OT: Covid-19 (Part 23) Takin' it to the street

[OnTheRun]

not necessarily.

what if it comes out that Chauvin and Floyd had run ins at the club and there was animosity between the two?

That could take this from 2nd degree/3rd degree right up to 1st degree premediated murder. Thats whats being floated right now by Crumb.

The context of their relationship, Chauvin's past, Floyd's past, can change the trajectory of this case.

That's a whole different discussion now. We went from Floyd's past is important because he wasn't a saint to what kind of charges Chauvin will have to face.

 

[cajmonkey]

You show your ignorance here. What you think is right isnt what BIPOC think is right. When youre arrested, you think "Gee, ill have to pay a fine.". When theyre arrested they think "Gee, I might die here." Getting in the police car just means theyre that more likely to be killed, trialed for something they didnt do or live through something like this.

Would you want to be put completely in the hands of your opressor ?

I'm not ignorant. I'm aware that some BIPOC believe that getting into a police car equals a death sentence, or a trial for a crime they didn't commit.

I believe that the way they were treating him should have led him to believe neither of those things were going to happen in this case, and there was no need to resist.



Should BIPOC always resist arrest? Should police forces never attempt to take a BIPOC suspect into custody? Should there be one part of the force that makes the arrest, and then a separate division to take the suspect to the jail, a division BIPOCs could trust completely? Seriously, if fear of being taken into custody is a thing, how do we deal with it? With less cases of police brutality, perhaps more trust will build but what do we do until then? I'm open to suggestions concerning how to prevent resisting arrest, as resisting arrest seems to be the number one thing that escalates the situation in many cases.

 

[THE HOFF]

I'm not ignorant. I'm aware that some BIPOC believe that getting into a police car equals a death sentence, or a trial for a crime they didn't commit.

I believe that the way they were treating him should have led him to believe neither of those things were going to happen in this case, and there was no need to resist.



Should BIPOC always resist arrest? Should police forces never attempt to take a BIPOC suspect into custody? Should there be one part of the force that makes the arrest, and then a separate division to take the suspect to the jail, a division BIPOCs could trust completely? Seriously, if fear of being taken into custody is a thing, how do we deal with it? With less cases of police brutality, perhaps more trust will build but what do we do until then? I'm open to suggestions concerning how to prevent resisting arrest, as resisting arrest seems to be the number one thing that escalates the situation in many cases.

Yeah, let's not talk about how or why it leads up to you getting arrested in the first place. smart. Techniques like stop and frisk were used not too long ago. I think you need to go do some reading, it might affect your worldview.

 

[scrubadam]

That's a whole different discussion now. We went from Floyd's past is important because he wasn't a saint to what kind of charges Chauvin will have to face.

Well I think both peoples past are relevant, and thats why both lawyers are going to use the past to try and get the results they want.

Its going to be up to Chauvings lawyer to convince a Jury that Floyds past had anything to do with what happened, and it will be up to the prosecution to use Chauvin's past to secure the 2nd degree murder charges, and possibly up them to 1st degree (not sure if thats possible in the US court system).

 

[cajmonkey]

My problem with your approach is that you don't base yourself on the facts available. You try to create a series of hypothesis that rely on things you don't know that are completely irrelevant to the point everyone else is making. Its okay if your reasoning isn't based on facts, but don't act surprised when you are called on it.

I was literally stating facts of the case, concerning why the police were called. Same with Floyd's priors, same with Chauvin's complaint history. If I expand to any conjecture or hypothesis, I painstakingly take the time to explain I'm doing so and why in most cases.

Forgive me for not parroting specifically accepted statements.

 

[cphabs]

You know what really pisses me off? I have fat/large head, and these f***ing face masks take away all of my peripheral vision and my depth perception! I shit you not! I was trying to unload my grocery cart yesterday while wearing a mask. I kept on bumping into the safety plexiglass walls, on my left and right, while trying to gain focus on an item in the cart!
My wife saved me LOL

 

[cajmonkey]

Yeah, let's not talk about how or why it leads up to you getting arrested in the first place. smart.

I'll gladly discuss that, so I don't know why you phrase it that way. It's almost as if you're making moral judgements and assumptions based on faulty perception.

 

[THE HOFF]

I was literally stating facts of the case, concerning why the police were called. Same with Floyd's priors, same with Chauvin's complaint history. If I expand to any conjecture or hypothesis, I painstakingly take the time to explain I'm doing so and why in most cases.

Forgive me for not parroting specifically accepted statements.

which statement is that? that police brutality is unacceptable ? I'm sorry that we reached a general consensus while you were in the washrooms.

 

[Tim Wallach]

You know what really pisses me off? I have fat/large head, and these f***ing face masks take away all of my peripheral vision and my depth perception! I shit you not! I was trying to unload my grocery cart yesterday while wearing a mask. I kept on bumping into the safety plexiglass walls, on my left and right, while trying to gain focus on an item in the cart!
My wife saved me LOL

We should start a support group. Massive Heads Anonymous. The mask is problematic for me too, but I'm taking one for the team.

 

[THE HOFF]

I'll gladly discuss that, so I don't know why you phrase it that way. It's almost as if you're making moral judgements and assumptions based on faulty perception.

Since you want to know all about the psychological aspects of the debate, this is called projection.

 

[cajmonkey]

which statement is that? that police brutality is unacceptable ? I'm sorry that we reached a general consensus while you were in the washrooms.

I agree with that consensus. Should we all just sit here repeating it over and over or are we allowed to discuss other aspects of what occurred?

 

[groovejuice]

Police in the US could stand to learn something from their counterparts in Canada about pulling over people of colour.

 

[cajmonkey]

Since you want to know all about the psychological aspects of the debate, this is called projection.

So then why, specifically, did you say "Yeah, let's not talk about how or why it leads up to you getting arrested in the first place. smart." without knowing whether or not I'm willing to discuss the matter?

How would you describe it, if not "moral judgements and assumptions based on faulty perception."?

 

[cphabs]

We should start a support group. Massive Heads Anonymous. The mask is problematic for me too, but I'm taking one for the team.

Sorry, thought this was the COVID-19 thread. Another thing, Massive Heads Anonymous, MHA as we like to call it, has been around for decades!

 

[Kriss E]

I'm not ignorant. I'm aware that some BIPOC believe that getting into a police car equals a death sentence, or a trial for a crime they didn't commit.

Being aware doesn't mean you can psychologically set yourself in their shoes to truly understand what their feeling.

I believe that the way they were treating him should have led him to believe neither of those things were going to happen in this case, and there was no need to resist.

Oh, well, case in point, exactly what I just mentioned.
There's been documentaries about this where attorneys mention, if you get into the cops car, it's game over. From there it's a very high chance of a domino effect where your chances of coming out of this unaffected is minimal.

Should BIPOC always resist arrest? Should police forces never attempt to take a BIPOC suspect into custody? Should there be one part of the force that makes the arrest, and then a separate division to take the suspect to the jail, a division BIPOCs could trust completely? Seriously, if fear of being taken into custody is a thing, how do we deal with it? With less cases of police brutality, perhaps more trust will build but what do we do until then? I'm open to suggestions concerning how to prevent resisting arrest, as resisting arrest seems to be the number one thing that escalates the situation in many cases.

Never? No. When there is an actual serious crime committed, ya. When it's a petty unarmed one....absolutely not.
If I steal a pack of gum from couche-tard, do I really need to be arrested? Like...use some common sense. Even if I am resisting, there's a good reason for not wanting to go down to a police station because I took a pack of trident. Why not ask why I did it in the first place? Just have a freaking conversation. Can we start acting like we're all human beings??
A fake 20$ bill should never lead to a murder, it's as simple as that.

 

[cphabs]

My attempt at humor has failed...

 

[cajmonkey]

That's a She wouldn't have been raped if she dressed accordingly kind of reasoning and it's wrong.

Almost missed this.

Anyone reasoning that rape is deserved in cases where someone dressed provocatively, is wrong.
Anyone reasoning that dress can affect perception and lead to different treatment in general, is correct.
Anyone reasoning that people are more likely to be raped by dressing provocatively, is wrong.

Wearing clothing is a passive act however, and should not be compared to actively picking a fight with anyone, let alone law enforcement.

 

[THE HOFF]

I agree with that consensus. Should we all just sit here repeating it over and over or are we allowed to discuss other aspects of what occurred?

what is there to discuss ? at one point you can't excuse everything. I mean if it comes out that Chauvin got bullied is school, will it make more sense to you? If floyd told him he was going to kill his dog, will it change anything? WE pay the police force to hold the moral high ground in those situations and break the cycle of hate, not create it. Of course you can make excuses for everything, but the buck needs to stop somewhere. Resisting an arrest doesn't lead you to take punches or die, it doesn't work like that. There are no logical narratives that would shift the blame to the victim. What if the person is mentally ill ? drunk? depressed? hit them harder ?

Let's take the example of Allan Adam, These cops have pepper spray, tie wraps, tools available to them to deal with situations that could go south. He punched that man because he wanted to, not because it was necessary. The root of the problem is that the RCMP came out and said after the video that it didn't picture officers using excessive force. So my point is, I guess we are not enough people ''parotting consensus'' for things to change. And by providing context like you do, you open the door to the kind of thinking that leads the RCMP to conclude that there is nothing to see here. There is a greater good to be reached for when situations like this present themselves, and by shifting part of the blame you contribute to prevent change, not create it. There will be no reforms at all if you don't display your outrage, so don't see yourself as someone above all those people taking it to the streets. Without them, the conversation you are trying to have is pointless.

 

[THE HOFF]

So then why, specifically, did you say "Yeah, let's not talk about how or why it leads up to you getting arrested in the first place. smart." without knowing whether or not I'm willing to discuss the matter?

How would you describe it, if not "moral judgements and assumptions based on faulty perception."?

Because you made the dumb and ignorant statement of saying the main cause of police brutality is people resisting their arrests. Which speaks about the wealth of your hindsight.

 

[cajmonkey]

Being aware doesn't mean you can psychologically set yourself in their shoes to truly understand what their feeling.

Oh, well, case in point, exactly what I just mentioned.
There's been documentaries about this where attorneys mention, if you get into the cops car, it's game over. From there it's a very high chance of a domino effect where your chances of coming out of this unaffected is minimal.

Never? No. When there is an actual serious crime committed, ya. When it's a petty unarmed one....absolutely not.
If I steal a pack of gum from couche-tard, do I really need to be arrested? Like...use some common sense. Even if I am resisting, there's a good reason for not wanting to go down to a police station because I took a pack of trident. Why not ask why I did it in the first place? Just have a freaking conversation. Can we start acting like we're all human beings??
A fake 20$ bill should never lead to a murder, it's as simple as that.

I believe they did have a conversation.

That said, what do we do with thieves that knowingly steal a pack of gum? How about a beer? A bottle of wine? 5 bottles of wine? I'm all for giving someone a chance to show humility or repent, so let's say a petty thief is let go with a warning after a conversation. If he is caught doing it again, is it another warning? How many times should one be able to steal a simple pack of gum before being arrested for real?

 

[cajmonkey]

Because you made the dumb and ignorant statement of saying the main cause of police brutality is people resisting their arrests. Which speaks about the wealth of your hindsight.

I think I said that from what I've seen, resisting arrest is the main reason, or one of the main reasons, that situations escalate. Feel free to quote the post itself so we can discuss it properly, as opposed to your take on it.

I've never seen a case where resisting arrest de-escalated the situation.

 

[cajmonkey]

Good luck, have you seen the full report for Breonna Taylor's murder?

No.

But by all means, post any information or report concerning it, but only if you're willing to discuss the matter. Don't post it and then get upset if I point out something I notice in the report and wish to discuss it.

 

[Kriss E]

I believe they did have a conversation.

That said, what do we do with thieves that knowingly steal a pack of gum? How about a beer? A bottle of wine? 5 bottles of wine? I'm all for giving someone a chance to show humility or repent, so let's say a petty thief is let go with a warning after a conversation. If he is caught doing it again, is it another warning? How many times should one be able to steal a simple pack of gum before being arrested for real?

We're not going to solve police reform on a HF forum over a few posts mate. The point is there are massive issues with how police is trained and how they react to stressful situations.
That needs to be the focus. Police reform across the board should be the major talking point right now.

Joe Rogan was discussing this on his podcast. He was sharing what his Captain friend in the military told him. From the military standpoint, when you are dead smack in the middle of the war, soldiers are on a bit of a free ride because there are priority target missions with high probability of collateral damage. Once those are completed, soldiers are told no more collateral, which means they have to take on more risks to get their mission done. His Captain friend point was, if soldiers can take on more risk by going out of their way to keep strangers from another country they're at war with safe, then it makes no f***ing sense how police responds towards their own citizens.

The difference?..Military goes through extensive training programs. Cops don't.

 

[cajmonkey]

Because you made the dumb and ignorant statement of saying the main cause of police brutality is people resisting their arrests. Which speaks about the wealth of your hindsight.

So you assumed I wouldn't want to discuss the matter, as I believe that resisting arrest almost always escalates the situation?

|Ok, I'm willing to forget the tone of the statement, and will just say that you wrongly assumed I wouldn't want to discuss the matter.

 

[cajmonkey]

We're not going to solve police reform on a HF forum over a few posts mate. The point is there are massive issues with how police is trained and how they react to stressful situations.
That needs to be the focus. Police reform across the board should be the major talking point right now.

Joe Rogan was discussing this on his podcast. He was sharing what his Captain friend in the military told him. From the military standpoint, when you are dead smack in the middle of the war, soldiers are on a bit of a free ride because there are priority target missions with high probability of collateral damage. Once those are completed, soldiers are told no more collateral, which means they have to take on more risks to get their mission done. His Captain friend point was, if soldiers can take on more risk by going out of their way to keep strangers from another country they're at war with safe, then it makes no f***ing sense how police responds towards their own citizens.

The difference?..Military goes through extensive training programs. Cops don't.

Who said we're going to solve police reform on a HF forum over a few posts? I certainly didn't. I just feel that if we're discussing the matter, nothing I've said should be considered out of bounds in any discussion.

I think police reform should be and is the major talking point. That doesn't mean some of can't discuss other aspects of the situation.


You can discuss police training, and comparisons with military training. I may or may not jump in and share my thoughts. I welcome any conversation in general.


[edit]

If you care to address how many packs of gum can be stolen, or how many warnings given to a specific person before arrest, that would be great. Because even though "it's only a pack of gum", you can't just let people steal all the gum in a dep over and over. Eventually something must be done to change the behavior.