GDT: Detroit Red Wings vs. Montreal Canadiens | 10/15/2018 | 7:30PM ET|FSD

[Shaman464]

On Mantha; He's not a normal 20th overall. His issue was never talent, but it was his compete level. His talent was definitely top ten for the year he was drafted. Hes definitely not pulling his weight for a first line player. If hes not scoring 30+ theres no reason for him to not be forechecking or defending.

On AA; I agree that he's worked hard at times, but he still falls into his old habits too often. First, and this is a sin for a center, when in his own zone he is very often waiting at the blue line for an outlet pass. Second, he tries too hard to do everything by himself. Look at the OT he played, he held on to the puck forever just to get a low percentage shot. He's done that a lot this season, instead of passing or keeping it simple, he tries to be cute and gets burned. Third, he still does take shifts off, and those are becoming more the majority than the minority as the season goes along. He looked more involved especially the first couple games, but the last 2 he's been looking much less like he cares. It might be a symptom of being snakebitten, it might be that he's doing what he always does, which is play well 3 games take off 7.

 

[Flowah]

To me a bust is someone who is appreciably worse than his draft position's average. So if the average is .5PPG and the player is .47PPG. So what? But .35 PPG? Yeah. Bust.

I think it necessarily has to work that way otherwise a lot of top5 picks who never pan out as elite but still go on to be journeymen players wouldn't be busts. But you should absolutely expect a forward picked at #3 to be elite and if they aren't... that's a bust, yo.

 

[Hammettf2b]

On Mantha; He's not a normal 20th overall. His issue was never talent, but it was his compete level. His talent was definitely top ten for the year he was drafted. Hes definitely not pulling his weight for a first line player. If hes not scoring 30+ theres no reason for him to not be forechecking or defending.

On AA; I agree that he's worked hard at times, but he still falls into his old habits too often. First, and this is a sin for a center, when in his own zone he is very often waiting at the blue line for an outlet pass. Second, he tries too hard to do everything by himself. Look at the OT he played, he held on to the puck forever just to get a low percentage shot. He's done that a lot this season, instead of passing or keeping it simple, he tries to be cute and gets burned. Third, he still does take shifts off, and those are becoming more the majority than the minority as the season goes along. He looked more involved especially the first couple games, but the last 2 he's been looking much less like he cares. It might be a symptom of being snakebitten, it might be that he's doing what he always does, which is play well 3 games take off 7.

So basically...

 

[ShanahanMan]

Can’t see AA or Mantha being on the roster 2 years from now. As someone perfectly put it, they’re “filler” players and nothing more.

I honestly think most of this roster needs to be blown up, even some of the young guys.

 

[Shaman464]

So basically...

Some of us anyway. Some people had Mantha as a perennial 40 goal scorer and AA as a 30 goal guy every year.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Is Travis Zajac a bust? Also drafted at #20 overall, scored 20+ goals all of 2 times, and broke 50 points all of 2 times.

I would say for Mantha to be a bust he would have to be out of the league by now.

If Mantha can be a staple on the Red Wings and spend over 800 games on the roster then possibly not.

But watching Mantha in juniors there was a lot of hype. He has size, he has the scoring touch. He has a lot of tools. There are expectations there and it would really suck if he couldn't meet them at all and is off the team a couple years later.

 

[Mister Ed]

Mantha has 4 goals in 10 games against the Habs, he really likes playing in Montreal so look for him to have a great game.

3-2 Red Wings win.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I don't disagree with you about Blash being a terrible coach, because he is. To say that AA shows he cares game in game out, and every single shift is wrong though. He floats for entire games. Darren Helm is a player that shows he cares, and works his *** off every shift. Helm's work ethic will never be questioned in my books. He cares, he plays with heart every single shift. The same can't be said for AA.

AA has 77 points in 177 games, maybe, just maybe he is also just a "filler" player himself. Again, as of last season I was a huge AA fan, and gave the guy tons of credit, and defended him. I'm done defending a guy with a career points per game average of 0.43, who never shows any improvement whatsoever.

It's just a strange time to stop supporting AA because so far this season he has actually shown improvement.

And I can't agree with you on Helm after watching him do stupid things like ice the puck one stride short of center ice. I miss the tenacious Helm of old. I don't know where that guy went.

 

[TCNorthstars]

If Mantha can be a staple on the Red Wings and spend over 800 games on the roster then possibly not.

But watching Mantha in juniors there was a lot of hype. He has size, he has the scoring touch. He has a lot of tools. There are expectations there and it would really suck if he couldn't meet them at all and is off the team a couple years later.

So you are on the fence on whether Zajac is a bust?

How would it be Mantha's fault he didn't meet your unreal expectations. There was a reason he got passed on a bunch despite all the hype.

 

[newfy]

I'm not saying it is going to kill him, I don't see it with only five games played.

I said it earlier. This gives them more time to evaluate him, more time with the team practicing and things like that. If he just played 9 games all straight in a row it would be a tougher decision. The wings have also been pretty bad so let him sit a game or two see if they get any better and throw him back in when some guys are clicking more.

Hes been worse than I expected but hes shown flashes so more time to evaluate is better anyways

 

[turkleton85]

different topic...i am really happy Frk is in the lineup. I've always liked his tenacity, and he was skating surprisingly good this preseason. He's a guy i'm rooting for tonight, hopefully he can convince this coach to keep him in the lineup.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

So you are on the fence on whether Zajac is a bust?

Please indicate where I said that. I don't call Zajac a bust based on who he was as a player and what he was to the Devils. Mantha having two 50 point seasons and 20 goal seasons in his career doesn't just automatically put him at the same "effectiveness" as Zajac.

And this entire discussion is surrounded by a word I used in quotation marks relative to what the team needs and what the players are anticipated to contribute to a potential Stanley Cup roster.

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

To me a bust is someone who is appreciably worse than his draft position's average. So if the average is .5PPG and the player is .47PPG. So what? But .35 PPG? Yeah. Bust.

I think it necessarily has to work that way otherwise a lot of top5 picks who never pan out as elite but still go on to be journeymen players wouldn't be busts. But you should absolutely expect a forward picked at #3 to be elite and if they aren't... that's a bust, yo.

To me a bust is someone who is appreciably worse than his draft position's average. So if the average is .5PPG and the player is .47PPG. So what? But .35 PPG? Yeah. Bust.

I think it necessarily has to work that way otherwise a lot of top5 picks who never pan out as elite but still go on to be journeymen players wouldn't be busts. But you should absolutely expect a forward picked at #3 to be elite and if they aren't... that's a bust, yo.

Mantha is sitting at 0.4 ppg in the 5 games so far this year. His career PPG is 0.58 and only 2 forwards (Rucinsky and Frolov) drafted 20th after 1985 (not fair to include ones drafted before that because they got to shoot at goalies with much smaller and heavier equipment and the league averaged nearly 50% more goals per game before Bettman) have scored at a better clip.
Bust.

 

[Shaman464]

Mantha is sitting at 0.4 ppg in the 5 games so far this year. His career PPG is 0.58 and only 2 forwards (Rucinsky and Frolov) drafted 20th after 1985 (not fair to include ones drafted before that because they got to shoot at goalies with much smaller and heavier equipment and the league averaged nearly 50% more goals per game before Bettman) have scored at a better clip.
Bust.

Looking only at one draft position is disingenuous. I'd look at +/- 5 draft positions.

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

Looking only at one draft position is disingenuous. I'd look at +/- 5 draft positions.

Go ahead. I have no doubt that you will find that Mantha scores at a much higher clip than most forwards drafted 15-25 since 85.

 

[The Flying Octopus]

I know this goes against the grain, will make some people irate, and some will just say there is no thought to it, BUT, have you all started to think some of our best players, IE Mantha, simply is not putting forth the effort because he/team doesn't want to play for Blashill? Now before the Blashill extremists come thrashing down, its a simple thought/opinion, and a good one for that matter. Blashill has had a few years as Assistant coach, few successful years as an AHL coach and is now in his third season behind the bench for the Wings. He has been given poo poo for a roster, which some will say is not his fault, but when does he start becoming the focal point of this teams failures? It's not as if he has no expereince and is still learning how to coach. He has had plenty of time to put forth a worthy system for these players to play and adapt to, and quite frankly, its not working. So when does he finally start to get some heat on him, not only from media, but from people here, before you start questioning guys like Mantha? Can Mantha be better, heck yes, but it starts w the fire the coach instills and there is no fire.

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

I know this goes against the grain, will make some people irate, and some will just say there is no thought to it, BUT, have you all started to think some of our best players, IE Mantha, simply is not putting forth the effort because he/team doesn't want to play for Blashill? Now before the Blashill extremists come thrashing down, its a simple thought/opinion, and a good one for that matter. Blashill has had a few years as Assistant coach, few successful years as an AHL coach and is now in his third season behind the bench for the Wings. He has been given poo poo for a roster, which some will say is not his fault, but when does he start becoming the focal point of this teams failures?

Many of the players like Mantha have never had another coach at the professional level in NA.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

For Blashill to be a legitimate excuse for Mantha and others not working hard the locker room would have to be dysfunctional because of the coaching. I can't assume anything other than Blashill isn't very good at his job.

 

[Hammettf2b]

The way I see it is Mantha is more of a disappointment through fans eyes based on hype. Not a bust though.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Please indicate where I said that. I don't call Zajac a bust based on who he was as a player and what he was to the Devils. Mantha having two 50 point seasons and 20 goal seasons in his career doesn't just automatically put him at the same "effectiveness" as Zajac.

And this entire discussion is surrounded by a word I used in quotation marks relative to what the team needs and what the players are anticipated to contribute to a potential Stanley Cup roster.

I mean, you said "If Mantha can be a staple on the Red Wings and spend over 800 games on the roster then possibly not." Possibly not a bust. What you described is exactly what Zajac is to the Devils.

Are you holding Anthony Mantha to a higher standard than Travis Zajac?

Thus far, IMO, Mantha has exceeded his draft position. In no way would he ever be possibly be considered a bust from this point on. He will carve out a nice career with many 20g seasons.

Hopefully he pots a couple tonight!

 

[Hammettf2b]

For Blashill to be a legitimate excuse for Mantha and others not working hard the locker room would have to be dysfunctional because of the coaching. I can't assume anything other than Blashill isn't very good at his job.

Doesn't Blashill basically preach the same things Babcock does as far as work ethic is concerned? I don't think coaching contributes to Mantha's "lack of effort". I just think that's Mantha's game.

 

[TCNorthstars]

I know this goes against the grain, will make some people irate, and some will just say there is no thought to it, BUT, have you all started to think some of our best players, IE Mantha, simply is not putting forth the effort because he/team doesn't want to play for Blashill? Now before the Blashill extremists come thrashing down, its a simple thought/opinion, and a good one for that matter. Blashill has had a few years as Assistant coach, few successful years as an AHL coach and is now in his third season behind the bench for the Wings. He has been given poo poo for a roster, which some will say is not his fault, but when does he start becoming the focal point of this teams failures? It's not as if he has no expereince and is still learning how to coach. He has had plenty of time to put forth a worthy system for these players to play and adapt to, and quite frankly, its not working. So when does he finally start to get some heat on him, not only from media, but from people here, before you start questioning guys like Mantha? Can Mantha be better, heck yes, but it starts w the fire the coach instills and there is no fire.

It is possible, but it would be very disgraceful for them to not put in a full effort because they don't like their coach. Not to mention stupid because it will cost them money in the long run.

 

[Hammettf2b]

It is possible, but it would be very disgraceful for them to not put in a full effort because they don't like their coach. Not to mention stupid because it will cost them money in the long run.

Ya, I don't buy it either. When you have a guy like Larkin who most of the time gives it his all, you just don't "not put in the effort to despite the coach". I would think they would want to play hard for their teammates who do put in the effort. It's just Mantha's game thats all. I doubt much will change that.

 

[Filppula]

I know Ras has looked a bit out of his depth, and he’s a wing and Nielson is a C, but if anyone should sit it’s him. Nielson flat out stinks. But you can’t sit your associate captain...

He gets paid big bucks to be useless and insipid. Can’t stand him.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Some of us anyway. Some people had Mantha as a perennial 40 goal scorer and AA as a 30 goal guy every year.

Who had them being that?