Development of Russians in CHL v KHL

[Woodhouse]

If moderators allow, I am creating this thread because the discussion about developing of russian players is discussed in various threads. I think special thread is needed.

For those who dont follow russian or KHL hockey: Russian Hockey Federation has just adopted new development programm for russian hockey players. They copied developing system of USSR, Canada, US, Sweden etc. I dont know details, only general things like education of coaches, building new rinks, methodics for developing the players etc. New programm should work since new season.

Tretyak is still president of hockey federation but his guys left organisation and were replaced by new ones who are Rotenbergs guys...

Russian hockey federation wants to hire a swede, GM of Skeleftea AIK.

Mod: FWIW, above (now post #25) is the original OP of this thread, as more of the KHL-CHL hijack from the E.Svechnikov thread was moved into here rather than scrapped completely. Carry on.

Click to read more...

 

[MardyBum]

Yes, his decision cost him his career. He will play hockey for many years to come, but not at the level he should be playing because his development was stalled due to his bad decision.

Why are young russian's so inept at developing anywhere but Russia in your opinion?

What is wrong with the Russian developmental system, or mindset of young Russian players that makes them incapable of doing what other countries can do?

Why can they only thrive at home while other countries can have players thrive in different scenarios?

 

[wings5]

Why are young russian's so inept at developing anywhere but Russia in your opinion?

What is wrong with the Russian developmental system, or mindset of young Russian players that makes them incapable of doing what other countries can do?

Why can they only thrive at home while other countries can have players thrive in different scenarios?

Russia is a lot different than other countries. Russians will not adopt to the Western culture and language as easily as Swedes Finns etc especially at a young age. Furthermore, the brand of hockey they play is very different from the philosophies taught in North America, so when they come they start learning a different way of playing before completing their training in the style they were used to. It's like someone are starting to learn to speak French before they have mastered English, can lead to confusion and someone without a complete mastery of one. Peter goes over the top when he says the career is over but he means their potential could have been much higher had they stayed in their comfortable home setting to train. Yes Grigorenko and Yakupov have made the NHL but they may end up 40 pt max player instead of 70 + and they will not likely live up to the potential they had when younger is what he's trying to get at.

 

[Zine]

Why are young russian's so inept at developing anywhere but Russia in your opinion?

What is wrong with the Russian developmental system, or mindset of young Russian players that makes them incapable of doing what other countries can do?

Why can they only thrive at home while other countries can have players thrive in different scenarios?

It's because Russia is very different than NA and even Western Europe. Not better, not worse...just different.

So let's flip this upside down:
What percentage of North Americans would properly develop if dropped in the middle of, say, Yaroslavl (who has an amazing hockey school) at such a critical age of 15-18?
With having to deal with such an abrupt change in language, life culture, hockey culture, training regiment, training focus, etc., I'd say most North American kids would regress in their overall development relative to those who stayed home in Canada/USA.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Russia is a lot different than other countries. Russians will not adopt to the Western culture and language as easily as Swedes Finns etc especially at a young age. Furthermore, the brand of hockey they play is very different from the philosophies taught in North America, so when they come they start learning a different way of playing before completing their training in the style they were used to. It's like someone are starting to learn to speak French before they have mastered English, can lead to confusion and someone without a complete mastery of one. Peter goes over the top when he says the career is over but he means their potential could have been much higher had they stayed in their comfortable home setting to train. Yes Grigorenko and Yakupov have made the NHL but they may end up 40 pt max player instead of 70 + and they will not likely live up to the potential they had when younger is what he's trying to get at.

There is also nothing that really proves at all that they would be better, or worse, players had they stayed in Russia either.

Maybe they just overall weren't that great of players? There's examples of very skilled Russian youngsters who stayed in Russia and didn't pan out as well.

 

[wings5]

So let's flip this upside down:
What percentage of North Americans would properly develop if dropped in the middle of, say, Yaroslavl (who has an amazing hockey school) at such a critical age of 15-18?
With having to deal with such an abrupt change in language, life culture, hockey culture, training regiment, training focus, etc., I'd say most North American kids would regress in their overall development relative to those who stayed home in Canada/USA.

I sort of agree, I think adjusting to the culture, language, being away from home, being somewhat depressed bc you can't speak to ppl would be the obvious hard parts. But in many circumstances I feel the shift to a more practise heavy development system instead of lots of games would benefit alot of lesser skilled NA kids. Russia continues to focus on skills at this age whereas in the CHL they shift more to system focus. In the CHL , players pretty much develop their skills with their own individual work ethic (off-ice and in summer on ice etc ) and the players who enter the CHL as elite players stay elite IF they continue to train alot. Though I'm not considering growth/muscle development of later blooming players who become notable prospects.

There is also nothing that really proves at all that they would be better, or worse, players had they stayed in Russia either.

Maybe they just overall weren't that great of players? There's examples of very skilled Russian youngsters who stayed in Russia and didn't pan out as well.

While that is true it happens with every nationality, it's better to look at the Russians in the NHL and the past greats and see where they came from. They're pretty much all developed in Russia/Soviet Union.

 

[sqw3r]

There is also nothing that really proves at all that they would be better, or worse, players had they stayed in Russia either.

Maybe they just overall weren't that great of players? There's examples of very skilled Russian youngsters who stayed in Russia and didn't pan out as well.

There is currently only one young russian player who has developed to the level of his talent in CHL - Kucherov. All others underperformed while players who have stayed in Russia till they've finished their development are now among the best (Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Panarin). Surely some of the prospecrs were busts, but look at it this way: 90% of the biggest russian prospects are playing in CHL every year and only one lived up to expectations in Kucherov.
I also think it's too early to judge Svechnikov, two games is not enough and some posters here are overreacting.

I'm just hoping his brother is not going to CHL, he is the biggest russian talent since OV/Malkin and it would be such a shame to hinder his development.

 

[nbwingsfan]

There is currently only one young russian player who has developed to the level of his talent in CHL - Kucherov. All others underperformed while players who have stayed in Russia till they've finished their development are now among the best (Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Panarin). Surely some of the prospecrs were busts, but look at it this way: 90% of the biggest russian prospects are playing in CHL every year and only one lived up to expectations in Kucherov.
I also think it's too early to judge Svechnikov, two games is not enough and some posters here are overreacting.

I'm just hoping his brother is not going to CHL, he is the biggest russian talent since OV/Malkin and it would be such a shame to hinder his development.

There's also Barbashev who is doing very well this season as well. Again, there really isn't a way of telling. Many players fall/climb on draft day and beyong from ALL nationalities, including Canada. Maybe they just weren't as good as they looked pre-draft? I can say first hand that a player like Kabanov was not nearly as good as advertised the second he stepped on the ice for Moncton, regardless of off ice issues.

 

[sqw3r]

There's also Barbashev who is doing very well this season as well. Again, there really isn't a way of telling. Many players fall/climb on draft day and beyong from ALL nationalities, including Canada. Maybe they just weren't as good as they looked pre-draft? I can say first hand that a player like Kabanov was not nearly as good as advertised the second he stepped on the ice for Moncton, regardless of off ice issues.

Canadians here just can't accept that CHL is bad for russians and always take it a a knock on their successfull development system. One last time, out of the biggest russian talents every year at least 80% (i think it's much closer to 90, but doesn't matter, let's say even 50%) are coming to CHL. Out of them all only Kucherov plays on the high level. And to find the next successfull russian player who has gone through canadian juniors you have to go all the way back to Radulov. Do you really think all the talents from Russia were busts and it's just a coincidence that three best young russians currently in NHL have stayed in Russia till they've finished the development? I agree, staying in Russia can hinder the development too (and well, Kuz should've been in NHL two years earlier, there is no real question about it) and surely some of the russians in CHL are just busts. But do you really think there is no correlation?

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

By this logic, shouldn't kids going to other European countries ruin their development? For example, all those Czech prospects from the last few years who went to Sweden and so on. They seem to be doing fine. Or is the Czech Republic different from Russia in some important way?

 

[sqw3r]

By this logic, shouldn't kids going to other European countries ruin their development? For example, all those Czech prospects from the last few years who went to Sweden and so on. They seem to be doing fine. Or is the Czech Republic different from Russia in some important way?

Czech Republic is basically western europe and maybe the most successfull out of the all slav countries, so there is no surprise.

I really think that the biggest problem is two distant systems clashng together in the minds of the young guys. If they were coming to NHL at least at the age of 20, after finishing and fully understanding russian system, i think there would be many more successfull russians in Nhl right now. Yeah, the first year in NHL would be rough (look at Tarasenko), but it's a better way to develop.

 

[Zine]

Canadians here just can't accept that CHL is bad for russians and always take it a a knock on their successfull development system. One last time, out of the biggest russian talents every year at least 80% (i think it's much closer to 90, but doesn't matter, let's say even 50%) are coming to CHL. Out of them all only Kucherov plays on the high level. And to find the next successfull russian player who has gone through canadian juniors you have to go all the way back to Radulov. Do you really think all the talents from Russia were busts and it's just a coincidence that three best young russians currently in NHL have stayed in Russia till they've finished the development? I agree, staying in Russia can hinder the development too (and well, Kuz should've been in NHL two years earlier, there is no real question about it) and surely some of the russians in CHL are just busts. But do you really think there is no correlation?

I wouldn't call Kucherov a product of the CHL. He only played some 30 odd games there. That's hardly enough time to gain benefits or be ruined.

I think the only CHL graduate (at forward) who has reached full potential is Radulov. The other is maybe Valery Bure, but that's like 20+ years ago.
Christ almighty, that's a pitiful track record.

 

[Backami]

There is currently only one young russian player who has developed to the level of his talent in CHL - Kucherov.

Kucherov played just about 30 games in there. So he is actually MHL made product.

 

[Backami]

There's also Barbashev who is doing very well this season as well. Again, there really isn't a way of telling. Many players fall/climb on draft day and beyong from ALL nationalities, including Canada. Maybe they just weren't as good as they looked pre-draft? I can say first hand that a player like Kabanov was not nearly as good as advertised the second he stepped on the ice for Moncton, regardless of off ice issues.

Kabanov was "most mentally" ( wery good english, westminded) prepared russian player who stepped in CHL and he was definitely one of the best player of his age group in whole world. But ... bad attitude on and off the ice ruined his very promising career in NHL.

 

[Peter25]

But they are addressing some core issues in Russian hockey and player development, at least. - What can you do to prevent the kids bolting across the pond then? If they wanna go they go.

Indeed. This is the core problem, that they still want to go after two decades of failed Russian prospects in the CHL. These players have worked hard for their careers and then they just want to throw it all away choosing the "fastest route to the NHL"! This is something very hard to understand. In reality it is the fastest route to the hockey cemetary.

It doesn't bother me that these idiot kids destroy their own careers, but it bothers me as a Russian hockey fan that this ill practice rids Russian hockey of many good players that would otherwise be stars in the NHL or in the KHL. It brings down the level of the Russian national team and the KHL, and it also decreases the number of Russians in the NHL.

What do to then? I have suggested here that the Russian Hockey Federation should make it a lot harder for these kids to move. Create barriers that makes their departure harder. Some suggestions:

1. Make it compulsory for each Russian junior aged 13-14 to sign a 6-7 year contract for his club in Russia. Shorter contracts for junior players should be prohibited. If the kid doesn't want to sign that's fine. He can either quit hockey or move abroad. But he cannot play competitive hockey in Russia anymore. Those who are able to leave at 13-14 can do that, but those who don't are bind to their Russian club until they are at least drafted to the NHL.

2. Ban every Russian player who left to play in the CHL from the national team and from the KHL. This might sound counterproductive because at least some CHL-trained Russians are going to be successful because right now just about every talented kids leaves before he turns 17. But it would force the kids, their agents and their parents to think about the consequences a bit more. If the kid never makes it to the NHL (as is the case for the most) then he can never return to Russia to play hockey. He has to find a job in Sweden, Finland, Switzerland, Germany or somewhere else where the pay is a lot smaller than in Russia.

 

[kp61c]

^^^
good points. i'd ban all our players in the chl from the national team too, especially after creating an u18 team in the mhl. everyone who jumps the pond sabotages the whole idea behind that team.

 

[Peter25]

Sometimes? He's incapable of posting here without mentioning CHL and how it ruins the beautiful little innocent Russian angels.

Peter is a broken record and he derails every thread with this crap. And the guy isn't even Russian.

Actually this is one thing that cannot be discussed enough because it is the number one problem for the Russian development system right now.

And it is not Canada's problem. Nobody is blaming Canada. Of course the Canadian junior leagues want these players because it makes their leagues better and more competitive. It is not Canada's job to develop Russian players. And it is not Canada's fault that these kids regress over there.

This is Russia's problem and Russia has to be the one that fixes it. Both carrot and stick needs to be used to keep these kids in Russia.

Carrot=constant development of Russia's own development system. More focus on scientific training of coaches. Building of ore training facilities. Etc.

Stick=creation barriers for departures that I described in my previous post to this thread.

The current situation is shameful for Russia. A major hockey country, a former hockey superpower, cannot keep it's most talented players in the country until they turn at least 20. And they keep leaving younger and younger.

The current situation is 100% fault of the Russian Hockey Federation and that goofball Vladislav Tretyak (he was a great goalie, but a terrible GM)

 

[Peter25]

^^^
good points. i'd ban all our players in the chl from the national team too, especially after creating an u18 team in the mhl. everyone who jumps the pond sabotages the whole idea behind that team.

True.
And these kids have not even paid for their hockey career. The expenses are 100% covered by their clubs and the towns that they live in. They build the rinks and other training facilities. They hire the coaches that train them. They pay for the expenses of the game trips. They even buy the equipment for these kids.

The kids who make it to the top own a lot to Russia and the Russian team that developed them. This is why it would not be wrong or immoral to demand that the kids stay with these clubs until at least being drafted to the NHL. And this can be done by prohibiting all short contracts for junior players. They could go overseas because the NA junior leagues would have to respect their Russian contracts.

 

[Peter25]

They could go overseas because the NA junior leagues would have to respect their Russian contracts.

That should read "They could NOT go overseas because the NA junior leagues would have to respect their Russian contracts."

 

[Kshahdoo]

There is currently only one young russian player who has developed to the level of his talent in CHL - Kucherov. All others underperformed while players who have stayed in Russia till they've finished their development are now among the best (Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Panarin). Surely some of the prospecrs were busts, but look at it this way: 90% of the biggest russian prospects are playing in CHL every year and only one lived up to expectations in Kucherov.
I also think it's too early to judge Svechnikov, two games is not enough and some posters here are overreacting.

I'm just hoping his brother is not going to CHL, he is the biggest russian talent since OV/Malkin and it would be such a shame to hinder his development.

Kuznetsov, Tarasenko and, I think, Panarin are just way more talented than any Russian prospect in the CHL. That's why they stayed in Russia: they could get pro contracts at very young age. I bet any Russian prospect would prefer good money to some clouded perspectives abroad. They just aren't talented enough to get pro contracts at age 18, so they leave Russia.

 

[vorky]

I dont want to be offtopic here...but....

Russian Hockey Federation has just adopted new development programm for russian hockey players. They copied developing system of USSR, Canada, US, Sweden etc. I dont know details, only general things like education of coaches, building new rinks, methodics for developing the players etc. New programm should work since new season.

Tretyak is still president of hockey federation but his guys left organisation and were replaced by new ones who are Rotenbergs guys...

Russian hockey federation wants to hire a swede, GM of Skeleftea AIK, one of best in country

 

[Peter25]

So here is my idea how the contract situation should be handled for Russian juniors.

- Once the kid reaches the age of 14 he has to sign a contract with his current Russian club that expires when he turns 20.

- All the contracts include a clause that if a player is drafted in the first two rounds in the NHL Entry Draft he can sign a contract with the NHL team that drafted him and the contract with his Russian team is terminated.

- Otherwise the contract expires when the player turns 20.

- The Russian club cannot trade the player to another Russian club against the will of the player until he turns 18.

 

[vorky]

Kuznetsov, Tarasenko and, I think, Panarin are just way more talented than any Russian prospect in the CHL. That's why they stayed in Russia: they could get pro contracts at very young age. I bet any Russian prospect would prefer good money to some clouded perspectives abroad. They just aren't talented enough to get pro contracts at age 18, so they leave Russia.

that is not true. This KHL season is a record for number of U20 for last 5 seasons.

As I know CSKA offered pro contract to Grigorenko, Zadorov, Traktor offered a pro contract to Abramov, Magnitka offered pro contract to Sokolov etc

E: Lets start new thread not to be offtopic here.

 

[Peter25]

Kuznetsov, Tarasenko and, I think, Panarin are just way more talented than any Russian prospect in the CHL.

Nope. When younger Yakupov and Grigorenko were thought to be more talented than Tarasenko and Kuznetsov. And Panarin was not even drafted to the NHL.

 

[vorky]

If moderators allow, I am creating this thread because the discussion about developing of russian players is discussed in various threads. I think special thread is needed.

For those who dont follow russian or KHL hockey: Russian Hockey Federation has just adopted new development programm for russian hockey players. They copied developing system of USSR, Canada, US, Sweden etc. I dont know details, only general things like education of coaches, building new rinks, methodics for developing the players etc. New programm should work since new season.

Tretyak is still president of hockey federation but his guys left organisation and were replaced by new ones who are Rotenbergs guys...

Russian hockey federation wants to hire a swede, GM of Skeleftea AIK.