OT: Covid-19 (Part 23) Takin' it to the street

[cajmonkey]

'I imagine'

We're talking about a man's life here. Besides, all four officers were actively engaging with Floyd while Thao watched. I sincerely doubt that they were able to pull up any past offenses during the interaction and even if they did, their handling of his person was extreme by any realistic standard. He was submissive. He wasn't a threat. He was pleading for help. He was murded in response to his pleas. I'm sick of that crap and generalizations are worthy here - anyone who doesn't see this is part of the problem and need to think long and hard about one, their critical thinking skills and second, their moral sense.

Actively engaging with Floyd as he sat with his back against the wall of the store, before they even attempted to bring him to the vehicle?

 

[cajmonkey]

'I imagine'

We're talking about a man's life here. Besides, all four officers were actively engaging with Floyd while Thao watched. I sincerely doubt that they were able to pull up any past offenses during the interaction and even if they did, their handling of his person was extreme by any realistic standard. He was submissive. He wasn't a threat. He was pleading for help. He was murded in response to his pleas. I'm sick of that crap and generalizations are worthy here - anyone who doesn't see this is part of the problem and need to think long and hard about one, their critical thinking skills and second, their moral sense.

Well, you need to go back and read how and why I'm even mentioning priors before passing any moral judgement. Not that I care how you feel about me, only so that you might understand that we are apparently discussing two separate things.

 

[Treb]

I had an Asian mother in law. She was really racist towards other Asians, African Americans and Hispanic people. She was embarrassing at times, one time we were on a trip to NJ and had her with us and the hotel included breakfast and I noticed she got a lot of breakfast and then she rolled food into napkins and stole from the hotel. I told her in the car that is she did that again she would would have to walk back to Virginia. After we split she went after me and insinuated to my ex sister in law that I molested my son because he used to sleep in my bed when he had nightmares. She can go and **%^&|\&$!!! herself!

Btw, is your Grandma OK now?

Thank you. My grandma is fine as far as I know from my mom. She argued she was taking her meds, but I haven't had a face to face with her yet (obviously).

First off, justify what? As stated approximately one dozen times already, I am not justifying the cop's actions. If you missed the pages of posts where I clearly state my stance and reasoning, it might be worth reading them so we don't start it all over.

As for getting info or knowing Floyd's record, I don't know whether or not they had access to his criminal background. I don't know how close Chauvin and Floyd were at the club, or if he had heard about Floyd's past.

I'm saying priors are relevant in any case as police will most likely treat a suspect differently if they do know of them. Just because someone on here says I shouldn't even bring up priors, doesn't mean they aren't relevant in what I'm discussing.

Don't worry, I understand that it's not relevant to most of you, as you are only concerned about the murder itself.

Like I said, I made what, how, and why I'm discussing this clear pages ago.

They were not aware of Floyd's past during the emergency call if we trust snopes. The fact prior events took place in Texas probably means they may not have been aware of him in Minnesota. I brought evidence to what you were searching for.

 

[cajmonkey]

They were not aware of Floyd's past during the emergency call if we trust snopes. The fact prior events took place in Texas probably means they may not have been aware of him in Minnesota. I brought evidence to what you were searching for.

Snopes does not say they were unaware, unless I missed something. Snopes said the police haven't answered the question as to whether they knew about his history. It also says "Charging documents, police records and other court filings that lay out Floyd’s criminal history are all publicly available via the Harris County District Clerk online database."

Why would they get a name and id if not to do some form of check?

 

[Adam Michaels]

Here is another example of discrimination:

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Actively engaging with Floyd as he sat with his back against the wall of the store, before they even attempted to bring him to the vehicle?

All of five minutes happened between the first two officers' arrival at the actual restaurant, crossing the street to his car, an initial struggle, Floyd being put in handcuffs, seated, and finally being told he was under arrest and taken to to the police car. One minute between him being seated and then told he was arrested. Your entire assumpting resting on (irrelevant) crimes done in another state. Get the f*** out of here with this bullshit.

 

[cajmonkey]

All of five minutes happened between the first two officers' arrival at the actual restaurant, crossing the street to his car, an initial struggle, Floyd being put in handcuffs, seated, and finally being told he was under arrest and taken to to the police car. One minute between him being seated and then told he was arrested. Your entire assumpting resting on (irrelevant) crimes done in another state. Get the f*** out of here with this bullshit.

You are acting as though I'm saying his priors justify his killing.

All I'm saying is that in any and all cases, the way I'm discussing it (which you should inform yourself on by reading my original posts), priors are relevant when breaking down what happened. The history of all parties in fact.

 

[Treb]

Snopes does not say they were unaware, unless I missed something. Snopes said the police haven't answered the question as to whether they knew about his history. It also says "Charging documents, police records and other court filings that lay out Floyd’s criminal history are all publicly available via the Harris County District Clerk online database."

Why would they get a name and id if not to do some form of check?

There is no indication Floyd was identified in the call to 911. Lane and Kueng also reacted as they were not aware or did not take it as a warning against him.

As Lane began speaking with Floyd, who was sitting in the driver’s seat of the vehicle, the officer pulled his gun out and instructed Floyd to show his hands. Floyd complied with the order, whereupon the officer holstered his gun. Then, Lane ordered Floyd out of the car and “put his hands on Floyd, and pulled him out of the car,” and handcuffed him, according to prosecutors. Then, charging documents state:

Mr. Floyd walked with Lane to the sidewalk and sat on the ground at Lane’s direction. When Mr. Floyd sat down he said “thank you man” and was calm. In a conversation that lasted just under two minutes, Lane asked Mr. Floyd for his name and identification. Lane asked Mr. Lloyd if he was “on anything” and noted there was foam at the edges of his mouth. Lane explained that he was arresting Mr. Floyd for passing counterfeit currency.
At 8:14 p.m., Officers Lane and Kueng stood Mr. Floyd up and attempted to walk Mr. Floyd to their squad car. As the officers tried to put Mr. Floyd in their squad car, Mr. Floyd stiffened up and fell to the ground. Mr. Floyd told the officers that he was not resisting but did not want to get in the back seat and was claustrophobic.​

It is only when Chauvin and Thao showed up that it began.

In any way, if any of this is true:

Officer Kueng held Mr. Floyd’s back and Officer Lane held his legs. Officer Chauvin placed his left knee in the area of Mr. Floyd’s head and neck. Mr. Floyd said, ‘I can’t breathe’ multiple times and repeatedly said, ‘Mama’ and ‘please,’ as well. At one point, Mr. Floyd said ‘I’m about to die.’

All of the implicated officers should be facing consequences.

 

[cajmonkey]

All of the implicated officers should be facing consequences.

Absolutely.


I've said so from the start. I'm not discussing whether what they did was right or wrong. I'm only saying that in the way I'm concerned with the bigger picture concerning how police interactions go down in general, and how to reduce escalations in general, no one can say there is something wrong with me for discussing a criminal's priors, nor is it irrelevant. But only if you understand what I'm actually discussing, as I laid out pages ago.

[edit]

See, you saying "It is only when Chauvin and Thao showed up that it began." clearly shows me we are not discussing the same thing at all. Not even close. You are talking about his murder, I am not.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Supremacist don't have to be of the race they are promoting. I remember a brown haired green eyed small guy promoting tall blond blue eyed guys.

Personal anecdote time. I dated an half Chinese/QC girl. Her Chinese mother would have categorically rejected a Chinese (apparently they are lazy?) or Black boyfriend. I was white and had a degree so she showered me with compliments when I was there and actually gifted 200$ twice to her daughter for our anniversaries to treat us even though she was calling me fat to her daughter when I was not there. The only reason I was acceptable to her eyes was the color of my skin (white) and my degree and she was NOT white herself.

Not saying you are a white supremacist, but saying "I'm not white" is not a defence.

Yes, you are right, I don't believe that "the white race is inherently superior to other races and that white people should have control over people of other races" and I'm not a leftist.


I posted a compilation from Reddit, of true stats from the FBI, but the guy who posted it had a Nazi username that I was not aware of. It changes litteraly nothing, because the stats were real. Does that make me a Nazi ? It's as stupid as saying people who drive a Volkswagen beetle are Nazi.

The president is the second coming of a brown haired green eyed small guy promoting tall blond blue eyed guys for many, even on this board.

Reading the comments of the text you posted clearly shows what kind of people are on this subreddit and they are not of the "every guy on the right" variety. They are the kind of guys that read Breitbart. It's even funnier when the guy posting it says he got it from r/conspiracy.

Conservative people. Like I said earlier, I did not double-check the news, but it brings some valid points to create discussion.


Why do you think that black people are hunted ? While in reality more white-armed and unarmed people are killed every year.


Are the majority of problems in the community a result of slavery and years of oppression ?

The fact that black people are proportionally more represented in prison and in crime statistics is a sign of "systemic racism" ?

Why only some black lives matters ?

Is defunding the police a solution ? When the huge majority of black citizens are against it ?

Fighting racism by a "positive" racism is the solution ? Affirmative action ? Uber ?

These questions are not directed at you, it's in general. I'm trying to discuss.

The text itself uses the same kind of distortions used by Shapiro in the video you posted earlier to twist the blame away. It also uses unconfirmed info such as the fact that the lady in Floyd 2007 arrest was pregnant.

Here is a good summary of Floyd previous offences and facts during the arrest by Snopes, although you might not consider it valid: EXCLUSIVE: Investigating George Floyd’s Criminal Record

Thank you for pointing out this fact to me. I have no problem believing this article, she was not pregnant, Floyd still pointed an arm on a woman. My opinion about him is still the same. You can focus on details and dismiss every point made by the writer.

I don't care about the media orientation, if the information is good and factual.

If you want to have a more neutral opinion, you need to read media from the left and the right, because both side twist the reality.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

You literally posted multiple white supremacist arguments and sources.

If you don't like it get some new f***ing material.

You did this to yourself. If you don't know how to vet sources, you shouldn't be engaged with seriously. That's without considering the actual substance of your posts, which was incredibly lacking.

Real stats is supremacist material ? Ben Shapiro responding to a video about "systemic racism" is supremacist material ?

Pointing out the crime rate and stats is supremasists now ?

I mean many of you think that president is a nazi, so... I'm not shocked.

 

[Treb]

Absolutely.


I've said so from the start. I'm not discussing whether what they did was right or wrong. I'm only saying that in the way I'm concerned with the bigger picture concerning how police interactions go down in general, and how to reduce escalations in general, no one can say there is something wrong with me for discussing a criminal's priors, nor is it irrelevant. But only if you understand what I'm actually discussing, as I laid out pages ago.

[edit]

See, you saying "It is only when Chauvin and Thao showed up that it began." clearly shows me we are not discussing the same thing at all. Not even close. You are talking about his murder, I am not.

Chauvin and Thao are most likely the only only one that would know Floyd history before entering the scene as the call to 911 wasn't clear and they came after Lane and Kueng. Therefore, at best it is an overeager testy cop doing a muscly arrest, more likely it is a cop doing a muscly arrest on a suspect with judiciary incident but no violent behavior against cops.

While he resisted getting into the car, AFAIK he never showed aggression toward the cops that would warrant a strong reaction. The worst that should have happened to him was a bump on the head while shoved into the car.

A criminal prior offence is not as important as his current behavior, which was non-violent.

 

[cajmonkey]

A criminal prior offence is not as important as his current behavior, which was non-violent.

I agree 100%




Just wondering, have you had a chance to go back and read all the posts, specifically where I explain what I'm discussing? This post doesn't explain everything, but it gives a basic idea of what I interested in.

I would say that police tend to act differently when arresting someone if they know he has priors, especially violent ones. They mean be less lenient if the suspect resists, they may be more on edge. How can it not matter?

I think the problem here is I'm looking at the case as something to study as a whole for philosophical purposes, you are looking at it in a different way, involving justice for the act.


In the way I'm currently looking at it, which I understand will be confusing, it doesn't even matter whether the cop gets capital punishment and is killed on the spot, or is let go completely, with a ticket to Disneyland courtesy of the judge himself. Whatever the result is, I will add the new information to the greater picture of the story, and then try to figure out how the judgement came to be.

[edit]

I'd also have an opinion concerning the judgement, with all moral reasoning included. But that thought process would be a separate discussion.

Again, I ALSO have personal feelings about what specifically occurred, but those are being kept separate right now so as not to muddy the waters of what I'm thinking about.

 

[Treb]

Yes, you are right, I don't believe that "the white race is inherently superior to other races and that white people should have control over people of other races" and I'm not a leftist.

Weird that you fell the need to specify.

I posted a compilation from Reddit, of true stats from the FBI, but the guy who posted it had a Nazi username that I was not aware of. It changes litteraly nothing, because the stats were real. Does that make me a Nazi ? It's as stupid as saying people who drive a Volkswagen beetle are Nazi.

The president is the second coming of a brown haired green eyed small guy promoting tall blond blue eyed guys for many, even on this board.



Conservative people. Like I said earlier, I did not double-check the news, but it brings some valid points to create discussion.

The question is more of how did you come into contact with those sources as a first source of information.

Thank you for pointing out this fact to me. I have no problem believing this article, she was not pregnant, Floyd still pointed an arm on a woman. My opinion about him is still the same. You can focus on details and dismiss every point made by the writer.

I don't care about the media orientation, if the information is good and factual.

If you want to have a more neutral opinion, you need to read media from the left and the right, because both side twist the reality.

Problem is that often far-right portrays itself as "right" more than far-left is portrays itself as "left". Hell, centrist (US democrats) are portrayed as left/far-left by the far-right.

 

[Treb]

I agree 100%




Just wondering, have you had a chance to go back and read all the posts, specifically where I explain what I'm discussing? This post doesn't explain everything, but it gives a basic idea of what I interested in.



Again, I ALSO have personal feelings about what specifically occurred, but those are being kept separate right now so as not to muddy the waters of what I'm thinking about.

Cop basing their leniency on previous events is a problem. They should always base themselves on the current situation unless previous situations urge cautions on unknown factors in the current situation which was not the case here.

 

[cajmonkey]

Cop basing their leniency on previous events is a problem. They should always base themselves on the current situation unless previous situations urge cautions on unknown factors in the current situation which was not the case here.

I agree.

 

[HockeyAddict]

The fact that black people are proportionally more represented in prison and in crime statistics is a sign of "systemic racism" ?

These questions are not directed at you, it's in general. I'm trying to discuss.

I don't care about the media orientation, if the information is good and factual.

If you want to have a more neutral opinion, you need to read media from the left and the right, because both side twist the reality.

Commissioner of the RCMP admits systemic racism is still an issue in its organisation…
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/brenda-lucki-systemic-racism-rcmp-1.5610355

 

[ahmedou]

Shopping malls in the greater Montreal region to reopen on June 19

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Weird that you fell the need to specify.

I felt the need to specify in case it was not that obvious.

The question is more of how did you come into contact with those sources as a first source of information.

From the conservative Reddit.

Problem is that often far-right portrays itself as "right" more than far-left is portrays itself as "left". Hell, centrist (US democrats) are portrayed as left/far-left by the far-right.

I don't know, but democrats are on the left. It's a matter of perspective.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Commissioner of the RCMP admits systemic racism is still an issue in its organisation…
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/brenda-lucki-systemic-racism-rcmp-1.5610355

That's in Canada and "If it refers to an unconscious bias that exists and we definitely have that in the RCMP and we are not immune to it at all," Lucki said.

She appears to not even understand the definition.

What is Systemic Racism? [VIDEOS]

The definition is so wide and judging by it everything is because of systemic racism.

 

[Per Sjoblom]

Weird that you fell the need to specify.

I only had a beer but this made me laugh uncontrollably!

Skål tamefan!

 

[HockeyAddict]

That's in Canada and "If it refers to an unconscious bias that exists and we definitely have that in the RCMP and we are not immune to it at all," Lucki said.

She appears to not even understand the definition.

What is Systemic Racism? [VIDEOS]

The definition is so wide and judging by it everything is because of systemic racism.

"I did acknowledge that we, like others, have racism in our organization, but I did not say definitively that systemic racism exists in the RCMP," Lucki said in a media statement. "I should have.
As many have said, I do know that systemic racism is part of every institution, the RCMP included."

You asked for objective sources - that's the commissioner of the RCMP admitting they have issues including systemic racism.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

"I did acknowledge that we, like others, have racism in our organization, but I did not say definitively that systemic racism exists in the RCMP," Lucki said in a media statement. "I should have.
As many have said, I do know that systemic racism is part of every institution, the RCMP included."

You asked for objective sources - that's the commissioner of the RCMP admitting they have issues including systemic racism.

You are talking about days ago ? I was talking about USA... But let's talk about Canada.

She doesn't appear to know the definition. It's abstracts and it can mean anything. She can't even point out where is that "systemic racism".

If it's something like that, then I acknowledge that there is systemic racism.

There is a rule preventing them from hiring minorities ?

Minorities in the RCMP have less right than the white people ?

They have rules that say if you see a minority, you need to be rougher than with white people ?

 

[HockeyAddict]

You are talking about days ago ? I was talking about USA... But let's talk about Canada.

She doesn't appear to know the definition. It's abstracts and it can mean anything. She can't even point out where is that "systemic racism".

There is a rule preventing them from hiring minorities ?

Minorities in the RCMP have less right than the white people ?

They have rules that say if you see a minority, you need to be rougher than with white people ?

Kaperi, with all respect, there is social injustice in our communities and you (your attitude) are not a part of the solution. You can continue to play devil's advocate/contrarian but, ultimately, you haven't acknowledged there is even social injustice towards minorities... you don't want to see any changes? If so, what changes do you think would help?

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Kaperi, with all respect, there is social injustice in our communities and you (your attitude) are not a part of the solution. You can continue to play devil's advocate/contrarian but, ultimately, you haven't acknowledged there is even social injustice towards minorities... you don't want to see any changes? If so, what changes do you think would help?

I want to see changes, because of police brutality. I disagree with the fact that black people are killed by police officers, because they are black.

Change that would help ?

Better selection of cops: In order to be a cop, you need to be strong enough and in good shape.
Regular psychological tests, to help cops with mental illness problems and prevent a dramatic ending.
More/better formations, some cops appear not to know how to deal with people in crucial situations.
More/better training for real-time situations that happens often and can end tragically.

You can improve many things, it's far from perfect.