CXL - UPDATE 12/9 - Coyotes settle bills after unpaid taxes come to light

[MNNumbers]

No private business would ever agree to conditions not a single one. What suggesting is out what bloody irresponsible...

Tax payers aren't even paying for that plan in Tempe outside the cities own responsibility aka roads, water sewer, electricity, traffic lights. You can't make him or anyone else pay for their own responsibility as a city.

That 200m is called public financing not public funding. Huge difference. 200m that will get paid back with revenue that only exists if that arena/entertainment district actually happens...

No idea why you such having issues with something that doesn't impact you.

What is the arrangement in Seattle?

And, you wonder why I am so concerned about it? When you post strong opinions every time Quebec is mentioned here?

Again, I am not criticizing the deal with Tempe at all. We don't know the details of it. We can sure whatever the details are, they will change after some negotiations.

I am simply saying that if I were Tempe, I would not do a deal with a businessman with Meruelo's record.

Read my post again.

I would do a different deal with Leipold. I would do a different deal with Bonderman. I would do a different deal with almost any other owner in the league.

I would not do a deal with Meruelo, because I know that he won't pay his taxes on time, he won't pay anything that he promises on time, etc. And, whatever the deal is, he is going to negotiate forever about it, looking for every angle to get more more money out of my city. And, I simply wouldn't do that.

 

[MNNumbers]

So take out #1, as that's a non-starter and would always be on the city, and following from that the words "some of the clean up, and" from #3. Now does it get built?

It doesn't. Unless there is a different owner, and then I would negotiate completely differently. It's not the deal. It's not the idea of public money. It's the present owner, who has completely destroyed any ability to trust him.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

No private business would ever agree to conditions not a single one. What suggesting is out what bloody irresponsible...

I don't understand what that sentence even means.

No idea why you such having issues with something that doesn't impact you.

POT.

KETTLE.

BLACK.

 

[Roadrage]

I think what happened with the unpaid taxes will give Tempe pause for thought but will ultimately not be much of a factor. Unless some even bigger crap hits the fan before approval, I personally think it will get approved with very little change to the rough outline of current costs, projections, and Meruelo's $200MM upfront money. I don't agree with it but I believe that's will happen in the next 6-9 months.

 

[MNNumbers]

I think what happened with the unpaid taxes will give Tempe pause for thought but will ultimately not be much of a factor. Unless some even bigger crap hits the fan before approval, I personally think it will get approved with very little change to the rough outline of current costs, projections, and Meruelo's $200MM upfront money. I don't agree with it but I believe that's will happen in the next 6-9 months.

I agree with this. My earlier rant describes my own feelings. I wouldn't make a deal with Meruelo. I would with almost any other owner. But I do think that Tempe has swallowed the Kool Aid, and the arena will happen.

What happens in the 4 years in the middle? Not Glendale.

 

[TheLegend]

What is your issue? Good god... IF the city did that to every single business in the country. No one would ever come there, they'll just go somewhere else and take all that tax revenue with them to another city.

The issue is cities getting taken for a ride.

As MNN pointed out, the league did just that in 2009-10, when they promised $25 million was just an insurance policy while they worked out an ownership deal and it would get worked out.

Hulsizer was going to have Glendale pay him $100 million for parking rites. Some the city already had.

Jamison was all set to go with a full lease agreement approved by the city and the NHL pulled it out from under them because they didn’t like the make up of his group (no majority stakeholder)

Those two years alone cost the city at least a decade’s worth of tax income to make up for it.

If you want to look at it another way. It would’ve cut their bond obligations by almost half today.

 

[TheLegend]

Just for giggles I peeked over at the Calgary thread and based on what the mayor has stated I’m finding myself on the city’s side.

I’ve got this feeling we’re going to see something similar here between Meruelo and Tempe and I would hope he’s paying attention to how bad the Flames ownership are making themselves look right now.

 

[Acesolid]

I agree that if the Tempe deal is signed and moving by the end of the season the league might bite the bullet and pay the Coyotes bills while they are playing in awful stop-gap temporary "arenas" for a few seasons...

But otherwise I cant imagine not pulling the plug with the Coyotes now homeless AND without shovels in the ground on a new arena.

I mean, the more I think about it the more I cant believe the NHL owners already bleeding money from COVID would agree to keep shoveling funds on the Coyotes with no clear plan forward.

 

[jonathan613]

I would not be surprised that if due to Meruelos reputation, that it might come down to that the NHL will need to cosign any plans so that if there were ever issues , the city of tempe would know they could sue the NHL directly for any damages should meruelo not act honorably. Even Bonderman and company were not completely trusted in seattle as the MOU with that city was such that the city could have cancelled the agreement had bonderman et. al failed to deliver an NHL expansion team. At least if i were tempe, that is what would make the difference between whether i would agree to a deal or not.

 

[mouser]

I would not be surprised that if due to Meruelos reputation, that it might come down to that the NHL will need to cosign any plans so that if there were ever issues , the city of tempe would know they could sue the NHL directly for any damages should meruelo not act honorably. Even Bonderman and company were not completely trusted in seattle as the MOU with that city was such that the city could have cancelled the agreement had bonderman et. al failed to deliver an NHL expansion team. At least if i were tempe, that is what would make the difference between whether i would agree to a deal or not.

No. Sports leagues don't operate that way.

Most billionaires, owning a sports team or not, are financially ruthless--that's usually a key contributor to how they became billionaires. Don't kid yourself that Muruelo has a reputation as a uniquely bad actor billionaire because you read a lot of negative comments piling on him in a HFB thread.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Heh, that's almost all of you. I've been wondering why for ages.

What does this mean? I honestly don't understand. Do you think I'm someone else, or that I somehow have an agenda here?

 

[aqib]

No. Sports leagues don't operate that way.

Most billionaires, owning a sports team or not, are financially ruthless--that's usually a key contributor to how they became billionaires. Don't kid yourself that Muruelo has a reputation as a uniquely bad actor billionaire because you read a lot of negative comments piling on him in a HFB thread.

The NHL cosigned the Oilers lease in Edmonton. As far as Muruelo goes, it's not threads on HF Boards that raise these questions. I don't recall stories like what was in the Athletic coming out about anyone else in sports. Nor has any other team been on the verge of getting kicked out of their venue mid-season.

 

[sh724]

What does this mean? I honestly don't understand. Do you think I'm someone else, or that I somehow have an agenda here?

He was pointing out the irony in your post....

Pretty much everyone in this thread, regardless of their opinion, have no direct ties to the Yotes, Glendale, Tempe, or even Arizona. +95% of us are speculating on something that has no impact on us and some, at times, seem like they are emotional invested in it to the point they are intentionally being dishonest in attempt to "score" meaningless points.

In reality everything said here is just speculation from people who have no say in any of the decisions being made and all of our opinions are meaningless.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

I think what happened with the unpaid taxes will give Tempe pause for thought but will ultimately not be much of a factor. Unless some even bigger crap hits the fan before approval, I personally think it will get approved with very little change to the rough outline of current costs, projections, and Meruelo's $200MM upfront money. I don't agree with it but I believe that's will happen in the next 6-9 months.

I guess that upfront money from Meruelo is the key and would assuage some potential fears about his financial commitment to this project. With $200 million invested in the project at least he some skin the game so to speak.

 

[sh724]

The NHL cosigned the Oilers lease in Edmonton. As far as Muruelo goes, it's not threads on HF Boards that raise these questions. I don't recall stories like what was in the Athletic coming out about anyone else in sports. Nor has any other team been on the verge of getting kicked out of their venue mid-season.

Kroenke literally just agreed to pay over $700MM for his unscrupulous actions involving the Rams. Just about all billionaires have a history of "unethical" practices. We, on HFB, go after Muruello bc it is relevant to us, that doesnt make him unique in anyway.

Do we normally see instances like this involving an NHL team? No, but nothing about the Yotes has been "normal". Muruello isnt a sports owner who happens to be a billionaire. He is a billionaire who happens to own a team.

The Yotes are also the only team in the league that truly pays "rent", the rest of them either own the arena or manage the arena. So you would never hear about any other team not paying rent as they are paying it to themselves.

 

[sh724]

I think what happened with the unpaid taxes will give Tempe pause for thought but will ultimately not be much of a factor. Unless some even bigger crap hits the fan before approval, I personally think it will get approved with very little change to the rough outline of current costs, projections, and Meruelo's $200MM upfront money. I don't agree with it but I believe that's will happen in the next 6-9 months.

I assume no one believed the "human error" press release, so we obviously all agree there is much more to the story. We do not know the real reason why Mureullo didnt pay. The concensus, on here, is that Muruello just chose not to bc he didnt want to pay. While that is one possibility we will never know if it truly is accurate.

Tempe will get more info on what actually happened then anyone on HFB. If Tempe is satisfied with whatever Mureullo tells them then it will have zero impact on the Tempe project. If Tempe isnt satisfied with it then it will impact the project. Either way its all just speculation from people who arent privy to the actual details.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

He was pointing out the irony in your post....

Pretty much everyone in this thread, regardless of their opinion, have no direct ties to the Yotes, Glendale, Tempe, or even Arizona. +95% of us are speculating on something that has no impact on us and some, at times, seem like they are emotional invested in it to the point they are intentionally being dishonest in attempt to "score" meaningless points.

In reality everything said here is just speculation from people who have no say in any of the decisions being made and all of our opinions are meaningless.

But he was responding to a poster who asked why he was so concerned about this when it had no direct impact on him...when said poster seemed awfully concerned about Quebec City's chances (or lack thereof) of acquiring a team...you know, when it doesn't impact him directly either.

 

[TheLegend]

I assume no one believed the "human error" press release, so we obviously all agree there is much more to the story. We do not know the real reason why Mureullo didnt pay. The concensus, on here, is that Muruello just chose not to bc he didnt want to pay. While that is one possibility we will never know if it truly is accurate.

Tempe will get more info on what actually happened then anyone on HFB. If Tempe is satisfied with whatever Mureullo tells them then it will have zero impact on the Tempe project. If Tempe isnt satisfied with it then it will impact the project. Either way its all just speculation from people who arent privy to the actual details.

“Human error” was the phase chosen because:

1) Obviously one or more humans dropped the ball.

2) It doesn’t single out any of said humans involved, opening any party up to potential liability.

People are free to interpret and speculate all they want, but in the end it’s a true statement.

 

[aqib]

Kroenke literally just agreed to pay over $700MM for his unscrupulous actions involving the Rams. Just about all billionaires have a history of "unethical" practices. We, on HFB, go after Muruello bc it is relevant to us, that doesnt make him unique in anyway.

Do we normally see instances like this involving an NHL team? No, but nothing about the Yotes has been "normal". Muruello isnt a sports owner who happens to be a billionaire. He is a billionaire who happens to own a team.

The Yotes are also the only team in the league that truly pays "rent", the rest of them either own the arena or manage the arena. So you would never hear about any other team not paying rent as they are paying it to themselves.

Yes and Jimmy Haslam with the Browns had to pay out a settlement with his truck stop company shorting truckers on rebates. Once that came to light they paid everyone what was owed, legal expenses, and plus a 6% penalty.

Lots of businesses do unethical stuff but this is next level. First they not only didn't pay their bills and then dared their suppietd to either sue or accept a lower payment. After all the publicity around that they STILL didn't pay their freaking taxes and rent. Literally no one does that. Name me the last team in any major league sport that was delinquent on their rent and taxes to the point that it made the news.

While most US based teams do manage their arenas the ownership is usually with the city (hence to property taxes) so their usually is some token rent. If they own the arena they have property taxes. Either way there is a bill to be paid. Your landlord and government is not the bill you mess around with. This simply does not happen elsewhere.

 

[aqib]

For all those saying Glendale is stupid for trying to pay down their arena debt without the Coyotes according to this article the Coyotes only generate 12K per game day in taxes. It's too bad Glendale didn't do this research before doing the deal with Ice Arizona The Arizona Coyotes and Their Long Journey to Nowhere

 

[TheGreenTBer]

He was pointing out the irony in your post....

Pretty much everyone in this thread, regardless of their opinion, have no direct ties to the Yotes, Glendale, Tempe, or even Arizona. +95% of us are speculating on something that has no impact on us and some, at times, seem like they are emotional invested in it to the point they are intentionally being dishonest in attempt to "score" meaningless points.

In reality everything said here is just speculation from people who have no say in any of the decisions being made and all of our opinions are meaningless.

Fair enough.

 

[TheLegend]

Yes and Jimmy Haslam with the Browns had to pay out a settlement with his truck stop company shorting truckers on rebates. Once that came to light they paid everyone what was owed, legal expenses, and plus a 6% penalty.

Lots of businesses do unethical stuff but this is next level. First they not only didn't pay their bills and then dared their suppietd to either sue or accept a lower payment. After all the publicity around that they STILL didn't pay their freaking taxes and rent. Literally no one does that. Name me the last team in any major league sport that was delinquent on their rent and taxes to the point that it made the news.

While most US based teams do manage their arenas the ownership is usually with the city (hence to property taxes) so their usually is some token rent. If they own the arena they have property taxes. Either way there is a bill to be paid. Your landlord and government is not the bill you mess around with. This simply does not happen elsewhere.

This is not “next level stuff”

It…. happens…. more… often….. than….. people…. are….. willing….. to…… admit.

Is it right? No.

Is it often used as fodder for someone’s personal narrative? You bet your ass.

 

[TheLegend]

For all those saying Glendale is stupid for trying to pay down their arena debt without the Coyotes according to this article the Coyotes only generate 12K per game day in taxes. It's too bad Glendale didn't do this research before doing the deal with Ice Arizona The Arizona Coyotes and Their Long Journey to Nowhere

It’s a single piece of data based upon a consultants report that did not include the scenario of the Coyotes going across town and building a new arena.

People need to stop grasping at bits of data here and there and take a look at the bigger picture.

Shoalts picked his data just like everyone else does.

 

[GordonGraham]

Thats your take on it “Human error” was the phase chosen because:

1) Obviously one or more humans dropped the ball.

2) It doesn’t single out any of said humans involved, opening any party up to potential liability.

People are free to interpret and speculate all they want, but in the end it’s a true statement.

Thats your take on it while many are saying it was not an error and done on purpose

 

[TheLegend]

Thats your take on it while many are saying it was not an error and done on purpose

Like I said in that post. People can interpret it how they want.

Whether it be an error in judgment. (which I’m leaning towards.)

Or error in negligence.

Or any other way you want to apply the term.

It’s still a true statement.