov, Radulov
NHL players: Kulikov, Grigorenko, Namestnikov, Tyutin, Zadorov
Fringe NHL players: Burmistrov, Khudobin, Yakupov
Too young to judge: Provorov (but trends as a star).

2-3 stars out of 11 players who made NHL seems not bad but proportion is higher for non-CHL players.

Here's my short review of each player. When I speak about expectations I mean expectations in Russia at the time they left. Scale of talent is [talented<high-profile<future star]. It may carry my own bias since it's hard to check opinions on players at given period because youth hockey isn't a popular topic in Russia.

Burmistrov: moved to the CHL at the age 18 (draft year). He was regarded as a high-profile prospect (had 1 game in the KHL). Spent 1 year in the OHL, got drafted #8. Underachieved.

Grigorenko: moved to the CHL at the age 17 (draft year). He was regarded as a high-profile prospect. Spent 3 years between the QMJHL/AHL/NHL, got drafted #12 (draft day faller). Underachieved - didn't even become #2 C (low chance he does it in the future).

Khudobin: moved to the CHL at the age 19 (draft+2 year). He was regarded as a talanted prospect before that (had 4 games in the RSL the year before). Spent 1 year the WHL being drafted #206. Underachieved, but goalies are notoriously hard to predict.

Kucherov: moved to the CHL at the age 18 (draft+1 year). He was regarded as a future star (had 26 games in the KHL in 2 seasons before). Spent 1 year in the QMJHL being drafted #58. His parents already moved to New York 2 years before his move to the CHL. Fulfilled expectations.

Kulikov: moved to the CHL at the age 18 (draft year). He was regarded as a talented prospect. Spent 1 year in the QMJHL, got drafted #14. Fulfilled expectations - became a #3 D, #2 if you're being generous.

Namestnikov: moved to the CHL at the age 18 (draft year). He was regarded as a talented prospect (played in the VHL the year before). Spent 2 years in the OHL, got drafted #27. Lived in the USA until he was 8 years old. Fulfilled expectations, possibly overachieved.

Provorov: moved to NA at the age 14 (draft year-3). Can't verify but it seems he was regarded as one of the best prospects in Russia in his birth year. Spent 2 years in the WHL, got drafted #7. He has sky-high expectations right now, seems to fulfil them.

Radulov: moved to the CHL at the age 18 (draft year+1). He was regarded as a high-profile prospect (played in RUS-2 the year before + 1 game in the RSL). Spent 2 years in the QMJHL being drafted #15. Fulfilled expectations, possibly overachieved (depending on how you regard his pre-draft projections and/or his career).

Tyutin: moved to the CHL at the age 18 (draft year+1). He was regarded as a high-profile prospect (played in the RSL the year before). Spent 1 year in the OHL being drafted #40. Returned to Russia for a year after the CHL stint. Fulfilled expectations.

Yakupov: moved to the CHL at the age 17 (draft year-1). He was regarded as a talented prospect, got hyped after the move. Spent 2 years in the OHL, got drafted #1. Underachieved.

Zadorov: moved to the CHL at the age 17 (draft year). He was regarded as a high-profile prospect. Spent 2 years between the OHL/NHL, got drafted #16 (draft day faller). Underachieved - right now he is a #3 D but maybe he can still develop.

Some observations: the only player that obviously and significantly got better by playing in the CHL is Provorov - but he moved to NA 2 years before entering it, it was just a step in progression. The poster boy for it could have been Yakupov or maybe Zadorov - but it seems both failed. It's very probable CHL didn't affect careers or development of Khudobin, Kucherov or Tyutin. Moving to the CHL possibly positively affected Kulikov's career and Namestnikov's and Radulov's development; on the other hand, moving to the CHL possibly negatively affected Burmistrov, Grigorenko, Yakupov and Zadorov - both this statements are equally hard to verify. However, at least moving to the CHL around draft year doesn't seem to bring any advantage except in draft position - which may be not an advantage at all either for career or development.

Next wave of Russian CHL alumni - Galiev, Pedan, Valiev, Goldobin, Scherbak, Khokhlachev, Tolchinskiy, Zykov - doesn't look very inspiring.

Some key players to compare in the future:

2013 draft: Nichushkin (#10, KHL/VHL), Zadorov (#16, OHL since draft year), Buchnevich (#75, MHL/KHL, 8 points in 10 games with NYR)

2014 draft: Scherbak (#26, WHL since draft year), Goldobin (#27, OHL since draft year-1, went to Finland), Kamenev (#45, MHL/KHL, in the AHL since 2015), Sorokin (#78, KHL)

2015 draft: Provorov (#7, WHL, moved to NA at 14), Guryanov (#12, MHL/KHL, in the AHL since 2016), E. Svechnikov (#19, QMJHL since draft year), Samsonov (#22, MHL), Zborovsky (#79, WHL since draft year), Kaprizov (#135, KHL)

2016 draft: Sergachev (#9, OHL since draft year), Rubtsov (#22, MHL U-18 team), Abramov (#65, QMJHL since draft year), Sokolov (#196, OHL since draft year, was seen as possible top-5 pick the year before)

2017 draft: Kostin (MHL, supposed top Russian player in the draft), Popugaev (WHL since draft year-1), Minulin (WHL since draft year-1)

2018 draft: A. Svechnikov (USHL, supposed top Russian player in the draft), Khovanov (MHL, former linemate of Svechnikov), Nizhnikov (drafted #7 in OHL draft (not import!))

Some overagers to check on: Mironov, Golyshev, Paigin, Korshkov - didn't include them in drafts because being overaged means they're supposed to be better scouted.

Some other players in future drafts relevant to the topic, but I'm too lazy to expand because they may not amount to much: Kuznetsov (overager), Chekhovich, Lipanov, Samorukov, Poddubnyi, Gogolev, Zhukov, Smirnov (overager).

 

[Atas2000]

In terms of the "graveyard" comments, what about Ziyat Paigin? What the hell is going on with him over there? Ak Bars Kazan is destroying this prospect of ours. We need to get a plane over there and get him to Canada to play for the Oilers.

Oh yeah! We are desroying your prospect. We even deliberately injured him so you don't get what you expect FOR FREE. What are the Oilers paying OUR school for developing the kid? We owe you zero. You owe us, because we are going to lose a good prospect for free, so keep it civil with accusations.

Btw, he is doing just fine, just getting back on track after a serious injury. Oilers paying his doctor bills?

As for others Provorov has left Russia much earlier than most, so he is basically a NA product hockey wise and has zero to do with the discussion about Russians leavng for the CHL at age 17-19.

All others you mentioned are still prospects in unknown territory. Might go either way for them. So let's judge their development hen they are 25 at least.

 

[snipes]

Oh yeah! We are desroying your prospect. We even deliberately injured him so you don't get what you expect FOR FREE. What are the Oilers paying OUR school for developing the kid? We owe you zero. You owe us, because we are going to lose a good prospect for free, so keep it civil with accusations.

Btw, he is doing just fine, just getting back on track after a serious injury. Oilers paying his doctor bills?

As for others Provorov has left Russia much earlier than most, so he is basically a NA product hockey wise and has zero to do with the discussion about Russians leavng for the CHL at age 17-19.

All others you mentioned are still prospects in unknown territory. Might go either way for them. So let's judge their development hen they are 25 at least.

How's the injury? I heard he got sent down to the VHL. 3 points in 5 games.

I'm more concerned about the Ak Bars Kazan coach, Paigin put up beastly numbers with HK Sochi last year. What's the deal with the Ak Bars coach towards young players?

 

[Zine]

Russian D men develop better in Canada. Sergachev and Provorov are the two best Russian D prospects to come along in years, both spent time in the CHL.

Alexander Alexeyev, Sergei Zborovsky, Artem Minulin, and Dmitriy Zaitsev are all developing into excellent young D men playing on the prairies in Western Canada. You're welcome, I have no doubt you guys will gladly take these D men when they prove to be miles ahead of D men developed in Russia for your National Team in the future.

In terms of the "graveyard" comments, what about Ziyat Paigin? What the hell is going on with him over there? Ak Bars Kazan is destroying this prospect of ours. We need to get a plane over there and get him to Canada to play for the Oilers.

Generally speaking the "Russian graveyard" doesn't apply to defensemen.
For the numerous reasons already listed, I don't think leaving for NA a great choice for defensemen, but it's still better than developing at home (for a myriad of reasons).

 

[Atas2000]

How's the injury? I heard he got sent down to the VHL. 3 points in 5 games.

I'm more concerned about the Ak Bars Kazan coach, Paigin put up beastly numbers with HK Sochi last year. What's the deal with the Ak Bars coach towards young players?

He scored a goal in the KHL a couple of hours ago. He's doing fine.

And he did put up offensve numbers beng a huge defensive liability. And that was exactly how he started this season before the injury. He needs to learn a lot. And the coach wants the young players to develop in the right way. And if he wants to learn to play defence AkBars is the place to be.

 

[Zine]

For those worried about Rubstov, he sounds like what Gurianov went through last year and maybe coming to the AHL next year will do him some good.

Gurianov was stuck on the 4th line on a bad LADA team despite being a high pick. People were saying he wasn't earning it and I think he thought he wasn't getting a chance.

He came over this year and struggled with 1 point in his first 8 games in the AHL while getting adjusted. Since getting used to the game he has 12 points in his last 15 games and has been one of our top producers while making his way up the lines.

Maybe something similar can happen with Rub

Guryanov had every chance with Lada. Lada is his hometown team and a great place for youngsters to prove themselves. Guyanov just sucked. Plain and simple.

However, Lada shouldn't have kept him up though. He should have been sent to the MHL.

 

[Winston Wolf]

Considering this kid went on the 1st round due to couple good games in one Canada tournament...

Maybe wasting picks on underscouted talent is foolish? Just an idea.

The Flyers scouted him all year last year.

“We dug deep here in terms of his character,†Hextall said. “I dug deeper than I’ve ever dug. More research on this kid than I’ve ever done. Really good character and team guy.â€

Rubtsov, who turns 18 on Monday, does not speak English and used Flyers scout Ken Hoodikoff as his interpreter. Hoodikoff spent much time with Rubtsov this past year.

“We had lots of contact, more than any other team,†Rubtsov said. “Not worried I didn’t go higher. I was hoping to be drafted by the Flyers. I like Philadelphia. All year they kept an eye on me and talked to me. They put a big effort in.â€

http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-flyers/flyers-do-their-homework-drug-scandal-trade-down-draft-russia-u-18-c-german-rubtsov

"He's really defensively conscious on the ice. He's responsible, and he plays a good two-way game," said Pryor, who estimates he watched Rubtsov in person about eight times last year. "He has an extremely good work ethic. He's a good character kid, and he's got some offense in his game. He's really well-rounded, which is what made him attractive."

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20160710_A_bright_side_to_delayed_arrival_of_Rubtsov.html

That's the Flyers' head of scouting who watched him in person eight times last year. Ken Hoodikoff, another Flyers' scout was in Russia much of the year watching him, more than any other team's scouts.

So your whole post is BS.

 

[WhatWhat]

Guryanov had every chance with Lada. Lada is his hometown team and a great place for youngsters to prove themselves. Guyanov just sucked. Plain and simple.

However, Lada shouldn't have kept him up though. He should have been sent to the MHL.

Maybe they weren't using him right? I didn't say he wasn't bad, but over that last month since being given a little more ice time he has been one of Texas top producing forwards as a 19 year old who only gets PP time in blowouts.

He may not have used his limited chances well enough but that doesn't chance the fact that he probably still didn't think he was getting enough chances.

 

[Atas2000]

Well, since this thread came up again I did a write-up on Russians in NHL that played in CHL. This post is suffering from low sample sizes but there's not much I can do about it.

There are 33 Russians in NHL, 11 of them played in CHL. I would group them as:

.

Good write up and thanks for the work.

Some thoughts still.

Radulov's generation shouldn't be in this discussion. Those were completely different circumstances for young players.

I think Kulikov is continuously getting overrated. I don't even see him as proper #3. It would be interesting to investigate how Florida managed to grab him and Gudbranson in the first round in consecutive drafts. Their D-scouts really wasted them some high picks.

Kucherov spent only 30 something games in the CHL. Hardly important for his development.

Nichushkin looks like a different player. Amazingly after moving back to Russia.

I still have hopes for Goldobin, but he seems to stuggle with waht is today's NHL - systems.

Kamenev will expectedly become a 3C if he will.

 

[Zine]

Maybe they weren't using him right? I didn't say he wasn't bad, over that last month he has been one of Texas top producing forwards as a 19 year old who only gets PP time in blowouts.

He may not have used his limited chances well enough but that doesn't chance the fact that he probably still didn't think he was getting enough chances.

It was painfully obvious to anybody who watched Guryanov that he wasn't ready for significant KHL minutes. It had nothing to do with him being 'used wrong', or 'not given significant opportunities'.

Regarding the AHL, of course he's doing better than last year. He's an entire year older and more experienced, and he's (imo) playing at a level slightly below the KHL.
You think last-years Guryanov (18yo) was good enough to earn offensive minutes in the AHL? Probably not either.

 

[Tripod]

Good write up and thanks for the work.

Some thoughts still.

Radulov's generation shouldn't be in this discussion. Those were completely different circumstances for young players.

I think Kulikov is continuously getting overrated. I don't even see him as proper #3. It would be interesting to investigate how Florida managed to grab him and Gudbranson in the first round in consecutive drafts. Their D-scouts really wasted them some high picks.

Kucherov spent only 30 something games in the CHL. Hardly important for his development.

Nichushkin looks like a different player. Amazingly after moving back to Russia.

I still have hopes for Goldobin, but he seems to stuggle with waht is today's NHL - systems.

Kamenev will expectedly become a 3C if he will.

Of course Nichushkin would look better, he is a year older and playing in a worse league than the NHL.

As for Rubstov, I have no issue with people saying he should not be gifted KHL minutes. But not playing is not good. And playing against competition you are better than in the MHL isn't ideal either.

I trust Hextall's decision making.

 

[Zine]

Well, since this thread came up again I did a write-up on Russians in NHL that played in CHL. This post is suffering from low sample sizes but there's not much I can do about it.

There are 33 Russians in NHL, 11 of them played in CHL. I would group them as:

Stars: Kucherov, Radulov
NHL players: Kulikov, Grigorenko, Namestnikov, Tyutin, Zadorov
Fringe NHL players: Burmistrov, Khudobin, Yakupov
Too young to judge: Provorov (but trends as a star)..............

....Those are just recent players.

Our guys have been playing in the CHL since the 1990s (tons of players, tons of skilled guys) and I can literally count the success stories on one hand, at least in terms of forwards.

Over the span of like 25 years, apart from Kucherov, Radulov and perhaps Valery Bure, who else lived up to expectations going the CHL route? Saprykin? maybe Namestnikov?

 

[Atas2000]

Of course Nichushkin would look better, he is a year older and playing in a worse league than the NHL.

As for Rubstov, I have no issue with people saying he should not be gifted KHL minutes. But not playing is not good. And playing against competition you are better than in the MHL isn't ideal either.

I trust Hextall's decision making.

Do you know how many players are a year older this season and look just awful compared to the last season? Age has nohing to do with it. Trust and a proper relationship with the coach does have a major influence..

And it has zero to do with the league. I watch the actual player play.

 

[gwh]

The Flyers scouted him all year last year.


http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-flyers/flyers-do-their-homework-drug-scandal-trade-down-draft-russia-u-18-c-german-rubtsov


http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20160710_A_bright_side_to_delayed_arrival_of_Rubtsov.html

That's the Flyers' head of scouting who watched him in person eight times last year. Ken Hoodikoff, another Flyers' scout was in Russia much of the year watching him, more than any other team's scouts.

So your whole post is BS.

Let s see. After summer junior20 tournament, I can't say I agree with your scouts. WJC will tell us.

Also, when did Flyers last pick an Euro that became something? Provorov was in WHL.

Joni Pitkanen in 2002 is the last succesful Euro?
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007439.html

 

[CanuckistanFlyerfan]

Let s see. After summer junior20 tournament, I can't say I agree with your scouts. WJC will tell us.

Also, when did Flyers last pick an Euro that became something? Provorov was in WHL.

Joni Pitkanen in 2002 is the last succesful Euro?
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007439.html

So first you make up something that isn't true, that the Flyers selected Rubtsov after just watching him in ONE tournament. Of course if they did this they would be foolish. They didn't.

Then you come back with you can't agree with the Flyer scouts...cause of ONE tournament you watched.

Then you decide that the WJC, or ONE tournament, will tell us.

How about we judge the guy on his career?

Flyers scouting is doing a great job. The biggest problem the Flyers had was a gm who traded draft picks away.

Now back to your CHL is ruining Russians agenda. Funny how many great Russians developed in Russia weren't so great either.

 

[vorky]

KHL Board of Directors has decided that KHL players can not attend foreign leagues (NHL) training camps anymore. It is so called Nalimov case. There were cases that KHL players attended NHL training camps in past.

 

[gwh]

So first you make up something that isn't true, that the Flyers selected Rubtsov after just watching him in ONE tournament. Of course if they did this they would be foolish. They didn't.

Then you come back with you can't agree with the Flyer scouts...cause of ONE tournament you watched.

Then you decide that the WJC, or ONE tournament, will tell us.

How about we judge the guy on his career?

Flyers scouting is doing a great job. The biggest problem the Flyers had was a gm who traded draft picks away.

Now back to your CHL is ruining Russians agenda. Funny how many great Russians developed in Russia weren't so great either.

Did I touch a nerve?

I dont have anti CHL agenda. Good kids league, nothing wrong with that except the pay "slightly" lower than in the KHL.

Last Euro is Pitkanen 15 years ago, and now suddenly you ll succesfully pick an obscure Russian that is not trending well? Please...

Then you decide that the WJC, or ONE tournament, will tell us.

Apparently you don't watch his games, so one tournament for you.

I ve seen enough. Good kid but star level NHL upside? Not at this point.

 

[Roo Mad Bro]

Did I touch a nerve?

I dont have anti CHL agenda. Good kids league, nothing wrong with that except the pay "slightly" lower than in the KHL.

Last Euro is Pitkanen 15 years ago, and now suddenly you ll succesfully pick an obscure Russian that is not trending well? Please...



Apparently you don't watch his games, so one tournament for you.

I ve seen enough. Good kid but star level NHL upside? Not at this point.

When has anyone said star level upside? Most of us expect his upside to be a 2C who is good defensively.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Good write up and thanks for the work.

Some thoughts still.

Radulov's generation shouldn't be in this discussion. Those were completely different circumstances for young players.

I think Kulikov is continuously getting overrated. I don't even see him as proper #3. It would be interesting to investigate how Florida managed to grab him and Gudbranson in the first round in consecutive drafts. Their D-scouts really wasted them some high picks.

Kucherov spent only 30 something games in the CHL. Hardly important for his development.

Nichushkin looks like a different player. Amazingly after moving back to Russia.

I still have hopes for Goldobin, but he seems to stuggle with waht is today's NHL - systems.

Kamenev will expectedly become a 3C if he will.

Why should Radulov not count? Because it doesn't fit your narrative that every Russian will fail if they go to the CHL?

As for Kulikov, getting a top 4D in the position he was drafted is a great pick and in no way can you say he failed for playing in the CHL.

 

[Tripod]

Did I touch a nerve?

I dont have anti CHL agenda. Good kids league, nothing wrong with that except the pay "slightly" lower than in the KHL.

Last Euro is Pitkanen 15 years ago, and now suddenly you ll succesfully pick an obscure Russian that is not trending well? Please...


Apparently you don't watch his games, so one tournament for you.

I ve seen enough. Good kid but star level NHL upside? Not at this point.

Now let's look how many Euro's the Flyers have picked in the 1st 3 rounds in those 15 years:

Rubstov....should make Russia WJC but wo knows with politics now with him leaving
Sandstrom....3rd rounder Will be Sweden's WJC goalie
Hagg....2nd rounder 3 time WJC player...still developing in AHL
Bertilsson.....bust...3rd rounder
Bodrov.....bust....2nd rounder
Ruzicka...3rd rounder played a handful of games
Pitkanen...1st rounder....injuries derailed good career

That's it. It's not like we are talking about a huge sample size when it comes to the Flyers drafting top end Euro's. And 3 of those guys are still prospects.

So now we are talking about 4 guys. One was a 1st rounder....and was a long term NHLer. God forbid we did not hit on 3 guys who 2 were 3rd rounders and 1 a 2nd rounder.

So please, don't try and make it seem like the Flyers have used a bunch of good picks on Euro's and had nothing to show for it. Anyone who has a clue knows that the Flyers are the best drafting 1st round team in the NHL over the last 15 years. Maybe that's because we have avoided the Euro's. Ever think of that???

And no one thinks Rubstov will be a star. Never have. He would not have lasted until #22 overall if that was the belief. Most Flyers fans want him to be a reliable 2-way #3 C who could eventually take over Couts if Couts leaves in 6 years. So a 2nd line C. Is that not realistic?

 

[vorky]

Sergei Fedorov, GM of CSKA, has said at World Hockey Forum: "Russian players should stay at home until 24-25 years to develop. So players should go to NHL as fully developed players. Just going to NHL to try the luck is not correct attitude. You should go to NHL for certain position in main team"

 

[CanuckistanFlyerfan]

Sergei Fedorov, GM of CSKA, has said at World Hockey Forum: "Russian players should stay at home until 24-25 years to develop. So players should go to NHL as fully developed players. Just going to NHL to try the luck is not correct attitude. You should go to NHL for certain position in main team"

Unless of course, you're Fedorov...then you can come over earlier.

 

[vorky]

Unless of course, you're Fedorov...then you can come over earlier.

you can not compare 90th to today. Russian hockey was one big chaos at the time, not good league in Russia