Prospect Info: Detroit Red Wings Prospect Thread 2017-18 I

[Redder Winger]

Pronman on Lindstrom and Givani Smith
Pronman: Around the farms -- All the latest on prospects...
"Detroit Red Wings: When Detroit picked Gustav Lindstrom 38th overall last summer, I somewhat saw the argument. He’s a good puck-moving defenseman who had a dominant U19 tournament in February and showed flashes of a top prospect. However, this season he hasn’t been all that impressive and, while he shows some offense in his game, I’m skeptical if he can justify his draft slot. I also caught Givani Smith, the 46th-overall pick in 2016, in his first game of the season. He wasn’t great, but some rust is to be expected. He has nice hands for a guy his size, but he’s not a lock to be a scorer as a pro, especially without addition to his speed."

I seriously doubt that Lindstrom or Kotkansalo are NHL material. They were very, very pedestrian at the World Junior Showcase.
Smith has some size, but I don't see much hockey sense and skating. Maybe he could develop into a physical netfront guy.

 

[lomekian]

Pronman on Lindstrom and Givani Smith
Pronman: Around the farms -- All the latest on prospects...
"Detroit Red Wings: When Detroit picked Gustav Lindstrom 38th overall last summer, I somewhat saw the argument. He’s a good puck-moving defenseman who had a dominant U19 tournament in February and showed flashes of a top prospect. However, this season he hasn’t been all that impressive and, while he shows some offense in his game, I’m skeptical if he can justify his draft slot. I also caught Givani Smith, the 46th-overall pick in 2016, in his first game of the season. He wasn’t great, but some rust is to be expected. He has nice hands for a guy his size, but he’s not a lock to be a scorer as a pro, especially without addition to his speed."

I seriously doubt that Lindstrom or Kotkansalo are NHL material. They were very, very pedestrian at the World Junior Showcase.
Smith has some size, but I don't see much hockey sense and skating. Maybe he could develop into a physical netfront guy.

Lindstrom was a bit of a reach, and not the pick I would have made, but what little I've seen of him makes me think he's got a chance. As a third round pick I would have been very content, but there were several I would have taken above him.

Givani Smith just hasn't improved his skating for whatever reason, and the odd injury has hampered him. The advantage he has is that he is big and tough as hell and can score in tight. That in itself gives him a chance as a bottom six guy, but he'll not be much more than a 4th liner without improving his skating.

Kotkansalo? I know next to nothing about him...the one time I saw him he looked like a bottom pair d-man who can be solid and skates pretty well.

I didn't love any of the three picks at the time, but I can see the logic. They seem like low ceiling high floor in the pros kind of guys, who have a chance even if they don't kick on, but only as depth guys. But then I think everyone, including the organsiation, believes that this coming draft needs to be taking risks on skill.

Mind you with the cost of our bottom 6 forwards and bottom 3 d, I guess trying to replace one or two of them internally is no bad idea!

 

[Redder Winger]

Lindstrom was a bit of a reach, and not the pick I would have made, but what little I've seen of him makes me think he's got a chance. As a third round pick I would have been very content, but there were several I would have taken above him.

Givani Smith just hasn't improved his skating for whatever reason, and the odd injury has hampered him. The advantage he has is that he is big and tough as hell and can score in tight. That in itself gives him a chance as a bottom six guy, but he'll not be much more than a 4th liner without improving his skating.

Kotkansalo? I know next to nothing about him...the one time I saw him he looked like a bottom pair d-man who can be solid and skates pretty well.

I didn't love any of the three picks at the time, but I can see the logic. They seem like low ceiling high floor in the pros kind of guys, who have a chance even if they don't kick on, but only as depth guys. But then I think everyone, including the organsiation, believes that this coming draft needs to be taking risks on skill.

Mind you with the cost of our bottom 6 forwards and bottom 3 d, I guess trying to replace one or two of them internally is no bad idea!

In this league you can get cheap depth every year in UFA.
There's always some veteran looking to extend his career and re-establish himself, or someone else's prospect looking for that second chance.
Every draft should be about taking risks on skill
Every year

 

[lomekian]

In this league you can get cheap depth every year in UFA.
There's always some veteran looking to extend his career and re-establish himself, or someone else's prospect looking for that second chance.
Every draft should be about taking risks on skill
Every year

I certainly feel there should be a greater emphasis than some of our recent drafts, but you have to draft a variety...guys like Helm/Abby aren't cornerstones but you don't get guys of that ability in UFA at the price we had them for their RFA years.

There always has to be a balance or you end up with even more overpriced 3rd liners etc than we've had in recent years.

Let's hope the organisation is true to their word of targeting skill more in the coming draft...our prospect pool is a little heavy in other qualities at the mo.

 

[Christien]

Anyone know why Rasmussen didnt play last night?

 

[Redder Winger]

I certainly feel there should be a greater emphasis than some of our recent drafts, but you have to draft a variety...guys like Helm/Abby aren't cornerstones but you don't get guys of that ability in UFA at the price we had them for their RFA years.

There always has to be a balance or you end up with even more overpriced 3rd liners etc than we've had in recent years.

Let's hope the organisation is true to their word of targeting skill more in the coming draft...our prospect pool is a little heavy in other qualities at the mo.

You can get Helms and Abdelakders cheap.
Take a look at Jason Chimera. The guy has never made more than $2M a year. How is Darren Helm any better than he is?

Anyway, I'm not saying never draft a speedy guy like Helm. Helm was drafted in round 4. That's fine.
Even with Abdelkader, there was hope he'd be a top 6er when drafted.
So it isn't like they didn't consider skill with him. He just never really developed in that department.

What I don't like is that the NHL is a speed and skill game and we went with size and not much skill.
I can't think of one pick we made in last year's draft that says "speed and skill."

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You can get Helms and Abdelakders cheap.
Take a look at Jason Chimera. The guy has never made more than $2M a year. How is Darren Helm any better than he is?

Anyway, I'm not saying never draft a speedy guy like Helm. Helm was drafted in round 4. That's fine.
Even with Abdelkader, there was hope he'd be a top 6er when drafted.
So it isn't like they didn't consider skill with him. He just never really developed in that department.

What I don't like is that the NHL is a speed and skill game and we went with size and not much skill.
I can't think of one pick we made in last year's draft that says "speed and skill."

Abdelkader plays in the top 6.... He has made international teams. For pete's sake people can hate his contract, but the actual comments around here on what kind of player he actually is and his reputation leaguewide are often hilariously bad.

Reality is if you see the team only as you want to it likely impacts your view on what they are drafting.... My word.

Also just because Rasmussen is big doesn't mean he doesn't have tons of speed and skill, because he does.

I would hate to break this to you but both Helm and Abdelkader have blown by the production or expectations of their drafting slot.

 

[Redder Winger]

Abdelkader plays in the top 6.... He has made international teams. For pete's sake people can hate his contract, but the actual comments around here on what kind of player he actually is and his reputation leaguewide are often hilariously bad.

Reality is if you see the team only as you want to it likely impacts your view on what they are drafting.... My word.

Also just because Rasmussen is big doesn't mean he doesn't have tons of speed and skill, because he does.

I would hate to break this to you but both Helm and Abdelkader have blown by the production or expectations of their drafting slot.

It seems like you didn't really get the point.
Go over last year's draft and tell me who they drafted with speed and skill. Rasmussen? Meh. That's a stretch, given what was available. But beyond him? Nobody.

That he plays in the top six is a failure of this coach and his previous coach.
If you really think he's a legit top 6 forward, you wouldn't hate his contract.

Who cares if Abby/Helm are better than their draft slots. That's water under the bridge.

The point is that Babcock and Blashill over employed them. And then Holland overpaid/overextended.

As for Rasmussen - in terms of speed/skill, he's not that great at 9 overall.

By the way;
Among players drafted 42nd overall,
Abdelkader is 5th all time in games. He's 5th in goals and will probably end up 2nd. He's fifth in points and will end up somewhere between 2nd and 5th.

Similarly, among players drafted 132nd overall, Darren Helm is:
5th in games played. If he stays reasonably healthy, he could end up at number one.
His next goal will make him #1 overall among all players drafted 132nd, passing Bates Battaglia.
He's in third in points with 179 - 19 behind Battaglia.
The Wings also drafted Kyle Quincey at 132nd.

You'd think that Helm being #1 in goals and being close to being #1 in points means that draft gems Datsyuk and Zetterberg are at the top of their draft position.

But Datsyuk is miles behind Lucky Luc Robitaille and Zetterberg is behind Dave Taylor.

 

[Ezekial]

Rasmussen is a much better skater than Vilardi.

 

[Redder Winger]

Cholo scored tonight

 

[Redder Winger]

Rasmussen is a much better skater than Vilardi.

Not much better at all.
And Vilardi is far more skilled.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Not much better at all.
And Vilardi is far more skilled.

Actually it is a lot better than Vilardi's skating. He has a better first step, better lateral movement and a higher top gear.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Also just because Rasmussen is big doesn't mean he doesn't have tons of speed and skill, because he does.

Depends on what you mean by 'skill', I guess. If we're talking about puck skills, I don't think he's very skilled at all. He can protect the puck pretty well because of his reach, but he's not exactly a dangler.

He doesn't have tons of speed, either. He's a good skater for his size. He'll be NHL average. He's not going to be a burner.

 

[Claypool]

Depends on what you mean by 'skill', I guess. If we're talking about puck skills, I don't think he's very skilled at all. He can protect the puck pretty well because of his reach, but he's not exactly a dangler.

He doesn't have tons of speed, either. He's a good skater for his size. He'll be NHL average. He's not going to be a burner.

Curious to know how many games you've watched of him.

 

[Ezekial]

Not much better at all.

No. This just isn't true, at all. You're so willing to cloud your own judgement on players to confirm everything about players you like/dislike.
Vilardi's skating is his biggest question mark as a prospect, now he's coming back from a back injury that has sidelined him for months. It isn't a question with Rasmussen, he is a good skater.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Curious to know how many games you've watched of him.

Several? He's no Gabe Vilardi with the puck, that's for sure. I think he's got an underrated wrist shot that he doesn't use nearly often enough, and I like his upside as a two-way center. But to say he has the same skillset as a flashy offensive guy is just nuts. That's not his strength, that's not how he plays, that's not even how he seems to think the game. He's not a natural dangler and he's not a guy where playmaking comes naturally. The Ryan Getzlaf comparison is pants-on-head crazy.

 

[Redder Winger]

No. This just isn't true, at all. You're so willing to cloud your own judgement on players to confirm everything about players you like/dislike.
Vilardi's skating is his biggest question mark as a prospect, now he's coming back from a back injury that has sidelined him for months. It isn't a question with Rasmussen, he is a good skater.

Vilardi's skating is fine. Concerns about it were overblown.
I watched him play three games in the Memorial Cup and never once was his skating an issue. Even though he was playing with a hip/back issue

Mckeen's on Vilardi:
"Summary: Vilardi could be taken top five for his skating ability alone. He is unbelievable when he moves down the ice and it is incredible to see him adjust his speed. He uses his smarts to help him figure out situations and how the puck will be played. I do somewhat question his compete level because against good teams he will put 100% into them, but against bad teams he will disappear at times when his coach wants him to play. He will dominate for Windsor next year given a full year of health."

 

[Redder Winger]

Actually it is a lot better than Vilardi's skating. He has a better first step, better lateral movement and a higher top gear.

Actually it isn't.
His first step and lateral movement are not better.
He might have a better top gear. But Vilardi is better at changing speeds to open lanes and make plays. He's more agile and better at getting in and out of traffic.

 

[Ezekial]

K you're the smartest.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Actually it isn't.
His first step and lateral movement are not better.
He might have a better top gear. But Vilardi is better at changing speeds to open lanes and make plays. He's more agile and better at getting in and out of traffic.

That is not what I have seen and that isn't what the combine suggested. Which by the way is where Rasmussen really solidified his top 10 pick, he tested incredibly well in the agility stuff especially for a big man.

I get liking Vilardi's vision and puck skills more, but the guy doesn't do anything skating wise to that level. He was the worst skater drafted in the first round in my opinion. Now can he grind out a top notch level with the pace evolution I am not sure, but it is a real concern and now he has a serious core issue. I don't even think the Wings evaluated him as a center because his skating is so bad. This is why I was primary upset they passed over Necas and not Vilardi. The Wings saw a lot of him with him being in Windsor. I have liked him as a player but he is counter to the direction of the game evolution right now. He can either leverage that successfully because of his vision and hands or he will be a very mediocre third liner. Guys that cannot skate get into trouble in this league no matter how smart.

I wish him luck with the Kings, but I am a believer in why Vilardi feel down the board, I don't think he has near the potential a lot of people do unless he can get a Gary Roberts miracle in his skating or something. You're honestly the first person I have come across that isn't worried about this. This is a knock on Vilardi like it is on Axel Holmstrom (a lot less talented) for instance in that it is literally the first thing most people bring up.

 

[Redder Winger]

That is not what I have seen and that isn't what the combine suggested. Which by the way is where Rasmussen really solidified his top 10 pick, he tested incredibly well in the agility stuff especially for a big man.

I get liking Vilardi's vision and puck skills more, but the guy doesn't do anything skating wise to that level. He was the worst skater drafted in the first round in my opinion. Now can he grind out a top notch level with the pace evolution I am not sure, but it is a real concern and now he has a serious core issue. I don't even think the Wings evaluated him as a center because his skating is so bad. This is why I was primary upset they passed over Necas and not Vilardi. The Wings saw a lot of him with him being in Windsor. I have liked him as a player but he is counter to the direction of the game evolution right now. He can either leverage that successfully because of his vision and hands or he will be a very mediocre third liner. Guys that cannot skate get into trouble in this league no matter how smart.

I wish him luck with the Kings, but I am a believer in why Vilardi feel down the board, I don't think he has near the potential a lot of people do unless he can get a Gary Roberts miracle in his skating or something. You're honestly the first person I have come across that isn't worried about this. This is a knock on Vilardi like it is on Axel Holmstrom (a lot less talented) for instance in that it is literally the first thing most people bring up.

I read all the same things about Vilardi early in the season and I didn't want him.
But I saw him twice at the WFCU and then I watched him on streams of the Memorial Cup.
He was a very good skater. Shift after shift he outplayed and often outskated Debrincat - a small guy who is an allegedly great skater.
He can skate with or without the puck on the rush. He can cycle with speed. He knows how to accelerate or slow down to create lanes.
I just posted the quote from McKeen's.
I'm not the only one who thinks concerns about his skating were overblown.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I read all the same things about Vilardi early in the season and I didn't want him.
But I saw him twice at the WFCU and then I watched him on streams of the Memorial Cup.
He was a very good skater. Shift after shift he outplayed and often outskated Debrincat - a small guy who is an allegedly great skater.
He can skate with or without the puck on the rush. He can cycle with speed. He knows how to accelerate or slow down to create lanes.
I just posted the quote from McKeen's.
I'm not the only one who thinks concerns about his skating were overblown.

My understanding is that Vilardi had a serious knee injury the year before his draft, so for most of the year he was still getting his skating legs back. It would explain why some people thought he looked slow as molasses, while others thought he skated perfectly well. Different points in his recovery.

 

[Marky9er]

Concerns about Vilardi were overblown but concerns about Rasmussen were not? Double standard.

The way the draft/lottery played out was unfortunate. I sympathize with fans who see us pass on these guys who were ranked high throughout the year. Chychrun, Liljegren, and Vilardi were all names that we were led to believe unattainable only to watch them passed up. Perhaps next time we don't drop twice, or even we may win the damn thing.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Concerns about Vilardi were overblown but concerns about Rasmussen were not? Double standard.

You're acting as though we should consider both cases without evidence. It was unreasonable to be concerned with Vilardi's skating because he had been a good skater before, and he was injured during his draft year in a way that would impair his skating. But Rasmussen wasn't a big producer the year before his draft, either. And now he's not a big producer the year after the draft, but somehow we talk about him like he is. 87th in scoring amongst skaters, lest we forget. 38th in points per game. Those are absolutely awful numbers for a top 10 pick.

I don't see how the cases are similar. One guy is good at something but got hurt and looked worse. The other guy wasn't great at something, got hurt, and now still isn't great at it. That's not a double standard.

 

[Redder Winger]

Concerns about Vilardi were overblown but concerns about Rasmussen were not? Double standard.

The way the draft/lottery played out was unfortunate. I sympathize with fans who see us pass on these guys who were ranked high throughout the year. Chychrun, Liljegren, and Vilardi were all names that we were led to believe unattainable only to watch them passed up. Perhaps next time we don't drop twice, or even we may win the damn thing.

Where did I say I had concerns about Rasmussen's skating?
My concern with Rasmussen is that he lacks dynamic skill.
I feel like we drafted Riley Sheahan deluxe. A guy who is big and should play in the NHL, but not the kind of talent you want from your first top 10 pick in the NHL.

I watched Rasmussen, Kotkansalo, Lindstrom (as well as Dahlin and a whole host of recently drafted and not-yet drafted prospects).
As I watched guys who I wanted in the draft (Vilardi was not there) like Liljegren and Farrance (92nd to Nashville), and I watched our guys, I couldn't believe our picks. Our guys weren't even close.
I looked over and saw Mike Babcock smiling ear to ear as Liljegren did his best Erik Karlsson impression.

I seriously don't understand last year's draft at all. And I don't think Tyler Wright has done very well explaining what the hell it was all about.

All that said - Rasmussen impressed me in the pre-season wearing the Winged Wheel. And I hope as many of these picks make it as possible.