CXL - UPDATE 12/9 - Coyotes settle bills after unpaid taxes come to light

[aqib]

The article also says the Coyotes received one of 18 licenses granted and that state legislation authorizes 20 licenses. So here is the crux of my question. Yes there is a lot of demand for sports betting we all agree with that. However, will there be enough demand long-term to sustain 18-20 sports books in Arizona.

The article goes on to say "Around the launch of sports betting in Arizona, executives from the Diamondbacks and Phoenix Suns told the Business Journal that they didn’t expect to make very much money from the actual sports betting. Instead, they said the introduction of the product to a team’s portfolio creates new sponsorship and advertising opportunities, which could be lucrative for teams."

So yeah the more you peel back the onion here the more dubious this proposition is.

 

[TheLegend]

However...Meruelo may have a sportsbook license...but he has yet to obtain a sportsbook partner...and is losing out on all of this revenue...

Oh???

Wonder what took so long...as a third of the season is over...

Ever tried creating your own gaming entity from scratch??

 

[Llama19]

Sports betting is exploding in Arizona, and the public is getting screwed. Anyone care?

To quote:

"Sports betting is exploding in Arizona, but don’t get too excited because only a handful of already rich folks are pocketing most of the money that, predictably, gamblers lost.

The sporting “bets” mechanism is a complicated web designed precisely to get sports fans hooked on gambling while a few operators enjoy most of the riches.

Almost nothing or very little is going to Arizona state coffers to fund residents’ needs.

“This is exactly why I voted against expanding gambling. The public got screwed,” [Republican state Sen. Michele] Ugenti-Rita, who is running for secretary of state, said on Twitter.

“They lost $32M & the state received nothing. The real winners are the gluttonous sports teams that leach off their fans. The rich getting richer will be legacy of @dougducey $$$,” she said."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/elviadiaz/2022/01/05/arizona-sports-betting-exploding-but-public-getting-screwed/9095628002/

 

[TheLegend]

Sports betting is exploding in Arizona, and the public is getting screwed. Anyone care?

To quote:

"Sports betting is exploding in Arizona, but don’t get too excited because only a handful of already rich folks are pocketing most of the money that, predictably, gamblers lost.

The sporting “bets” mechanism is a complicated web designed precisely to get sports fans hooked on gambling while a few operators enjoy most of the riches.

Almost nothing or very little is going to Arizona state coffers to fund residents’ needs.

“This is exactly why I voted against expanding gambling. The public got screwed,” [Republican state Sen. Michele] Ugenti-Rita, who is running for secretary of state, said on Twitter.

“They lost $32M & the state received nothing. The real winners are the gluttonous sports teams that leach off their fans. The rich getting richer will be legacy of @dougducey $$$,” she said."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/elviadiaz/2022/01/05/arizona-sports-betting-exploding-but-public-getting-screwed/9095628002/

Meh.... Ugenti-Rita is scrambling to be significant and needs a drum to beat.

Note the omission of the equal number of gaming tribes who have the same licenses.

 

[Ernie]

Pretty obvious that with 20 licenses, no individual license is going to be worth that much when it comes to online betting. I think everyone here can agree on that.

Is SaharaBets a serious venture? I guess we'll find out on Jan 12, at this point all that exists is a landing page. It costs a lot of money to build a digital betting platform from scratch, and the president was hired only 2 months ago.

There is no way that there has been enough time to build a full featured betting app, so you can expect they are licensing software from somewhere or launching a very barebones product. My bet would be the former.

The real money, as has been discussed, would be an in-person sports bar experience and integrated betting in a new arena.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Sports betting is exploding in Arizona, and the public is getting screwed. Anyone care?

Have you been marching up and down The Strip your whole adult life trying to get sports betting halted? If not, why not? How is this one different?

 

[sh724]

Have you been marching up and down The Strip your whole adult life trying to get sports betting halted? If not, why not? How is this one different?

umm you do realize what you quoted is the headline of the article and not the words of the person you are quoting...

 

[sh724]

We all know its a big business but doesn't mean everyone that enters the business is going to make it. Cell phones are a big business but when is the last time you saw a Palm phone? Or made a call on Alltel?

The bottom line is every scenario in which the Coyotes survive in Arizona is predicated on them being kept afloat by something else (other events at the arena, surrounding development, or sportsbook). Each one has a hole in it and yes people have pointed to the sportsbook license as something that would mitigate the losses from the Coyotes. My point is simply that there maybe too much competition for that to work out for the Coyotes.

What NHL teams are actually profitable, on paper, based solely on the teams operations? I would bet (ha) its less than 10 probably less than 5.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

umm you do realize what you quoted is the headline of the article and not the words of the person you are quoting...

I absolutely do. The irony is, it sounds exactly like something the OP would say.

 

[Ernie]

Have you been marching up and down The Strip your whole adult life trying to get sports betting halted? If not, why not? How is this one different?

Why do you get triggered by this thread on a regular basis but keep coming back?

umm you do realize what you quoted is the headline of the article and not the words of the person you are quoting...

I absolutely do. The irony is, it sounds exactly like something the OP would say.

lol nice cover, totally believable.

 

[TheLegend]

umm you do realize what you quoted is the headline of the article and not the words of the person you are quoting...

Do you realize he’s referring to the entire article and not the choice quotes??

 

[TheLegend]

Why do you get triggered by this thread on a regular basis but keep coming back?

One thing he is not is triggered, but good try.

lol nice cover, totally believable.

You still don’t get most Coyotes fans don’t care what people from other parts of the hemisphere (and who aren’t affected) actually think.

 

[sh724]

I absolutely do. The irony is, it sounds exactly like something the OP would say.

That actually makes you looks worse. Before it was just a simple mistake. Now you are saying you intentionally went out of your way to make it personal...

Do you realize he’s referring to the entire article and not the choice quotes??

What was quoted is literally the title of the article. There was no opining on the article of the parts that were quoted. He didnt mention anything in the article just used the title of the article to question the poster and not the content posted. But back to the topic at hand...


Muerello's interest in operating the sports book is likely not intended to offset any Yotes losses, but rather just an additional income stream that is not directly tied to the team. NCAA loves new arenas, ff he can lure additional betting events to the arena the license becomes that much more profitable especially if there is an in person place to bet as part of the development.

None of the Yotes situation is as black and white as some people make it seem. Reality is its 99% grey area. We will never be privy to any inside information so we dont know what Muerello plans to do with the license. He could funnel money from the casinos to the team under the guise of marketing to lower tax able income of the casinos while offsetting some of the Yotes losses.

When you own multiple businsses in different sectors there is plenty of legal ways to move money between the entities to make the whole operation more profitable. Muerello didnt become wealthy by accident and he didnt buy the Yotes without knowing their financials. He obviously has a plan that he is working on. Whether that plan works out or not is unknown.

 

[Ernie]

One thing he is not is triggered, but good try.

You still don’t get most Coyotes fans don’t care what people from other parts of the hemisphere (and who aren’t affected) actually think.

And yet you both have spent numerous hours of your life on this forum complaining about what other people think.

Sure, y'all are not triggered. Mmmhmmm.

That actually makes you looks worse. Before it was just a simple mistake. Now you are saying you intentionally went out of your way to make it personal...

This is so ridiculous, I mean, just own up to it, it's not that hard.

 

[TheLegend]

That actually makes you looks worse. Before it was just a simple mistake. Now you are saying you intentionally went out of your way to make it personal...



What was quoted is literally the title of the article. There was no opining on the article of the parts that were quoted. He didnt mention anything in the article just used the title of the article to question the poster and not the content posted. But back to the topic at hand...


Muerello's interest in operating the sports book is likely not intended to offset any Yotes losses, but rather just an additional income stream that is not directly tied to the team. NCAA loves new arenas, ff he can lure additional betting events to the arena the license becomes that much more profitable especially if there is an in person place to bet as part of the development.

None of the Yotes situation is as black and white as some people make it seem. Reality is its 99% grey area. We will never be privy to any inside information so we dont know what Muerello plans to do with the license. He could funnel money from the casinos to the team under the guise of marketing to lower tax able income of the casinos while offsetting some of the Yotes losses.

When you own multiple businsses in different sectors there is plenty of legal ways to move money between the entities to make the whole operation more profitable. Muerello didnt become wealthy by accident and he didnt buy the Yotes without knowing their financials. He obviously has a plan that he is working on. Whether that plan works out or not is unknown.

The walk in part of his sports book operation will be part of his arena/entertainment proposal so it does play somewhat of a role. His plan is similar to what Steve Ellman wanted to do with Westgate and the Coyotes in 2003, treating them as a single entity from a financial standpoint.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

One thing he is not is triggered, but good try. .

But I apparently triggered someone enough to go create an account called "bad comment liker" to mash the like button....hmmmm wonder who that might be?

 

[aqib]

Have you been marching up and down The Strip your whole adult life trying to get sports betting halted? If not, why not? How is this one different?

Guy posts an article relevant to the issue we're discussing and gets bashed. Triggered easily much?

 

[Montrealer]

I don't think the name calling helps anything.

Coyotes fans are understandably sensitive and as an Expos fan I get that. It doesn't help when some people show up randomly to say hockey will never work in a warm climate (demonstrably false).

On the other hand, this is the Business forum and this is one of the most interesting business sagas in pro sports, let alone hockey. That easily explains the interest from out-of-region people like myself, without adding on any baggage about wishing ill on the Phoenix metro area.

Everyone take a breath.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Guy posts an article relevant to the issue we're discussing and gets bashed.

Was it though? Or is it an opportunity to post an op-ed that matches his view about the subject? (Before the Coyotes sports book even goes live) or just any view being negative about something involving the Coyotes? Which happens with alarming frequency with said guy, if you've been paying attention.

 

[MNNumbers]

I've been here a long time, and I think it's fair to say that everyone who posts here has some interest in the business aspects of things - so we all have that in common.

I also think that a decreasing number just hate the idea of the team being in Phoenix, because they think the market has proven impossible for hockey, and most of their thoughts align with that idea.

I also think that a few of us REALLY wish there was a team somewhere else (usually QC, but uhlaw1979 would choose Houston), and so their ideas align with that idea.

And, a few of us are from the Phoenix area, and love having 'our own team' and so their posts align with that idea.

All of us need to remember that nothing posted here will actually affect what happens - we don't have that kind of power.

Personally, I am of the opinion that:
---The NHL and IA tried very hard to take advantage of the city of Glendale - including Bettman's expression '"enhanced partnership" which meant "the city pays the losses of the team". That was a very bad look.
---Glendale has used their advantage since about 2015 very well, and they are still doing so.
---There is not enough money in the market to make both a team and a city happy with an arena arrangement, and therefore, the future viablility of the franchise in the Valley requires it to be connected to another development of some kind. This is exactly what Meruelo is doing, and it is also what the Islanders did at Belmont, so it not a unique idea and does NOT express a fault with the Phoenix fans or market in any way.
---Meruelo is a dishonest businessman, and therefore, were I Tempe, I would not do a deal unless Meruelo wasn't getting any money from Tempe until the taxpayers were getting money from the development. And, I wouldn't leave myself as a city responsbile for anything. Meruelo would have to make it or break it on his own.

---There is a possibility of a relocation, but that depends on the Tempe RFP (all of us would agree I am sure).
---Just what would happen if a relo occured can be discussed at a future time, if it becomes clear that such will be necessary.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

You don't care about the business of Sports, none of you do.. you all hate the Coyotes and think that Arizona and Hockey don't belong together.

You have no right to tell people what they do or do not care about, nor do you have the right to tell people how to post here. Please spare us the victim complex.

Let's all make it clear: This is not the Coyotes team forum. If people with your viewpoint are allowed here than people with a different one should also technically be allowed. Many of the posters that have frequented and still frequent this board are not welcome on your team board, and you know what? That's OK. Every fanbase here (especially one that has been treated like dirt like Coyotes fans) deserves their own place, designed and moderated for and by fans of that team. But..again...this is NOT the Coyotes forum, and you should probably either accept that or avoid this forum for your own good.

As a suggestion, perhaps take your complaints up with HF staff if you don't like how this forum is run, maybe?

It's funny how we don't see similar post in The Flames threads about them relocating when we technically are ahead of getting a new arena built than Calgary is. lmao

For one, the Flames could indeed relocate. For two, the two situations and sagas are so extraordinarily different that it's borderline preposterous that you'd use the Flames as a comparison.

 

[aqib]

Was it though? Or is it an opportunity to post an op-ed that matches his view about the subject? (Before the Coyotes sports book even goes live) or just any view being negative about something involving the Coyotes? Which happens with alarming frequency with said guy, if you've been paying attention.

We're talking about sportsbooks in Arizona, he posted an editorial from an Arizona newspaper about sportsbooks. Its germane to the discussion we're having.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I've been here a long time, and I think it's fair to say that everyone who posts here has some interest in the business aspects of things - so we all have that in common.

I also think that a decreasing number just hate the idea of the team being in Phoenix, because they think the market has proven impossible for hockey, and most of their thoughts align with that idea.

I also think that a few of us REALLY wish there was a team somewhere else (usually QC, but uhlaw1979 would choose Houston), and so their ideas align with that idea.

And, a few of us are from the Phoenix area, and love having 'our own team' and so their posts align with that idea.

All of us need to remember that nothing posted here will actually affect what happens - we don't have that kind of power.

Personally, I am of the opinion that:
---The NHL and IA tried very hard to take advantage of the city of Glendale - including Bettman's expression '"enhanced partnership" which meant "the city pays the losses of the team". That was a very bad look.
---Glendale has used their advantage since about 2015 very well, and they are still doing so.
---There is not enough money in the market to make both a team and a city happy with an arena arrangement, and therefore, the future viablility of the franchise in the Valley requires it to be connected to another development of some kind. This is exactly what Meruelo is doing, and it is also what the Islanders did at Belmont, so it not a unique idea and does NOT express a fault with the Phoenix fans or market in any way.
---Meruelo is a dishonest businessman, and therefore, were I Tempe, I would not do a deal unless Meruelo wasn't getting any money from Tempe until the taxpayers were getting money from the development. And, I wouldn't leave myself as a city responsbile for anything. Meruelo would have to make it or break it on his own.

---There is a possibility of a relocation, but that depends on the Tempe RFP (all of us would agree I am sure).
---Just what would happen if a relo occured can be discussed at a future time, if it becomes clear that such will be necessary.

For me, the team staying or leaving is not particularly relevant, I just think this saga is absolutely fascinating. I don't like Meruelo and I don't like seeing guys like him come out ahead, but I also don't like seeing teams relocated.

I don't think the pro-Canadian snipers that occasionally visit this thread do any good whatsoever; I hate that stuff because it doesn't add anything positive to the conversation. Likewise, if a Coyotes fan is going to jump on literally every post that isn't waving a goddamn Meruelo pom-pom and accuse the poster of having an axe to grind, that doesn't add anything to the conversation either.

None of us on this board have any control in this situation. Taking shots at each other one way or another isn't helping.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

What NHL teams are actually profitable, on paper, based solely on the teams operations? I would bet (ha) its less than 10 probably less than 5.

I agree. Without massive TV/media deals, the league is heavily dependent on gate revenue and the profit margins are thin at best unless there are other factors involved. There are probably only a few teams that can really stand completely on their own without other sources of revenue IMO and that's nowhere near enough to create a major league.

 

[aqib]

I've been here a long time, and I think it's fair to say that everyone who posts here has some interest in the business aspects of things - so we all have that in common.

I also think that a decreasing number just hate the idea of the team being in Phoenix, because they think the market has proven impossible for hockey, and most of their thoughts align with that idea.

I also think that a few of us REALLY wish there was a team somewhere else (usually QC, but uhlaw1979 would choose Houston), and so their ideas align with that idea.

And, a few of us are from the Phoenix area, and love having 'our own team' and so their posts align with that idea.

All of us need to remember that nothing posted here will actually affect what happens - we don't have that kind of power.

I'll be 100% honest, yes I would like to see 2-3 more teams in Canada. (QC, Hamilton, and eventually another GTA team). I realize that Houston is probably the NHLs #1 choice for the next team, so to get another team in Canada we need Houston resolved. Now I don't have anything against Phoenix. I've only changed planes there and I think in my life I have met one person from there.

I get that Coyotes fans (however many there are) are tired of the relocation speculation and the comments from people who want to see teams in markets that currently don't have them (Admittedly many of those comments including those from myself are dripping with biting sarcasm). However, that's where we have to make a distinction between the Coyotes board and the Business board. If someone goes onto the Coyotes board and makes posts advocating for a move or saying the franchise isn't viable or Phoenix doesn't have real fans, that's straight up trolling. However, this is a business board and people that come here should expect to see different views on the market viability, strength of the fan base, etc.