Dave Hakstol Part V

[Beef Invictus]

Nah. Not worried about that at all.

You are aware it is the Philadelphia Flyers we are discussing, yes?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

It’s speculation but it’s not really a stretch to say blind loyalty is in play here with Hextall. He’s even admitted over the years he’s loyal to a fault. Not that it’s really unique to him though. A lot of guys in sports especially in hockey love jumping on grenades for incompetent people even when the choice not to do so is so obvious.

 

[Striiker]

What else is it? The guy is inept and the PK has been a failure for years. The old saying "where there is smoke, there is fire" is true here.

Well there's the hypothetical I was just talking about or maybe Hextall is just being overly patient or maybe he thinks the problem is elsewhere. There's three alternatives which, whether you believe them or not, shoots down the assumption that it must be loyalty.

 

[Striiker]

It’s speculation but it’s not really a stretch to say blind loyalty is in play here with Hextall. He’s even admitted over the years he’s loyal to a fault. Not that it’s really unique to him though. A lot of guys in sports especially in hockey love jumping on grenades for incompetent people even when the choice not to do so is so obvious.

No problem with speculation, I just see no reason to state it as if it's fact.

You are aware it is the Philadelphia Flyers we are discussing, yes?

There's a limit to my pessimism.

 

[TCTC]

Let me simplify my point for you since you’re getting hung up on the differences of two systems the respective fanbases are complaining aren’t effective (regardless of whether they were effective in the past):

Do you want a modern, uptempo coach, or not? If not, I can see the Quenneville love. But I thought most of you wanted more energy, more attacking, more uptempo. If so, the ridiculous love for Q today makes no sense.

Hiring one of the most successful coaches in recent history would be a low risk move and I think right now it would be the right move.
I also think Hextall wouldn't be as reluctant to replace him if it doesn't work because there are no excuses for Q not to be successful.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No problem with speculation, I just see no reason to state it as if it's fact.


There's a limit to my pessimism.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

There isn't "ridiculous love." There are people saying he'd be better than Hakstol, which is true and is badly needed. This coach has been a failure. He isn't going to win. A sign that the GM has the basic competence to recognize that and the courage to make an easy improvement would be very welcome, considering the atrocious handling of coaches so far.

I’ve agreed all along he’s better. I just find it humorous that Chicago fans have many of the same complaints against Q that Flyers fans have against Hak, yet many Flyers fans are foaming at the idea of Q. Well, get ready for defensive, non-aggressive hockey & favorite vets getting preference. Q will love Weise, Hagg, & Folin.

 

[Striiker]

I figure after how hard we've been f***ed by coaching for the last two coaches, we're due for a little positive karma here. At some point it's gotta even out a bit.

 

[magnumpi]

I’m not pretending they are equivalent coaches. I said I think Quenneville is better. But the fan complaints are so similar. System doesn’t work in today’s NHL. Not aggressive enough. Not enough energy. Plays favorites with vets over “better” players. If you can’t see the similarities you’re being obtuse. If you’re going to hire a new coach, & think the Flyers need to play a more modern uptempo game that doesn’t play favorites with vets, why would you hire Quenneville when the complaints about him are so similar? Because his antiquated system is preferable to Hak’s? Seems dumb to settle for another antiquated system just because you think it isn’t as antiquated as Hakstol’s. And is Hak’s even less antiquated? Philly scored 251 goals to Chicago’s 229 last season, & finished with a .598 points % vs Chi’s .463%.

If you’re going to fire Hak, shouldn’t those people falling head over heels for Q be wanting someone more modern & different than Hak? For all the complaints about “Hakshell,” Q plays a more boring, more defensive system.

Q won 3 cups
Q has been there for 10 seasons, at some point things grow stale and a change is needed for everyone. These guys are human beings, at some point they need to move on.
So the the fan comments about Q are irrelevant to me. Chicago's time had come and gone, same story repeatedly a thousand times in the annals of north american pro sports.

 

[Lindberg]

Well there's the hypothetical I was just talking about or maybe Hextall is just being overly patient or maybe he thinks the problem is elsewhere. There's three alternatives which, whether you believe them or not, shoots down the assumption that it must be loyalty.

The solution of doing nothing is sure working. Lappy should have been fired years ago. I guess keeping someone that is inept at their job while you look for a new hire is a smart move /not. If Lappy is just strictly working under Hakstol's instructions, he should do the organization a favor and quit. Either way I don't want him here any longer even if he isn't to blame at all.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I’ve agreed all along he’s better. I just find it humorous that Chicago fans have many of the same complaints against Q that Flyers fans have against Hak, yet many Flyers fans are foaming at the idea of Q. Well, get ready for defensive, non-aggressive hockey & favorite vets getting preference. Q will love Weise, Hagg, & Folin.

Yeah, but as I've pointed out they aren't the same complaints. You talk about Chicago fans complaining about an antiquated system; nobody here complains about the antiquity of Hakstol's system. The comparison dies on arrival.

Hell, for my part I've maintained from the start that Hakstol's idea of active Dmen is forward thinking and I still believe it is; with the scoring area shrinking for two decades, involving the Dmen more makes sense as a solution. And, there are times where it works wonderfully. Chiefly on the rush and in the moments of chaos before the teams settle in the zone, bringing a dman up to overpressure the opposition has been really effective over and over. Provorov, Sanheim, and Ghost have been taking turns demonstrating that aplenty. Where the system collapses is after that initial period is over. When we set up the cycle. And the emphasis remains setting up the D, which at that point is just force feeding them poor shots from the dark side of the moon. That's where other teams focus on setting up high percentage areas and we don't, and our forwards tend towards the perimeter to maintain the cycle and set up the D rather than each other in the ideal areas. And unfortunately, that is the bulk of offensive zone time. The rushes can be few and far between, they are quick. Then we just burn time doing things unlikely to put the puck in the net. So he has forward thinking ideas at the core, but the rest scuttles the idea and combined with his love for players unsuited for succeeding with how he wants them to play, it's just way worse than it needs to be.

So yeah, I've never seen any Chicago fans offer a complaint like the above.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Q won 3 cups
Q has been there for 10 seasons, at some point things grow stale and a change is needed for everyone. These guys are human beings, at some point they need to move on.
So the the fan comments about Q are irrelevant to me. Chicago's time had come and gone, same story repeatedly a thousand times in the annals of north american pro sports.

A stretch of an example (What with vastly different sports): Andy Reid. Reid didn't stop being a good coach. As we've seen, that isn't the case at all. The situation had simply gone sour. It was time to move on.

 

[Rebels57]

The buzzards were swarming around Hak and it seemed like something might happen
Hak gets one last road trip
Hak gets 7/8 points on the trip
Hak keeps his job and his job security in intact
Q gets fired and is available right as the road trip ends

God damnit I hate this timeline. Whatever at least the young players looked great on the trip.

It's just one in a loooooooooooooooooong line of punches to the guts for Flyers fans. It never f***ing ends.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I figure after how hard we've been ****ed by coaching for the last two coaches, we're due for a little positive karma here. At some point it's gotta even out a bit.

By that logic we'd have actually won one of the 412 Finals appearances we've made since the last win.

 

[magnumpi]

A stretch of an example (What with vastly different sports): Andy Reid. Reid didn't stop being a good coach. As we've seen, that isn't the case at all. The situation had simply gone sour. It was time to move on.

exactly,

the point being these guys are good coaches.

But at a certain point, a guy needs to move on. And you shouldn't judge how he'd benefit your team based on problems near the end of his reign of the previous team.

 

[Rebels57]

Here's the thing about Quenneville though..

Did he coach Hextall's son?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Yeah, but as I've pointed out they aren't the same complaints. You talk about Chicago fans complaining about an antiquated system; nobody here complains about the antiquity of Hakstol's system. The comparison dies on arrival.

Hell, for my part I've maintained from the start that Hakstol's idea of active Dmen is forward thinking and I still believe it is; with the scoring area shrinking for two decades, involving the Dmen more makes sense as a solution. And, there are times where it works wonderfully. Chiefly on the rush and in the moments of chaos before the teams settle in the zone, bringing a dman up to overpressure the opposition has been really effective over and over. Provorov, Sanheim, and Ghost have been taking turns demonstrating that aplenty. Where the system collapses is after that initial period is over. When we set up the cycle. And the emphasis remains setting up the D, which at that point is just force feeding them poor shots from the dark side of the moon. That's where other teams focus on setting up high percentage areas and we don't, and our forwards tend towards the perimeter to maintain the cycle and set up the D rather than each other in the ideal areas. And unfortunately, that is the bulk of offensive zone time. The rushes can be few and far between, they are quick. Then we just burn time doing things unlikely to put the puck in the net. So he has forward thinking ideas at the core, but the rest scuttles the idea and combined with his love for players unsuited for succeeding with how he wants them to play, it's just way worse than it needs to be.

So yeah, I've never seen any Chicago fans offer a complaint like the above.

You’re picking one complaint. I cited many.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You’re picking one complaint. I cited many.

I picked the one you harped on the most.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Q won 3 cups
Q has been there for 10 seasons, at some point things grow stale and a change is needed for everyone. These guys are human beings, at some point they need to move on.
So the the fan comments about Q are irrelevant to me. Chicago's time had come and gone, same story repeatedly a thousand times in the annals of north american pro sports.

Yup. I said Q is better than Hak & I’d have no problem hiring him. But he’s going to love Weise, Hagg, Folin, Lehtera & all the two-way heavy vets. And he’s generally slow to trust young players (with exceptions). And these have been two of this board’s biggest complaints about Hakstol.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I picked the one you harped on the most.

I harped on it in response to YOUR nitpicking of it.

 

[wuf]

Anyone saying we should keep Hakstol and not pickup Q is a clown. That's absurd. That's a complete joke. It's not even funny.
The experiment is over. Go back to college Dave. We need a better mentor for these kids and someone who isn't afraid to make some noise.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I harped on it in response to YOUR nitpicking of it.

Great, and I've refuted it. At the same time you have no response for the fact that we complain heavily about the shot quality produced by Hak's system while Chicago fans don't do that.

That's because the complaints aren't the same, no matter how hard you pretend.

 

[Adam Warlock]

Scott should tell Hextall to fire Hak and hire Q.

If he refuses, he should fire Hextall and Hak...hire Q and a new GM.

 

[Limeyjim]

The successful western trip was good for Hak's chances of staying put, but in all actuality I don't think Hextall would make a coaching change during the season. By the time they'd have the opportunity to hire a top tier coach like Q it'll be too late. Watch St. Louis hire him, and he takes the Blues to the finals......while we'll be watching the Flyers struggle to qualify for a wild card berth. Hakstol needs to be fired, and Hextall should be fired for stubbornly hanging onto his bad choice.

 

[hatcher]

I harped on it in response to YOUR nitpicking of it.

Hire Q and make trades.