Screw tertiary. We need quaternary scoring. If weise isn't putting up ppg, blow this team up! FIRE AV!
Derek Roy: The one where we talk about players who aren't Derek Roy
- Thread starter Angry Little Elf
- Start date
Screw tertiary. We need quaternary scoring. If weise isn't putting up ppg, blow this team up! FIRE AV!
No, I'm talking about secondary scoring. Primarily, we rely on the twins, Burrows, Kesler and Edler to provide our offence. The next group of players provide secondary scoring... the rest are just trying not to get scored on. I don't think anyone refers to secondary scoring as coming directly from the second line... do they?
Fat Tony
Fire Benning
- Nov 28, 2011
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You've implicitly added Roy to the list of primary scorers with your previous post. It's spilling over into 2 lines. How many primary scorers does this team have?
Not enough?
I don't care to argue about it. I'm not referring to lines at all when I talk primary and secondary scoring... I don't think anyone else is either.
Pip
Registered User
Roy, Raymond, Hansen Higgins, Bieksa and Garrison provide secondary offense. Secondary scoring imo is scoring that doesn't come from your top players which is your top line plus maybe a couple players. I don't think our secondary scoring is bad tbh, I think it's quite good
It can be good. If you saddle Higgins and Hansen/Kassian with Lapierre/Schroeder/Ebbet... not so much.
Pip
Registered User
what teams have more? Chicago? Pittsburgh? Past that I don't see any teams with more "primary scorers"
Pip
Registered User
Any team is forced to downgrade when they run into injuries, when healthy we have Raymond, Kassian, Hansen and Higgins as our wingers for our second and third line. On par with the elite teams imo.
Yes, the best teams have more. That's what we should be shooting for.
I like our winger depth. I'm not sure you're even reading what I'm writing.
Fat Tony
Fire Benning
- Nov 28, 2011
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Boston, Anaheim, LA. That's if that broad definition of "primary scorers" is used.
Pip
Registered User
I am, you were against putting Roy on the second line because it would ruin our secondary scoring. I would argue that our wingers could carry a line with Ebbett/Schroeder as the centre so we could have a better 1-2 punch.
So Boston has Bergeron, Marchand, Lucic Jagr, Seguin, Horton and Krejci scoring at least half a point per game. We have the Sedins, Kesler, Roy, Hansen, Burrows, Raymond, and Hamhuis doing the same. Neither team has anyone at point per game although the Sedins are basically there.
I don't know where to draw the line between primary and secondary. I picked Boston at random, but I don't think we can have a broad definition with other teams, but not for our own team to include guys like Hansen and Roy.
Ebbett and Schroeder have both had opportunities in the regular season to contribute, neither has done so for more than a game or two at a time. I fail to see how that's going to turn around in the playoffs.
Also, I didn't say it would ruin secondary scoring, I said it ruins the chance of the third line to contribute to it. The difference between Higgins/Roy/Kassian and Higgins/plug/Kassian is huge. Huge.
Roy/Kesler/Hansen is better than Raymond/Kesler/Hansen but the difference isn't nearly as big.
One thing that should have been made clear this year is that a line with no centre has no chance.
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Fat Tony
Fire Benning
- Nov 28, 2011
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I think of them in units. I don't have primary scorers spread out over different units.I have a narrow list of primary scorers on the Canucks. The Sedins. Burrows is secondary. He complements the Sedins very well but he's secondary. Everyone else is secondary also.
My definition, of course.
Pip
Registered User
What I would argue that for the majority of the season, when Schroeder and Ebbett were given chances with Raymond and Hansen, they were not the third line playing easy minutes, they were playing tough match ups on the second line. That is a tough position to be in for a rookie/AHLer and I would like to see how the would fare against easier matchups. Third line centres don't often provide much offense league wide, but I feel as though they could contribute if given the chance.
Ok, I misunderstood you there, what I took from your quote was that we would see a big drop in secondary scoring if we moved Roy off of the third line. While our third line would undoubtedly see a lack of production, I would argue that the boost that our second line sees would make up for it. I think our wingers are good enough to carry a newer/weaker centre on the third line if that means we can have a much better second line.
For cup winners they often do. Kelly, Bolland, Staal, Hudler and Pahlsson all put up .5ppg or close to it on their Stanley cup runs.
Pip
Registered User
Ok, that's fine and by that definition...
Boston has- Marchand and Bergeron? Jagr is there too, but none are at point per game and these two are the closest.
Chicago has- Kane and Toews
Anaheim has-Getzlaf and Perry
LA has- Koptiar, then a 4 way tie for 29 pts in 40 games.
Pittsburgh has- Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz (in terms of production), Letang, and arguably Neal. There is a reason they are favored to take it
I am not saying we are as good as these teams, I just don't get how they (aside from the Pens) are much better. IMO our problem is on defense, not up front.
Pip
Registered User
-Stoll put up 5 points in 20 games last year for the Kings
-Kelly put up good numbers in the POs but had 28 in the regular season. In that same playoff though, Lucic only scored 12 points, so it seems as there is a trade off.
-Bolland, well I got nothing
that team was just ****ing dominant. Happens when you have your best players on elcs, we don't have that luxury. Him playing with Versteeg and Ladd probably helped though, and he is now their second line centre I believe. -J Staal had 9 pts in 24 games in their cup run.
What I am trying to say is that you don't necessarily need a high scoring third line centre to be successful, if you make up for it with an awesome second line and very good winger depth. Our biggest problem is inconsistency on the backend and if that doesn't fix itself we arent going anywhere imo. I prefer having Roy up with Kesler, but am ok if we decide to go with a three line system.
If we separate Roy and Kesler, that would mean we should have to split up the ES-minutes among those two, which could be 12-13 minutes each if split evenly. Put them together, and they could be out for 15 minutes a piece on ES, while the third line gets 10 maybe.
Spreading out the offense sounds good in theory, but all you're doing is cannibalizing your best offensive players' ability to produce efficiently just so some lesser-skilled players can produce a little more than usual.
It's like the idea that even a 4th liner can produce with the Sedins. While true that you're increasing the effectiveness of that 4th liner, do we really benefit by giving as much ES-time as opposed to a better offensive player? Here, do we benefit more with Roy or Raymond playing 15 ES minutes a game?
This is why having 3 lines that can score is so important. The playoffs are a small sample size, anyone can go cold for a series or 10 games. It happens all the time. Put three lines that can score on the ice every night and you give yourself more opportunities.
Why wouldn't you give them both 15 and take the ice time away from the 4th line? Lapierre is actually pretty good on the wing, we can use him there instead of Kassian when we're up or he falls asleep.
Jack Tripper
Vey Falls Down
not sure i liked roy and kesler playing the entire game together tonight if it means that we have to rely on a plug like andrew ebbett as a 3c...it's a good tactic when the canucks shorten the bench and need a goal but it really dilutes any effectiveness from the third line, especially when guys like raymond and kassian are more than capable 3rd line wingers with a competent center
hopefully things get more balanced when higgins returns...however there's inevitably an injury every playoff series and i wonder if, in that situation where canucks are missing a top-9 forward, vigneault will continue to foist roy, a creative east-west player, onto two north-south players in kesler and hansen
hopefully things get more balanced when higgins returns...however there's inevitably an injury every playoff series and i wonder if, in that situation where canucks are missing a top-9 forward, vigneault will continue to foist roy, a creative east-west player, onto two north-south players in kesler and hansen
Yeah I think there are definitely teams in this conference that are three lines deep and we have to be able to match up against them.
Maybe we can stack our top six with our four best offensive players and then try a third line like Burrow-Lapierre-Hansen or Higgins-Lapierre-Hansen to mop up the rest of the tough minutes.
But if you've got Raymond-Ebbett-Kassian and Sestito-Lapierre-Wiese I think you're probably going to lose the bottom six matchup against teams like Los Angeles, St. Louis, maybe Chicago, and on any given night you've no guarantee you won't lose that matchup against most other playoff teams in the West.
This is pure spitballing but maybe something like this could work:
Daniel-Henrik-Burrows
Roy-Kesler-Kassian
Higgins-Lapierre-Hansen
Raymond-Ebbett-Wiese
That fourth line is a mess but Raymond can play up the lineup and we got through the 2011 playoffs with guys like Glass and Oreskovich playing 6-7 minutes a game so I don't see why Wiese can't do the same.
Otherwise I'd be trying to find sets of wingers that work with Roy and Kesler separated, as being able to roll three lines is going to be an absolute necessity come playoff time.
Maybe we can stack our top six with our four best offensive players and then try a third line like Burrow-Lapierre-Hansen or Higgins-Lapierre-Hansen to mop up the rest of the tough minutes.
But if you've got Raymond-Ebbett-Kassian and Sestito-Lapierre-Wiese I think you're probably going to lose the bottom six matchup against teams like Los Angeles, St. Louis, maybe Chicago, and on any given night you've no guarantee you won't lose that matchup against most other playoff teams in the West.
This is pure spitballing but maybe something like this could work:
Daniel-Henrik-Burrows
Roy-Kesler-Kassian
Higgins-Lapierre-Hansen
Raymond-Ebbett-Wiese
That fourth line is a mess but Raymond can play up the lineup and we got through the 2011 playoffs with guys like Glass and Oreskovich playing 6-7 minutes a game so I don't see why Wiese can't do the same.
Otherwise I'd be trying to find sets of wingers that work with Roy and Kesler separated, as being able to roll three lines is going to be an absolute necessity come playoff time.
Because it becomes the same argument. The numbers of minutes I was using was purely arbitrary. If both get 15 playing on different lines, we could play both on the same line to get 17 or 18 then.
Either Schroder orLapierre are passable for the third line in the playoffs, imo. But you know what I think is more important than having a good 3rd line? Having a great 2nd line, and that is what we could get with Kesler and Roy on the same line. Kesler and Roy on separate lines would form two good lines, but in the playoffs, "good" isn't good enough.
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