Prospect Info: Detroit Red Wings Prospect Thread 2017-18 I

[Winger98]

Other than Vilardi, I'm not sure we can look at the guys drafted after Rasmussen and comfortably say he was a bad pick. I mean, I had a personal preference for Liljegren, but I can't honestly say he'd done enough before the draft to make me say he should have been a clear favorite. All of these guys had their own pluses and minuses. While he wouldn't have been my choice, I think it's a bit unfair to be overly hard on the pick and not waiting to see what we get at this point - especially since the kid came to camp and did pretty darn well.

 

[izlez]

You wanted to use a top ten pick on a guy because he's big and hard to move? Yikes.

I feel like such a schmuck, begging the Wings to draft for puck skill and hockey sense. I need to get with it.

You are a schmuck for this opinion.

If he turns into a hall of famer, why the heck do you care if he doesn't do it with fancy stick-handling?

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

You are a schmuck for this opinion.

If he turns into a hall of famer, why the heck do you care if he doesn't do it with fancy stick-handling and passing and all that extraneous stuff you don't care about?

Because when Zetterberg declines (which is right now), somebody has to do the fancy stick-handling and passing and extraneous stuff you don't care about? I don't see another Zetterberg or Datsyuk just lined up.

 

[Winger98]

You are a schmuck for this opinion.

If he turns into a hall of famer, why the heck do you care if he doesn't do it with fancy stick-handling?

How many HoFers lack puck skill and hockey sense? If Rasmussen hits it out of the park it's going to be because he either really maximized what he clearly has, or he developed some skills people didn't see in him leading up to the draft. And to be a HoFer it would be the latter. My biggest hope is that the guy becomes another Bobby Holik. Shut down D, ~60 points a year (or whatever a current equivalent would be to what Holik put up), high end 2nd line center. Hoping the floor is a Gaustad Deluxe.

And is calling someone a schmuck the best way we can find to make our point?

 

[izlez]

How many HoFers lack puck skill and hockey sense? If Rasmussen hits it out of the park it's going to be because he either really maximized what he clearly has, or he developed some skills people didn't see in him leading up to the draft. And to be a HoFer it would be the latter. My biggest hope is that the guy becomes another Bobby Holik. Shut down D, ~60 points a year (or whatever a current equivalent would be to what Holik put up), high end 2nd line center. Hoping the floor is a Gaustad Deluxe.

And is calling someone a schmuck the best way we can find to make our point?

Relax, I called him a schmuck because he called himself a schmuck in the post I quoted.

but yeah, if you want to criticize the scouts for being wrong on their assessment, fine. But the consensus around here seems to be "I don't care if he goes to the hall of fame because he was the best net front guy in the history of the NHL, I want fancy stick handling because that's how IIII say you win games"

 

[Frk It]

Relax, I called him a schmuck because he called himself a schmuck in the post I quoted.

but yeah, if you want to criticize the scouts for being wrong on their assessment, fine. But the consensus around here seems to be "I don't care if he goes to the hall of fame because he was the best net front guy in the history of the NHL, I want fancy stick handling because that's how IIII say you win games"

Fans of the team that watched Datsyuk and Zetterberg for the last 10 years want players with puck skills and playmaking ability. This is surprising to you?

 

[lomekian]

Rasmussen has a way better defenseman on his team, in Juuso Valimaki. Frankly, Suzuki is better at elevating those around him at this point. Which is part of why undrafted Sean Durzi has those gaudy numbers. WHL used to be a tougher or lower scoring league, but it’s actually about on par with the scoring in the OHL now. Also not sure “better team” checks out either. Tri City has 26 pts in 19 games whereas Owen Sound has 22 pts in 18 games, and none of Suzuki’s teammates are anything special (at all).

That’s not to say Suzuki is perfect. He doesn’t have the best skating for a guy under 6 feet tall, and he may not be able to stick at center. But he does have considerable upside. There’s probably certain elements of Rasmussen’s game that project better. Probably goal scoring and defensive play. I’m more concerned with seeing him develop as a playmaker and being more versatile than necessarily just stat watching, but yeah, it would be nice if he was blowing it up in the score sheet.

Fair enough- better team wasn't accurate. Valimaki is a real talent for sure. But they are better then Tri City offensively. Rasmussen's team are better defensively for sure, but don't have a dominant line or many real goal scorers. Sure, Suzuki is drivung his line and team more, but this is no surprise to anyone.

Interesting that WHL is so much up in scoring of late. It still seems to produce better defence men though.

Agree that it's a step up in our boy's playmaking and even strength points that are the priority. We've seen some improvements in both this year, but nothing dramatic - but he's already proven he can be effective as a positionally solid and excellent net front guy at the pro level. So his floor appears to a solid 3rd line PP specialist.

He looks most like a potential 2nd line Centre at this stage, but his ceiling appears to be a 1st lime center who will need creative and quick wingers.

Crucially though, the only guy we passed over in favour of him that seeemed a shock has been injured all season. Of course for all but the truly elite players it's between 18-22 development that tends to define success.

 

[Redder Winger]

Relax, I called him a schmuck because he called himself a schmuck in the post I quoted.

but yeah, if you want to criticize the scouts for being wrong on their assessment, fine. But the consensus around here seems to be "I don't care if he goes to the hall of fame because he was the best net front guy in the history of the NHL, I want fancy stick handling because that's how IIII say you win games"

I don't criticize the scouts.
I criticize the Wings draft philosophy.

They had their highest and most draft picks in years and they wasted it on "grit."
And then say they're going to "draft for skill" next year?

That's plain stupid.

There were a lot of guys I wanted over Rasmussen.

Vilardi
Robert Thomas.
Martin Necas.
Timothy Liljegren.
Eric Brannstrom.
Klim Kostin.

I think the Blues knocked it out of the park with Thomas and Kostin at 20 and 31
Thomas, after a very slow start, now has 15G and 10A in 25 points. He's small, but he's a great defensive center, great on faceoffs, skates very well, has some of that Datsyuk skill and Datsyuk steal ability.

Liljegren had looks like an Erik Karlsson clone. I wonder if that case of Mono that made Liljegren struggle all year just helped the Leafs luck into a franchise defenseman.

I was at the World Junior Showcase and Babcock was smiling and laughing every time Liljegren skated the puck up the ice.

Meanwhile, Gustav Lindstrom and Kasper Kotkansalo looked mediocre as mediocre gets. Neither guy showed much in the way of skating, defense, playmaking or puck moving.

I truly can't understand the Red Wings' last draft.

I think Rasmussen makes it at some level in the NHL.
But I honestly felt like the Wings completely wasted their best drafting opportunity in 20+ years.

 

[newfy]

Fans of the team that watched Datsyuk and Zetterberg for the last 10 years want players with puck skills and playmaking ability. This is surprising to you?

Puck skills and play making werent the only things that made the wings great. Datsyuk and Zetterbergs two way play was a huge factor. You've cried about this pick forever its getting really annoying to listen to to be honest. As much as Datsyuk and Zetterberg did, a healthy Franzen (a big bodied goal scorer like Rasmussen) was a huge factor in the runs to the finals. Mule might've won the Smythe in 09 had the wings won, but does that matter since he wasnt a fancy play maker to you? Its not like Rasmussen has no puck skills or play making ability. He was drafted right where he was rated to go by pretty much every major scouting source, because of his total package of skills, size, grit and two way play. Anyone who watched the super series aganist Russia saw that Rasmussen was one of the best players out there. You got your picks that were pure skill and fancy stick handling in Tatar and Nyquist, they disappeared come playoff time. Maybe a team built around guys like Rasmussen and Mantha will be different.

Did you whine like this after the Larkin pick was compared to Helm? How many times have you actually watched Rasmussen play?

I don't criticize the scouts.
I criticize the Wings draft philosophy.

They had their highest and most draft picks in years and they wasted it on "grit."
And then say they're going to "draft for skill" next year?

That's plain stupid.

There were a lot of guys I wanted over Rasmussen.

Vilardi
Robert Thomas.
Martin Necas.
Timothy Liljegren.
Eric Brannstrom.
Klim Kostin.

You very well might have said you want all these guys over Rasmussen at draft time but I doubt it. More likely theyre havig good years now and hindsight is 20/20. I mean Klostin went 31st and Thomas was 20th. If you wanted Thomas over him I would like to see your posts that said so because I dont remmeber anyone saying that. Some people wanted Klostin because hes the fancy Russian that people always get hard over every draft. I rememeber everyone in here wanting Kirill Kabanov in the first round of his draft year but usually these small skilled guys turn into a Teemu Pulkkinen and not a Datsyuk.

Rasmussen looks good this year and was drafted right where he was projected. I cant believe the whining that goes on about a 6'5, skilled forward that knows how to score goals. Wings fans have wanted a player like that for years

 

[Redder Winger]

Other than Vilardi, I'm not sure we can look at the guys drafted after Rasmussen and comfortably say he was a bad pick. I mean, I had a personal preference for Liljegren, but I can't honestly say he'd done enough before the draft to make me say he should have been a clear favorite. All of these guys had their own pluses and minuses. While he wouldn't have been my choice, I think it's a bit unfair to be overly hard on the pick and not waiting to see what we get at this point - especially since the kid came to camp and did pretty darn well.

I think you look at the kind of players we need.

We need a puck moving, potential #1 D. That's your liljegren.

We need that two-way center who can control play, control tempo and build your possession. To me, that's your Robert Thomas or Vilardi pick.
We need that guy who wins the faceoffs. Who can hold the puck that extra second and dish to Mantha, or Svechnikov, or Athanasiou, or Larkin (if he doesn't stay at center).

Rasmussen was better than I thought he'd be in the pre-season. But I'm still not sold on him as anything more than a bigger Shawn Matthias.

 

[Frk It]

Puck skills and play making werent the only things that made the wings great. Datsyuk and Zetterbergs two way play was a huge factor. You've cried about this pick forever its getting really annoying to listen to to be honest. As much as Datsyuk and Zetterberg did, a healthy Franzen (a big bodied goal scorer like Rasmussen) was a huge factor in the runs to the finals. Mule might've won the Smythe in 09 had the wings won, but does that matter since he wasnt a fancy play maker to you? Its not like Rasmussen has no puck skills or play making ability. He was drafted right where he was rated to go by pretty much every major scouting source, because of his total package of skills, size, grit and two way play. Anyone who watched the super series aganist Russia saw that Rasmussen was one of the best players out there. You got your picks that were pure skill and fancy stick handling in Tatar and Nyquist, they disappeared come playoff time. Maybe a team built around guys like Rasmussen and Mantha will be different.

Did you whine like this after the Larkin pick was compared to Helm? How many times have you actually watched Rasmussen play?

Weird that i didn’t even say Rasmussen’s name in the post you quoted and complimented him in the post before that, but if you wanna flame go right ahead.

 

[Redder Winger]

Puck skills and play making werent the only things that made the wings great. Datsyuk and Zetterbergs two way play was a huge factor. You've cried about this pick forever its getting really annoying to listen to to be honest. As much as Datsyuk and Zetterberg did, a healthy Franzen (a big bodied goal scorer like Rasmussen) was a huge factor in the runs to the finals. Mule might've won the Smythe in 09 had the wings won, but does that matter since he wasnt a fancy play maker to you? Its not like Rasmussen has no puck skills or play making ability. He was drafted right where he was rated to go by pretty much every major scouting source, because of his total package of skills, size, grit and two way play. Anyone who watched the super series aganist Russia saw that Rasmussen was one of the best players out there. You got your picks that were pure skill and fancy stick handling in Tatar and Nyquist, they disappeared come playoff time. Maybe a team built around guys like Rasmussen and Mantha will be different.

Did you whine like this after the Larkin pick was compared to Helm? How many times have you actually watched Rasmussen play?



You very well might have said you want all these guys over Rasmussen at draft time but I doubt it. More likely theyre havig good years now and hindsight is 20/20. I mean Klostin went 31st and Thomas was 20th. If you wanted Thomas over him I would like to see your posts that said so because I dont remmeber anyone saying that. Some people wanted Klostin because hes the fancy Russian that people always get hard over every draft. I rememeber everyone in here wanting Kirill Kabanov in the first round of his draft year but usually these small skilled guys turn into a Teemu Pulkkinen and not a Datsyuk.

Rasmussen looks good this year and was drafted right where he was projected. I cant believe the whining that goes on about a 6'5, skilled forward that knows how to score goals. Wings fans have wanted a player like that for years

I wasn't a member here.
But I have posts on Reddit saying as much about Vilardi, Thomas, Necas, Kostin, Liljegren, Brannstrom (and a few guys who went higher than nine but who i thought could drop).
Rasmussen was literally not in my top 20, for many of the reasons listed on the prospects board.

It's sad that a fan can't have an open and honest conversation where he states opinion without being told he's whining."
You should learn to be more civil.

As for my concern with the overall tenor of the draft, check out Tyler Wright's own words.

"I'm actually thinking about what we have to draft next year. We're going to get a little bit more of an emphasis on higher-end skill, maybe get a little bit riskier in the forward position," Wright said.

Given the sheer number of picks the Wings had, last year would have been a great year to risk on higher-end skill.
Given the lack of high end talent the Wings have vs the number of average NHL players we have, this should be our top focus right now.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

Suzuki last season: 1,48 PPG
This season: 1,72 PPG
Difference: +16%

Rasmussen last season: 1.1 PPG
This season: 1.21 PPG
Difference: +10%

Yeah that additional 6% is really a major jump.

It’s a 60% improvement relative to Rasmussen, so yeah, it kind of is, especially given the difference in totals in general. It’s harder to improve bettet numbers. That’s how math works

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

You wanted to use a top ten pick on a guy because he's big and hard to move? Yikes.

I feel like such a schmuck, begging the Wings to draft for puck skill and hockey sense. I need to get with it.

Wings essentially got a potential Nick Bjugstad when they had the opportunity for a potential 1B center.

Very different players, with Suzuki being a smaller skilled guy on a much more attacking team that scores more goals and has better linemates (including an undrafted d-man who is currently on 30 points in 18 games with a much better +/-). Rasmussen, as well as playing with injuries is on a worse team, with worse linemates in a tougher league, and has a totally different physiology and trajectory. Skilled big guys take longer to develop than smaller skill guys or just big grinders.

Would I have been happy had we drafted Suzuki? Reasonably, as I'm reasonably happy with Rasmussen. The only guys I was really really excited about were already off the board- in almost my order of preference - so there were about 6 players that I had equal in my assessment. Rasmussen though is a safer pick, as pre-season alone proved the suspicion this he's a guy who's game will translate to the NHL. If he can stay injury free the rest of the season and keep improving his 2 way play as much as seems to be the case so far this year (much better +/- than last year on a mediocre team), then he might make the jump in 10 months to the big league.

Is the WHL really tougher? More defensively oriented, sure, but iirc OHL players statistically pan out more. I think Ras will be an NHLer, probably even a “good” one, but in rebuilds you don’t go safe, you go high talent potential. Same issue I had with the Sheahan pick when Kuznetsov was on the table. I would bet a significant amount of money at least 2 of Necas, Suzuki, Vilardi, and Liligrjen will be considered a tier above Rasmussen in 5-7 years. All but Vilardi certainly have been ao far. Wing went safe when they should have taken the risk for top end talent

When a bunch of bandwagonners who had never seen the kid play who jumped on a few well known media level scouts opinions of him and decided he was unworthy, everyone should really learn to take a step back and decide for themselves.

The Red Wings have actual scouts who a paid to look at all these players and decide on the best available player, not rely on the the internet group mutual *********ion think tank.

Yeah, because being paid certainly makes them infallible, especially in a sport that’s rife with nepotism in management. You realize paid scouts picked Boston’s picks over Barzal a few years back? Or even the Wings own (at the time) when they picked Sheahan over Kuznetsov despite most fans on forums like this and reddit having Kuznetsov ranked higher? Abdelkader over Statsny? Shawn Matthias and Cory Emmerton, over Lucic and Ferraro over ROR? All were picked very soon after the Wings picked and were ranked similary

I’m not trying to single out the Wings scouts, this can be applied to pretty much every team, but that’s the point. Scouts make mistakes every single draft and always will

 

[newfy]

I wasn't a member here.
But I have posts on Reddit saying as much about Vilardi, Thomas, Necas, Kostin, Liljegren, Brannstrom (and a few guys who went higher than nine but who i thought could drop).
Rasmussen was literally not in my top 20, for many of the reasons listed on the prospects board.

It's sad that a fan can't have an open and honest conversation where he states opinion without being told he's whining."
You should learn to be more civil.

Given the sheer number of picks the Wings had, last year would have been a great year to risk on higher-end skill.
Given the lack of high end talent the Wings have vs the number of average NHL players we have, this should be our top focus right now.

So he wasnt in your top 20, thats fine. But he was in almost everyone elses top 10. Its not uncivil of me to say quit whining about a pick when the guy has played 15 games post draft and youre calling it a wasted pick based on grit. He was Detroits best player in the preseason, is a real contender to make team Canada and his scoring has gone up this season. The big knock on him of all the people who didnt want him to be picked was that he didnt have even strength assists, well look at all the highlights of him making slick passes already this season. Hes improving on his biggest knock against him, yet youre going to come in here and already declare it a wasted pick because "grit". Any scouting publication and hockey analyst talked about how last years draft didnt have high end skill, even loaded drafts are not a guarantee at nine to get a highly skilled player.

Some of those guys you listed could very well become better players than Rasmussen butto call him a wasted pick because the wings were drafting grit is pretty ridiculous. The guy was on pace for 50 goals in his draft year, have you seen the list of players that have done that? Its the same as people who read a couple scout comments and hate the Larkin pick, or think that Bertuzzi was a seventh round draft talent at best. Let him develop, maybe hell surprise you before declaring it a wasted pick

 

[Pavels Dog]

It’s a 60% improvement relative to Rasmussen, so yeah, it kind of is, especially given the difference in totals in general. It’s harder to improve bettet numbers. That’s how math works

I mean we're still so early on that a multi-point game by Ras basically puts him into the same % as Suzuki. But I don't know that Ras is someone that you should just stat-watch. Clearly some of his biggest strengths are in his two-way play, faceoffs and net-front play. He seems to be improving his playmaking and ES-point production this year which were two of the major issues people had with him last season. He already had an impressive training camp showing that he should have little trouble transitioning to the pros. Basically, the fact a small-ish winger like Suzuki is scoring at a higher rate in juniors is not very meaningful.

 

[izlez]

Putting big bodies in front of the net to tip pucks and get rebounds aren't useful. I can't think of any possible example where that was extremely effective.





....And of course, that is Rasmussen's ONLY ability whatsoever

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Putting big bodies in front of the net to tip pucks and get rebounds aren't useful. I can't think of any possible example where that was extremely effective.





....And of course, that is Rasmussen's ONLY ability whatsoever

At the NHL level, I think so. Unless you count defensive play. His hands are okay, his shot is okay, his passing is okay-ish. His skating is pretty good. And he's really good in front of the net. Guys with that skillset become grinders and roleplayers at the NHL level.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

It’s a 60% improvement relative to Rasmussen, so yeah, it kind of is, especially given the difference in totals in general. It’s harder to improve bettet numbers. That’s how math works

Suzuki won't play center in the NHL, not with his skating at his size. He will get pushed to the wing as soon as he graduates from juniors. People consistently confuse junior hockey for professional hockey around here. I understand the appeal of the player but also can't fault the organization for passing on him.

Don't feel bad though, Vilardi won't play center in the NHL either.

 

[Ezekial]

If you wanted Thomas over him I would like to see your posts that said so because I dont remmeber anyone saying that.

I agree with most everything you're posting in regards to Rasmussen, he's playing well and Redder is just being his usual over-critical self.
BUT

If we were drafting where we have been the last few years I'd love a Ras pick, but at 9 no way. Also if we were drafting at that spot and Robert Thomas(another guy I like but not at 9)and Ras were there I got RT 100/100 (I think someone is gonna be thoroughly happy when they pick him). I do like Rasmussen though

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I would still rather have Valimaki. That dude is a beast, and exactly what the Wings need to round out their d-group.

 

[WesNichols14]

I didn't want Rasmussen, but at this point I'm ok with the pick. He has played well in the WHL this year, answered the even strength issues question (for me at least) , and had maybe the best preseason he could have had. He might not be exactly what we needed at that time, but I do like the idea of drafting a huge center in a draft everyone considered weaker if it opens up the possibility of drafting a smaller skill guy in the better drafts.

Another thought I was having to day was, after seeing Mantha come into his own this year in front of the net, I see a real upside to having a net front tandem of Mantha, and Rasmussen. It also allows for us to take Mantha out of that role, if we want to change things up.


Question: I have only been able to see a few games (mostly partial games) of Rasmussen this year in the WHL, is he still centering a line, or is he on the wing?

Lastly, can we as group on this board please stop, complaining about him being picked. Or at least dedicate its own thread to it. talking about how he is never going to be as good as A, B, or C, and how its ruining our franchise is not adding anything to a thread about the development of our prospects.

 

[Redder Winger]

So he wasnt in your top 20, thats fine. But he was in almost everyone elses top 10. Its not uncivil of me to say quit whining about a pick when the guy has played 15 games post draft and youre calling it a wasted pick based on grit. He was Detroits best player in the preseason, is a real contender to make team Canada and his scoring has gone up this season. The big knock on him of all the people who didnt want him to be picked was that he didnt have even strength assists, well look at all the highlights of him making slick passes already this season. Hes improving on his biggest knock against him, yet youre going to come in here and already declare it a wasted pick because "grit". Any scouting publication and hockey analyst talked about how last years draft didnt have high end skill, even loaded drafts are not a guarantee at nine to get a highly skilled player.

Some of those guys you listed could very well become better players than Rasmussen butto call him a wasted pick because the wings were drafting grit is pretty ridiculous. The guy was on pace for 50 goals in his draft year, have you seen the list of players that have done that? Its the same as people who read a couple scout comments and hate the Larkin pick, or think that Bertuzzi was a seventh round draft talent at best. Let him develop, maybe hell surprise you before declaring it a wasted pick

Look Newf, we all have opinions. That's what happens on a message board.

We all have draft day opinions. At least those of us who watch the draft.

I'm willing to change my mind on prospects. I've done it before.

But my initial thoughts are what they are. And Wright's boneheaded comments about drafting skill next year do nothing to make me think I was wrong.

My viewing of prospects like Rasmussen, Liljegren, Kotkansalo, Lindstrom, etc, at the WJ Showcase also give me reason to think the wings didn't get much skill this year.

 

[Redder Winger]

I agree with most everything you're posting in regards to Rasmussen, he's playing well and Redder is just being his usual over-critical self.
BUT

Yeah, I had Thomas way higher than any of the mocks and scouting services.
But he really turned it up as the season went on.
He has jawdropping patience with the puck. He's got a shot to be that puck-possession, two-way center that you win with.

Between Thomas and Kostin, the Blues cleaned up in the first round last year.

 

[Claypool]

Lastly, can we as group on this board please stop, complaining about him being picked. Or at least dedicate its own thread to it. talking about how he is never going to be as good as A, B, or C, and how its ruining our franchise is not adding anything to a thread about the development of our prospects.

Are you new here? People complain about every Red Wings draft pick. Go back if you can and find the Larkin draft pick thread. Hell, there are people here who still would rather have Chychrun instead of Cholowski and Hronek. Everyone hated when Holland traded down and got Mantha and Bertuzzi, too.