I obviously haven't been there but I recall in the news story about Glendale breaking off talks they talked about making upgrades and it not being worth it for the city unless the Coyotes were making a long-term committment.
CXL - UPDATE 12/9 - Coyotes settle bills after unpaid taxes come to light
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I obviously haven't been there but I recall in the news story about Glendale breaking off talks they talked about making upgrades and it not being worth it for the city unless the Coyotes were making a long-term committment.
TheLegend
Hardly Deactivated
Great, so the suppose $200M which is supposed to mitigate the city's 'expense' of cleaning up the land, actually becomes a 130M subsidy...."at least", depending on negotiations.
Great.
TheLegend
Hardly Deactivated
Might have been the part where the city would put some money into whatever upgrades they were talking about as long as the Coyotes put at least an equivalent amount in.
But IIRC they (Phelps) also referred to some things being done to repurpose the arena post-Coyotes.
I agree that it's very much in Glendale's interest to discourage construction of yet another arena/concert venue in the region.
I have the image of an angry wife throwing her husband's belongings out the window and onto the street, screaming at him to get the f*** out -- now -- when she realized he wants to stay until the new condo is built for him and his girlfriend.
Why should Glendale facilitate the Coyotes' business in the Valley if it helps them bridge the gap to the construction of a new arena in Tempe?
@gstommylee -- I think you're either naive or delusional if you really think Glendale is posturing.
I have the image of an angry wife throwing her husband's belongings out the window and onto the street, screaming at him to get the f*** out -- now -- when she realized he wants to stay until the new condo is built for him and his girlfriend.
Why should Glendale facilitate the Coyotes' business in the Valley if it helps them bridge the gap to the construction of a new arena in Tempe?
@gstommylee -- I think you're either naive or delusional if you really think Glendale is posturing.
TheLegend
Hardly Deactivated
Well we’re still waiting for the details to where that remainder goes.
Infrastucture around the site and a parking garage which Tempe would permanently own and operate were the only thing I recall.
I posted a few days back where Glendale looked to build a garage at Westgate in 2015-16 (to satisfy their commitment to the Cardinals) and the price tag for it was $46 million. But without knowing what size the Tempe garage would be it’s difficult to compare.
Llama19
Registered User
Coyotes settle up with Glendale, will remain at Gila River Arena through June
To quote:
"The Coyotes made a payment of $923,388.27 Monday, bringing the team up to date with its financial obligations to AMS (sic) Global and the city through Dec. 31.
"Assuming the Coyotes keep current on rent and associated charges, the team can continue to use the Arena and facilities until the expiration of the agreement on June 30th, 2022," the city's statement said."
Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2021/12/20/arizona-coyotes-settle-up-glendale-stay-arena-now/8977012002/
To quote:
"The Coyotes made a payment of $923,388.27 Monday, bringing the team up to date with its financial obligations to AMS (sic) Global and the city through Dec. 31.
"Assuming the Coyotes keep current on rent and associated charges, the team can continue to use the Arena and facilities until the expiration of the agreement on June 30th, 2022," the city's statement said."
Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2021/12/20/arizona-coyotes-settle-up-glendale-stay-arena-now/8977012002/
Not arguing just clarifying. What is Joyce Clarke referring to when she refers to "With the remodeling of the city owned Gila River Arena focusing on the customer experience at a major concert venue"
https://joyceclarkunfiltered.com/category/glendale-economic-development/
TheLegend
Hardly Deactivated
Feh… you have to expect Glendale to paint the rosiest picture possible.
They’ve got an $200 million taxpayer funded albatross on their hands they still $120 million on. And. It’s not the only thing they’re on the hook for.
Joyce still gets grief from a few residents over the spring training facility that in some residents eyes, only gets used two months a year. Brings in relatively next to zero income and they’re on the hook for roughly the same amount.
But because the Coyotes are in the news so much it gets all the attention.
Yes, but you've answered the wrong question. Not the city *government*, the *city* itself is what I'm asking about. (Although I love how frick and frack jump right on the bandwagon
) I never cared who owned the building, just what happened to the immediate vicinity after the team left.
Mightygoose
Registered User
Yes, but you've answered the wrong question. Not the city *government*, the *city* itself is what I'm asking about. (Although I love how frick and frack jump right on the bandwagon
Apparently, the land is being redeveloped
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wx...d-into-corporate-offices-tech-firms?_amp=true
We've re-zoned this as a T&R, technology and research," said Mayor Kevin McDaniel of Auburn Hills. "So the opportunities are going to be great here. There's going to be opportunities for growth, for businesses, opportunities for research and development. And ultimately it's going to foster innovation and create a lot of jobs."
The team made a decision to leave the city and anticipation of the city was ready to move on....much like Glendale appears to be since the Coyotes have no intention to stay long term
City of Auburn Hills ready to move on if Detroit Pistons move downtown
While I am disappointed to hear (Pistons owner Tom) Gores talk in terms of a likely departure, I am proud of the fact that we have been their hometown since 1988,” said McDaniel, who has been mayor of Auburn Hills since 2013. “It has always been our position that the arena’s private ownership is a model that should be duplicated throughout the country. The private sector built it, and the private sector profited from its operation.”
Is that better?
And, sadly, the presence of the Coyotes really hasn't done one thing to relieve the weight of that albatross.
True, very true that Glendale would prefer not to see another arena be built. Please do not despise them for that in this thread Legend. You can hate them for it on F40. But, it's just business. The City of Glendale has not done one thing in this entire saga which was unethical or immoral or illegal.
On the other hand, the Coyote ownership, and the leadership of the league in which they play, has never ceased to deal with Glendale in unethical, manipulative ways.....to wit:
1- Please pay the NHL 25M/yr for 2 years to cover our losses or we will move this team
2- The team moves unless you sign this ridiculously overpriced 15M/yr AMF, which was then signed, leading to....
3- IA (ownership) not paying the surcharges on tickets in a timely manner
Which led to IA, having done too many stupid things, losing their subsidy, and being so mad about it that they have told the spin-doctored story a million times since that the location in Glendale is the problem, when the obvious problem is that COG isn't subsidizing their losses.
Which led to Meruelo's ownership and....
1- Nonpayment of bills due to Glendale
2- Nonpayment of state taxes, for pity's sake.
Look, I feel bad for the fans in the Coyotes' market. They haven't been able to relax and have fun for about 13 years now. That has to get old. One shifty, underfunded owner after another. Each one bringing a fresh bunch of hope, and turning out to be just like the others. That's got to be really old.
And, if we are being honest and looking at the "business of hockey", we have to admit that Glendale is not the problem here.
Simply summed up, the problem is that there isn't enough money in the market for both the team and its host city. That's the problem.
And, that is the reason that my 'deal' with Meruelo, were I Tempe, would be like this:
1- It's your money to clean up the site
2- It's your money to build the infrastructure
3- After it is built, and creating tax dollars for us, we will reimburse you for some of the clean up, and some of the things like a parking deck.
4- It's your place. Not ours. You live or die on whether it's viable business.
5- No continuing taxes, no future city obligations. Nothing.
And, I would be sure that, under those circumstances, the place won't be built. Meruelo is not an honest businessman, and he won't do an honest deal.
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Well, yes, but I'm still looking not so much for a "what is going to happen?" but more of a "what did happen/is happening now?"... it's not important, probably no one on here is any more familiar with Detroit than they are with Phoenix anyway, heh.
TheGreenTBer
shut off the power while I take a big shit
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Terrific post @MNNumbers .
I agree entirely but he'd never do that. He wants the other party to upfront everything so he can refuse to pay the bill for it later.
I still have this feeling that Tempe will go through (not even sure why at this point), though if I were making the decision I'd already have thrown Meruelo out with his tainted, un-paid-for bathwater.
I agree entirely but he'd never do that. He wants the other party to upfront everything so he can refuse to pay the bill for it later.
I still have this feeling that Tempe will go through (not even sure why at this point), though if I were making the decision I'd already have thrown Meruelo out with his tainted, un-paid-for bathwater.
TheLegend
Hardly Deactivated
The original concept of the arena at Westgate was to be a driver of Westgate. With Westgate helping support the arena and franchise. It was never the plan for the arena and Coyotes to stand on their own. This is is what Meruelo is attempting to do in Tempe. There is a distinct possibility that if Meruelo had been able to purchase Westgate prior to the Coyotes we'd be in a much different situation now.
I'm not despising Glendale.... I've said more than once I see what they're doing. Just as I'm looking at what Meruelo is attempting to do. GRA became an albatross the moment Ellman and Moyes split their partnership. Because we were in a huge recession and Ellman would have lost everything. As it was Ellman eventually walked away from the whole thing without losing a dime (rumor is he actualy profited from it). Leaving Glendale to salvage what was left. So yes..... I'm not without some empathy for what Glendale did to salvage the situation.
As for what you would like to se Tempe do?? Good luck getting any business of significant size to come into your city under those conditions. That's how it's been done for decades and it's not going away any time soon. There's always a give and take factor and the hope is that both sides end up benefitting from it.
Again,
I profess my continuing admiration for Coyote fans. The whole existence of the franchise has been done poorly. It's not the fans' fault. It's the fault of the higher powers.
To wit: dropping the team in with an emergency landing in a relocation is NOT the right way to develop a relatively new sport, especially in a market like Phoenix. I had discussion with another poster here, and I would agree that Nashville would have been better AT THE TIME, and that Phoenix would have been better served by an expansion franchise coming with a few years lead in to build excitement.
Continuing: Ellman had the right idea...it's not possible to survive in a new market like Phoenix on game day revenues only, when you have to deal with obstructed view seating. That can't work. So, a new arena was necessary. The Phoenix market is a huge market, so there should be ample population to support 2 arenas. However, in many ways, the opening in Glendale was out of his control. Since Scottsdale wouldn't do a deal with him (never mind the reasons), he had 2 choices - "Tell Glendale that he appreciated their offer, but they weren't the right place" or "Ok, let's go for it". Who can blame him for going for the deal that was offered.
Continuing more: The recession in the late 00's killed the development of Westgate, and that one event has led to all the other problems since. Since the development of Westgate wasn't continuing, Ellman looked for ways to insulate himself from further losses and separating the team from the development company worked well for him. Not so well for Moyes, who was a victim of circumstance. Once the team was again floating on its own, there couldn't be a good outcome.
And, it is important to remember these things. It's nothing to blame the team(or the market) for that they aren't really solvent without being part of a larger picture. That's the basis of the Islanders present situation, with their new arena. There aren't any markets left that would sustain NHL hockey without some connection to a larger enterprise. That's obvious. Well, except for Quebec, which probably land around 20-25 on the revenue list, and be near break-even. And, a 2nd Toronto (which won't happen for other political reasons).
One can't blame the market that the Coyotes are literally the only team in the league without ownership or management rights to their arena. That's not the market's fault. That's on the league itself, who allowed the business aspect and the events aspect of GRA to fade to nearly nothing in the 2 years they owned the team and managed the arena. Had they kept up what GRA had going for it when, Moyes put the team in BK, IA wouldn't have needed a 15M/yr subsidy, because the arena was making money. A reasonable contract at that point would have allowed the team much more revenue. But, because the league didn't care about the arena when they owned the team, there was nothing left there for them.
Again, one cannot blame the market for any of these things. And, so we are at the point where the business in Glendale is so destroyed that there is not enough money there for the team to survive, so they are looking for a new place, and Glendale is happy to see them leave, but much happier if they move out of market, so there won't be the competition of a new arena.
Therefore, everyone is protecting their own interests (except Tempe, who are playing with the devil). It's a horrible situation for any real hockey fans there.
No one from Canada should accuse the market of any wrongs because there isn't a situation like it in Canada, so there are no comparables.
No one from any place in the states should make hard comments about relocation, because many of the other markets have suffered bad times, too.
Everyone should be screaming about the league totally botching the situation in 2009-2010. That's where the problem really lies.
I profess my continuing admiration for Coyote fans. The whole existence of the franchise has been done poorly. It's not the fans' fault. It's the fault of the higher powers.
To wit: dropping the team in with an emergency landing in a relocation is NOT the right way to develop a relatively new sport, especially in a market like Phoenix. I had discussion with another poster here, and I would agree that Nashville would have been better AT THE TIME, and that Phoenix would have been better served by an expansion franchise coming with a few years lead in to build excitement.
Continuing: Ellman had the right idea...it's not possible to survive in a new market like Phoenix on game day revenues only, when you have to deal with obstructed view seating. That can't work. So, a new arena was necessary. The Phoenix market is a huge market, so there should be ample population to support 2 arenas. However, in many ways, the opening in Glendale was out of his control. Since Scottsdale wouldn't do a deal with him (never mind the reasons), he had 2 choices - "Tell Glendale that he appreciated their offer, but they weren't the right place" or "Ok, let's go for it". Who can blame him for going for the deal that was offered.
Continuing more: The recession in the late 00's killed the development of Westgate, and that one event has led to all the other problems since. Since the development of Westgate wasn't continuing, Ellman looked for ways to insulate himself from further losses and separating the team from the development company worked well for him. Not so well for Moyes, who was a victim of circumstance. Once the team was again floating on its own, there couldn't be a good outcome.
And, it is important to remember these things. It's nothing to blame the team(or the market) for that they aren't really solvent without being part of a larger picture. That's the basis of the Islanders present situation, with their new arena. There aren't any markets left that would sustain NHL hockey without some connection to a larger enterprise. That's obvious. Well, except for Quebec, which probably land around 20-25 on the revenue list, and be near break-even. And, a 2nd Toronto (which won't happen for other political reasons).
One can't blame the market that the Coyotes are literally the only team in the league without ownership or management rights to their arena. That's not the market's fault. That's on the league itself, who allowed the business aspect and the events aspect of GRA to fade to nearly nothing in the 2 years they owned the team and managed the arena. Had they kept up what GRA had going for it when, Moyes put the team in BK, IA wouldn't have needed a 15M/yr subsidy, because the arena was making money. A reasonable contract at that point would have allowed the team much more revenue. But, because the league didn't care about the arena when they owned the team, there was nothing left there for them.
Again, one cannot blame the market for any of these things. And, so we are at the point where the business in Glendale is so destroyed that there is not enough money there for the team to survive, so they are looking for a new place, and Glendale is happy to see them leave, but much happier if they move out of market, so there won't be the competition of a new arena.
Therefore, everyone is protecting their own interests (except Tempe, who are playing with the devil). It's a horrible situation for any real hockey fans there.
No one from Canada should accuse the market of any wrongs because there isn't a situation like it in Canada, so there are no comparables.
No one from any place in the states should make hard comments about relocation, because many of the other markets have suffered bad times, too.
Everyone should be screaming about the league totally botching the situation in 2009-2010. That's where the problem really lies.
I would do a different deal with, for example, Leipold who owns the Wild. I would do a different deal with Dundon. I would do a different deal with a lot of other owners. I would NOT do a different deal with Meruelo, because he has shown himself to be a shyster.
And, to be truthful about it, I would communicate that to Bettman. Something like this:
Memo to the office of the Commissioner of the NHL:
From: City Council of Tempe
Mt Bettman,
As you know, the ownership of your franchise in the Phoenix Valley has approached our city with an idea of a new arena, which they would like to build on land in our city. We have a parcel that might meet his needs and that of his team, and we know very well that you, as the commissioner of the NHL, would love to see such a development happen.
However, we as a city have a major problem with this idea. Our problem is the specific identity of your owner.
You may be aware that his business history here in our Valley contains the following items:
1: Bonus payments late to his own players
2: Late payments to his landlord in the city of Glendale
3: Rumored and verified late payments to many of his vendors
4: Late payments on his taxes to the state of Arizona
Mr Bettman, please, we ask that you are respectfully aware that, while we are interested in the project, we are not interested in trying to do business with someone who gets other peoples' money, and then dares them to get it back through the court system.
If you are able to bring about different ownership, who can show us a record of honesty in their business dealings, we would be happy to consider this idea, or a different one.
But we cannot deal with Mr Meruelo.
Thank you,
Representatives of the city of Tempe.
That's what I would do.
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Agreed. You can't make a private organization pay for every little thing and making them pay for stuff that always has been cities responsibility that include cleaning up public property that is the Tempe's responsibility not Meruelo.
Streets. sewers, sidewalks. water traffic lights etc all of that always been the cities' responsiblity. They should pay the salaries from that free police/emergency service building too? Good lord...
What is your issue? Good god... IF the city did that to every single business in the country. No one would ever come there, they'll just go somewhere else and take all that tax revenue with them to another city.
No business would ever do that... That would be like charging every single business the cost to widen a road from a 2 lane to a 4 lane thats on that street. The city has its responsibility that they can't shove onto someone else. Infrastructure has always been the city's responsibility to pay for and maintain not the private sector.
My issue is that Meruelo is a crook, and I wouldn't do business with crooks. Honest businesses, sure. But NOT HIM
So take out #1, as that's a non-starter and would always be on the city, and following from that the words "some of the clean up, and" from #3. Now does it get built?
No private business would ever agree to conditions not a single one. What suggesting is out what bloody irresponsible...
Tax payers aren't even paying for that plan in Tempe outside the cities own responsibility aka roads, water sewer, electricity, traffic lights. You can't make him or anyone else pay for their own responsibility as a city.
That 200m is called public financing not public funding. Huge difference. 200m that will get paid back with revenue that only exists if that arena/entertainment district actually happens...
No idea why you such having issues with something that doesn't impact you.
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