CXL - UPDATE 12/9 - Coyotes settle bills after unpaid taxes come to light

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MNNumbers

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It’s a single piece of data based upon a consultants report that did not include the scenario of the Coyotes going across town and building a new arena.

People need to stop grasping at bits of data here and there and take a look at the bigger picture.

Shoalts picked his data just like everyone else does.

Once again, 2 things that are part of the bigger picture:
Coyote fans don't actually spend much money when they come to games, and thus the per event tax revenue for the Coyotes is not very large. This piece does NOT depend in any way shape or form on whether there is an arena in Tempe or not. The figure on the prior page of how much revenue comes to the city is just that. It is how much would have to be replaced if the team were not playing there.

Second, Glendale could very well have more than one reason for letting the Coyotes know there isn't going to be a renewal for 22-23. Sure, part of it is using all the leverage they have so that an arena isn't built in Tempe. But, it could also be true that they are tired of all the fighting they have to do to actually get what is coming to them from the team. That has been going on since IA and Anthony LeBlanc, and it has continued under Meruelo, until the city threatened them with having the offices and furniture and every thing else thrown onto the street and their business license canceled if they don't pay. If I were Glendale, I would be tired of a tenant like that, too.
 

TheLegend

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Once again, 2 things that are part of the bigger picture:
Coyote fans don't actually spend much money when they come to games, and thus the per event tax revenue for the Coyotes is not very large. This piece does NOT depend in any way shape or form on whether there is an arena in Tempe or not. The figure on the prior page of how much revenue comes to the city is just that. It is how much would have to be replaced if the team were not playing there.

Second, Glendale could very well have more than one reason for letting the Coyotes know there isn't going to be a renewal for 22-23. Sure, part of it is using all the leverage they have so that an arena isn't built in Tempe. But, it could also be true that they are tired of all the fighting they have to do to actually get what is coming to them from the team. That has been going on since IA and Anthony LeBlanc, and it has continued under Meruelo, until the city threatened them with having the offices and furniture and every thing else thrown onto the street and their business license canceled if they don't pay. If I were Glendale, I would be tired of a tenant like that, too.

And Glendale had them locked up through 2028, but then gave the Coyotes an out by terminating the deal because the mayor was on the short side of a vote and after getting a change in the council makeup thought he could leverage them into something different. Up until Meruelo bought the franchise they had leverage. Neither IA or Barroway had the financial chops to go anywhere else without a ton of public assistance and we all saw that.

It’s not a clean situation no matter how you want to look at it.
 

MNNumbers

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And Glendale had them locked up through 2028, but then gave the Coyotes an out by terminating the deal because the mayor was on the short side of a vote and after getting a change in the council makeup thought he could leverage them into something different. Up until Meruelo bought the franchise they had leverage. Neither IA or Barroway had the financial chops to go anywhere else without a ton of public assistance and we all saw that.

It’s not a clean situation no matter how you want to look at it.

I'm honestly not sure just exactly how this post fits into my suggestions that:

1- The amount of money which the city sees from each hockey fan is small. (This is no doubt because of where the arena is located, and I wouldn't at all suggest that Coyote fans are cheap. That's not the point. The point is that, given that it the case, the amount which needs to made up is not so large either. And, that amount may or may not affect the payment of the bonds.)

or

2- Glendale may have handed the team walking papers in part because the last 3 owners have been difficult to deal with, and they are tired of it.

No argument here, Legend. I am not able to follow your idea. Please help me make the connections.

If one of the connections is: If the owners were so difficult to deal with, why didn't they refuse to renew before? Well, I can think of 2 reasons. One is that bad relationships take time to dawn on the one suffering. The second is that the report from COG's consultant is new, and maybe prior council should have asked for one, but never did.

Not that I am suggesting COG is a drawer of bright bulbs, mind you. I was in favor of them signing an AMF with SMG and NOT making a lease with the Yotes when IA was trying to buy the team. They would have gotten a much better deal had they done that. But, oh well....
 

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People care because they are interested in the topic. Same reason they would read and respond to any other thread in any other forum - they are interested in the topic.
Mmhmm.

There's casual interest in a topic by "outsiders", and then there's borderline unhealthy obsession. Both have been witnessed here in the megathread.
 

TheLegend

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I'm honestly not sure just exactly how this post fits into my suggestions that:

1- The amount of money which the city sees from each hockey fan is small. (This is no doubt because of where the arena is located, and I wouldn't at all suggest that Coyote fans are cheap. That's not the point. The point is that, given that it the case, the amount which needs to made up is not so large either. And, that amount may or may not affect the payment of the bonds.)

or

2- Glendale may have handed the team walking papers in part because the last 3 owners have been difficult to deal with, and they are tired of it.

No argument here, Legend. I am not able to follow your idea. Please help me make the connections.

If one of the connections is: If the owners were so difficult to deal with, why didn't they refuse to renew before? Well, I can think of 2 reasons. One is that bad relationships take time to dawn on the one suffering. The second is that the report from COG's consultant is new, and maybe prior council should have asked for one, but never did.

Not that I am suggesting COG is a drawer of bright bulbs, mind you. I was in favor of them signing an AMF with SMG and NOT making a lease with the Yotes when IA was trying to buy the team. They would have gotten a much better deal had they done that. But, oh well....


Just saying this…

The current business model of the Coyotes being a tenant in an arena they don’t control or own doesn’t work. Anywhere.

That began back when Steve Ellman and Jerry Moyes dissolved their partnership with the result splitting the Coyotes off from Westgate. Moyes didn’t care… but the Coyotes gave him a asset to exploit just to prop up his other businesses.

I’m digressing a bit there, but the result was Moyes’ antics put the Coyotes into a financial chasm that they’ve been trying to crawl out of since.

Since that point there has been multiple ownerships with numerous (and somewhat entertaining) methods to get some sort of additional income that we both can agree the franchise needed. But that’s the problem.

You can’t put the Coyotes and Westgate back under the same tent. That chance was permanently lost when Bob Parsons bought Westgate (for half of what the Coyotes are currently worth) and he’s not going to give it up.

Neither IA nor Barroway had the ability to buy Westgate. Meruelo could have. But he came along too late.

IA had a lease agreement that could have allowed them to stay at GRA but they blew it in regards to how they we’re keeping their financial records (and hiring Glendale’s former city attorney).

You should be aware that in spite of Glendale cancelling that original lease, ever since then the city had been trying to get a new long term lease with the Coyotes. With IA, Barroway and finally Meruelo. Problem with that is (as I stated at the outset) it doesn’t work in this day and age of pro sports.

Now SMG for you might have been a better alternative but it’s been quite clear that GRA was having serious trouble drawing non-sporting events in that era. Glendale went with ASM because they thought it would help keep the Coyotes there.

Even with Meruelo, city manager Phelps admitted that Glendale was still willing to go with a 12-18 lease agreement. Why bother if Meruelo is such a “crook”, deadbeat and all round bad person would the city want to deal with 12-18 more years of him? Especially when they’re taking the position they don’t need him?

What we’re seeing now was going to happen sooner or later. It would have happened a year sooner had the pandemic not come along. Meruelo admitted in a press conference in early 2020 that he was very close to having something in place but the pause and bubble play put it all on hold.

It wasn’t a matter of if…. it was when.
 
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MNNumbers

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Just saying this…

The current business model of the Coyotes being a tenant in an arena they don’t control or own doesn’t work. Anywhere.

That began back when Steve Ellman and Jerry Moyes dissolved their partnership with the result splitting the Coyotes off from Westgate. Moyes didn’t care… but the Coyotes gave him a asset to exploit just to prop up his other businesses.

I’m digressing a bit there, but the result was Moyes’ antics put the Coyotes into a financial chasm that they’ve been trying to crawl out of since.

Since that point there has been multiple ownerships with numerous (and somewhat entertaining) methods to get some sort of additional income that we both can agree the franchise needed. But that’s the problem.

You can’t put the Coyotes and Westgate back under the same tent. That chance was permanently lost when Bob Parsons bought Westgate (for half of what the Coyotes are currently worth) and he’s not going to give it up.

Neither IA nor Barroway had the ability to buy Westgate. Meruelo could have. But he came along too late.

IA had a lease agreement that could have allowed them to stay at GRA but they blew it in regards to how they we’re keeping their financial records (and hiring Glendale’s former city attorney).

You should be aware that in spite of Glendale cancelling that original lease, ever since then the city had been trying to get a new long term lease with the Coyotes. With IA, Barroway and finally Meruelo. Problem with that is (as I stated at the outset) it doesn’t work in this day and age of pro sports.

Now SMG for you might have been a better alternative but it’s been quite clear that GRA was having serious trouble drawing non-sporting events in that era. Glendale went with ASM because they thought it would help keep the Coyotes there.

Even with Meruelo, city manager Phelps admitted that Glendale was still willing to go with a 12-18 lease agreement. Why bother if Meruelo is such a “crook”, deadbeat and all round bad person would the city want to deal with 12-18 more years of him? Especially when they’re taking the position they don’t need him?

What we’re seeing now was going to happen sooner or later. It would have happened a year sooner had the pandemic not come along. Meruelo admitted in a press conference in early 2020 that he was very close to having something in place but the pause and bubble play put it all on hold.

It wasn’t a matter of if…. it was when.

I agree with all of this post EXCEPT the part which assumes that Meruelo's behavior is not a factor here.

More background.
The year is 2013. The league has owned the team outright for 2 seasons, and may have been operating in some capacity for 4 seasons, and they want to sell. There is no lease, because the BK broke the lease.
Ice Arizona arrives, and makes an offer to buy the team, under the condition that there be a 15M/yr AMF associated with the arena.
COG runs an RFP for arena management, and one of the respondents is SMG, who made a presentation under the idea that they would manage either with or without the team present. The information in said response showed that there was lots more money available to the arena without the Coyotes than with them, for the simple reason that the arena gets nothing on game nights, because the team gets everything. At that time, the entertainment industry was in a better place than it is now, and the smart move for the city would have been to say "Good Bye" to the team. However, the city didn't make the smart move. The vote was 4-3, of course. And, that indicates this simple fact: There is more than one person giving input on that council. Some of those 4 votes were obviously based on some emotion involved in 'civic pride' that 'we are big league and host the NHL'. One of the votes might have been a trade for a 'yes' on a different issue facing the City Council. It was a messy business.

3 years later, after suffering 7 years of horrible arena management (the NHL didn't care for 4 years, and IA was incompetent in most things it did), the city hired Global Spectrum, now ASM. The market for events, and the inertia of the arena were completely different by then, and it is not possible to say what would have happened had they chosen differently in 2013.

Now, Glendale's options are:
Try to get the team to sign for 12-18 years. IF THAT WERE TO HAPPEN, I would think that the city would consider that at some point some stability would have to develop in the team. No more complaining about Glendale's location. Perhaps the team becomes a more obvious part of the community. Perhaps, as Westgate continues its development and the West Valley builds out, that the arena becomes a bigger part of the situation. In the minds of some people on the CC, perhaps that outweighs the difficulty of dealing with Meruelo.

However, if he is not going to sign that (And, he shouldn't, for reasons that you detailed very well @TheLegend ), then the city has the option of continuing short term with the team. Now, however, it becomes apparent that all the city is doing is paving the way out for the team, and that's not so wise. So, in a more difficult situation, Meruelo's behavior becomes more difficult to stomach. And, may become one factor for cutting ties in June of 2022.

If the matter were purely financial, and Glendale had the single purpose of preventing the new arena, then their play would be to not renew the lease, and, if the Tempe project is signed off, to form a short term deal with the Yotes at higher rent yet. Such an agreement would clearly be in the financial best interests of both parties (if we work on the assumption here that the games bring more tax money to the city than anything else they could do the arena during hockey season). Glendale would get maybe 4-5M/yr more out the team before they left, and Meruelo would lose far less than he will in any other situation. However, I am very sure that such a short term lease will NOT happen. Which shows that the messiness of the divorce has something to do with the actions of the players.

Concerning 'arenas' in general, it is exactly true that the NHL cannot survive in North America without something besides the team bringing in extra cash. The Yotes are the only team with no arena management rights. That is very telling. That such a thing is true simply points out, again, that one of the big problems with this league is that Toronto, Montreal, New York Rangers (mainly, but a few others) can print money on their ticket printing machine, and there are not enough markets who can come close to that. There is no easy fix to that situation.
 
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Major4Boarding

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Even with Meruelo, city manager Phelps admitted that Glendale was still willing to go with a 12-18 lease agreement. Why bother if Meruelo is such a “crook”, deadbeat and all round bad person would the city want to deal with 12-18 more years of him? Especially when they’re taking the position they don’t need him?

I just want to add my two cents to this by saying that I don’t think the city of Glendale is looking to get into a 12 to 18 year relationship with Alex Meruelo himself. Their bigger picture in that timeframe is the franchise, as a whole, regardless of who owns them

Past history should teach us that no owner of this franchise has ever stuck around for that long.
 
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TheLegend

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I just want to add my two cents to this by saying that I don’t think the city of Glendale is looking to get into a 12 to 18 year relationship with Alex Meruelo himself. Their bigger picture in that timeframe is the franchise, as a whole, regardless of who owns them

Past history should teach us that no owner of this franchise has ever stuck around for that long.

Good point. But I go back to past history when the mayor of Phoenix proposed a new arena for both the Suns and Coyotes and Glendale made it sure to publicly leak out the letters from its mayor of city manager to back off negotiating with the Coyotes (under IA). Then later on the IA proposal with ASU to get their local congressman to lead a public campaign against that too.

Glendale's position this entire time has clearly been, "If we can't have the Coyotes then we're going to make sure nobody else can." That's tantamount to a restraint of trade.
 
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gstommylee

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Good point. But I go back to past history when the mayor of Phoenix proposed a new arena for both the Suns and Coyotes and Glendale made it sure to publicly leak out the letters from its mayor of city manager to back off negotiating with the Coyotes (under IA). Then later on the IA proposal with ASU to get their local congressman to lead a public campaign against that too.

Glendale's position this entire time has clearly been, "If we can't have the Coyotes then we're going to make sure nobody else can." That's tantamount to a restraint of trade.

I wonder if they are gonna start sending letters to get the team to stop being relocated out of state too if that were to happen.
 

Ciao

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Good point. But I go back to past history when the mayor of Phoenix proposed a new arena for both the Suns and Coyotes and Glendale made it sure to publicly leak out the letters from its mayor of city manager to back off negotiating with the Coyotes (under IA). Then later on the IA proposal with ASU to get their local congressman to lead a public campaign against that too.

Glendale's position this entire time has clearly been, "If we can't have the Coyotes then we're going to make sure nobody else can." That's tantamount to a restraint of trade.
Your posts a re very balanced, @TheLegend, but the restraint of trade thing is a bit much.

They are without doubt discouraging construction of an new competitor, but I don't think that amounts to restraint of trade any more than a business lowering its prices or improving its service for the same purpose.
 

Ciao

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I wonder if they are gonna start sending letters to get the team to stop being relocated out of state too if that were to happen.
I don't know why anyone might think they would actively discourage relocation of the Coyotes out of Arizona.

I would rather think a relo should help Glendale market its arena without additional competition in the region.
 
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aqib

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This is not “next level stuff”

It…. happens…. more… often….. than….. people…. are….. willing….. to…… admit.

Is it right? No.

Is it often used as fodder for someone’s personal narrative? You bet your ass.

Stretching payables happens all the time. Fortune 500 companies do it. However, they don't flat out refuse to pay and dare the supplier to sue and then settle for a lower amount. They also don't do that with their landlords, governments, and banks if they have them (yes I know they didn't default on payments to banks . Like I said to Mouser its not comments on this board that made people think that Muruelo is unique in this area, its the fact that The Athletic did a detailed story on it and the fact that they almost got locked out of the arena because they didn't pay their taxes for an extended period of time. Thats the part that's next level.
 
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aqib

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It’s a single piece of data based upon a consultants report that did not include the scenario of the Coyotes going across town and building a new arena.

People need to stop grasping at bits of data here and there and take a look at the bigger picture.

Shoalts picked his data just like everyone else does.

It may only be a single peice of data but its the only one we have about how much people attending games generate in taxes per game. That is independent of whether there is a new arena accross town or not. They are talking about what they generate now not what they would generate in the future.

How much they would get from non-Coyotes events IS dependent on if there is another arena popping up across town.
 
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TheLegend

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Stretching payables happens all the time. Fortune 500 companies do it. However, they don't flat out refuse to pay and dare the supplier to sue and then settle for a lower amount. They also don't do that with their landlords, governments, and banks if they have them (yes I know they didn't default on payments to banks . Like I said to Mouser its not comments on this board that made people think that Muruelo is unique in this area, its the fact that The Athletic did a detailed story on it and the fact that they almost got locked out of the arena because they didn't pay their taxes for an extended period of time. Thats the part that's next level.

What…. Did you honestly believe Meruelo would have ever called Glendale’s bluff?

The drama here is killing me.
 

TheLegend

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Your posts a re very balanced, @TheLegend, but the restraint of trade thing is a bit much.

They are without doubt discouraging construction of an new competitor, but I don't think that amounts to restraint of trade any more than a business lowering its prices or improving its service for the same purpose.

Yes, I knew it was a bit out there.

But their attempts over the past 8 years to interfere with with at least two other cities in the Coyotes efforts to go elsewhere smacks of pure bad behavior

A friend of mine via social media who worked with Greg Jamison’s bid confirmed to me he was also looking for sites in Scottsdale to move the Coyotes to within 10 years had his bid been successful.

As I said previously this situation was eventually going to happen the moment Ellman and Moyes split the Coyotes off from Westgate.
 
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MNNumbers

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Where does this claim come from? Have you been to any of the bars & restaurants on game day?

It comes from Glendale's own report. And, that has always made sense to me, since the fan base talks about how far the arena is from home, and there is barely enough time to get there, and you have to get home and it's 45 minutes home, and.....

By which I am not criticising anyone or anything. I'm merely taking the figures we have been presented here for face value.
 
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Bondurant

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It comes from Glendale's own report. And, that has always made sense to me, since the fan base talks about how far the arena is from home, and there is barely enough time to get there, and you have to get home and it's 45 minutes home, and.....

By which I am not criticising anyone or anything. I'm merely taking the figures we have been presented here for face value.
Weeknights are tough. I am not buying a ticket and stopping for food or booze. If I am lucky I can get in before before puck drops. Weekends is a different story. I come well before the arena opens to avoid paying for parking and the popular places like Yard house are already filling. Would love to see their report but would not be shocked if it was gamed somehow. "Look! Bob came to Monster Jam and bought one more beer than Mike did for the Coyotes!"
 
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MNNumbers

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I think the report was intended to determine how much economic activity there is around the arena for the purpose of sales tax receipts as a result of games.

No question weeknights are difficult for fans, especially week in and week out.

Unique events might do better. Not sure.

It doesn't say anything about the fans. Only about how much the team actually helps pay for the arena.
 
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TheLegend

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I think the report was intended to determine how much economic activity there is around the arena for the purpose of sales tax receipts as a result of games.

No question weeknights are difficult for fans, especially week in and week out.

Unique events might do better. Not sure.

It doesn't say anything about the fans. Only about how much the team actually helps pay for the arena.

Here’s the rub to that.

I would bet they looked at sales on game days versus non-game days. Meaning they would assume traffic to Westgate on non-game days would be consistent. When a lot of us who live in the area know that isn’t true.

So IOW…. the number is really meaningless unless we know what the methodology was used to generate that number.
 

aqib

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What…. Did you honestly believe Meruelo would have ever called Glendale’s bluff?

The drama here is killing me.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I know all about the stretching of payables and but what's been documented in the case of the Coyotes is beyond anything within the realm of how normal businesses do things.
 
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aqib

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Here’s the rub to that.

I would bet they looked at sales on game days versus non-game days. Meaning they would assume traffic to Westgate on non-game days would be consistent. When a lot of us who live in the area know that isn’t true.

So IOW…. the number is really meaningless unless we know what the methodology was used to generate that number.

I agree with you that we need to know the methodolgy. I will also go further and say the tracking of peripheral spending generated by sports teams is very difficult to track (this is my central criticism of Field of Schemes).

However, lets work the numbers a second. They say $12K in sales taxes. Now the sales tax for Glendale is 2.9%. So they are saying that people attending Coyotes games spend approximately $414K in Glendale on game days. At attendance of 14K (higher than most years) that averages out to about $30 per fan in spending. So are you saying its higher than that?
 

aqib

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Weeknights are tough. I am not buying a ticket and stopping for food or booze. If I am lucky I can get in before before puck drops. Weekends is a different story. I come well before the arena opens to avoid paying for parking and the popular places like Yard house are already filling. Would love to see their report but would not be shocked if it was gamed somehow. "Look! Bob came to Monster Jam and bought one more beer than Mike did for the Coyotes!"

Here is on thing I wonder about. Why after 18 years have they not developed any kind of fan base on that side of the valley. Given how cheap tickets are why aren't fans on that side of town at least checking things out? Tickets to Mondays game against the Kings are $20 on stubhub. So even if you weren't a huge hockey fan, wouldn't you just grab a ticket and check it out. Even the January 8th game against Nashville are the same price and thats a Saturday game. I don't follow the MLS but since I am a 15 minute drive from TFC's stadium my wife and I still did a date night there just to check it out because it was something to do.
 
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