OT: COVID 19 - Continued

[Pens1566]

Emergency powers have never been limitless. I am not going to wade into specifics here, but courts have always weighed the need vs. tailoring the law as narrowly as possible to match that need. Overly broad uses always have been declared to be unlawful.

History has judged some decisions harshly in the hindsight of looking back, such as interring Japanese in WWII as just one example, but in every case it is up to the judge who hears the case to make that determination.

Right. It's a gray area, and depends on the specifics of the situation/case. It's neither "all rights are absolute" or "you can violate rights for anything".

 

[Clare2904]

Health Canada has approved the Pfizer vaccine. Expecting to start the stabbing in the next two weeks.

They also set out a plan to have the whole country done by this time next year.

 

[NMK11]

Emergency powers have never been limitless. I am not going to wade into specifics here, but courts have always weighed the need vs. tailoring the law as narrowly as possible to match that need. Overly broad uses always have been declared to be unlawful.

History has judged some decisions harshly in the hindsight of looking back, such as interring Japanese in WWII as just one example, but in every case it is up to the judge who hears the case to make that determination.

Fair, but emergency powers right now aren't limitless, we're seeing the effects of limited powers day to day, so that sort of doesn't mean a lot. Saying the government should be able to take products from a company by mandate (even when said companies are going to be offering the product to you anyway) is fine, but saying that the government is overstepping its bounds by regulating the actions of business during a public health crisis? That's directly contradictory. Particularly when it really hasn't been a broad inflexible stroke, governments are reacting and allowing more or less people to be inside based on the situation at hand, etc. We don't have complete lockdowns for months on end. Every location I'm aware of at least partially allowed indoor seating this summer when cases went down and hospitals freed up bed spaces.

And while I get what you say about hindsight, you picked pretty much the most extreme example there. Saying a restaurant can only serve takeout is a few orders of magnitude away from an internment camp based off your race, no?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Fair, but emergency powers right now aren't limitless, we're seeing the effects of limited powers day to day, so that sort of doesn't mean a lot. Saying the government should be able to take products from a company by mandate (even when said companies are going to be offering the product to you anyway) is fine, but saying that the government is overstepping its bounds by regulating the actions of business during a public health crisis? That's directly contradictory. Particularly when it really hasn't been a broad inflexible stroke, governments are reacting and allowing more or less people to be inside based on the situation at hand, etc. We don't have complete lockdowns for months on end. Every location I'm aware of at least partially allowed indoor seating this summer when cases went down and hospitals freed up bed spaces.

And while I get what you say about hindsight, you picked pretty much the most extreme example there. Saying a restaurant can only serve takeout is a few orders of magnitude away from an internment camp based off your race, no?

It's line drawing.

It is what I do every day.

I argue adamantly about the justice of my client's cause and there is another attorney on the other side who is just as passionate about 180 degrees the opposite opinion. And to make it even more fun there is an 'expert' on each side who is telling the judge the exact opposite things.

The marital home is worth $500,000. No it is not, it is only worth $100,000. The surgeon within a reasonable degree of medical certainty acted within the boundaries of what a reasonable physician in a similar case would act. No he didn't, what he did was outrageous!

And you have a judge hearing it all and needing to make a call if you can not come to an agreement beforehand. Which actually does happen 90% of the time.

It is far from a perfect system but it also has proven to be one of the best systems in the world. But it is a compromise and no one would claim otherwise.

 

[NMK11]

It's line drawing.

It is what I do every day.

I argue adamantly about the justice of my client's cause and there is another attorney on the other side who is just as passionate about 180 degrees the opposite opinion. And to make it even more fun there is an 'expert' on each side who is telling the judge the exact opposite things.

The marital home is worth $500,000. No it is not, it is only worth $100,000. The surgeon within a reasonable degree of medical certainty acted within the boundaries of what a reasonable physician in a similar case would act. No he didn't, what he did was outrageous!

And you have a judge hearing it all and needing to make a call if you can not come to an agreement beforehand. Which actually does happen 90% of the time.

It is far from a perfect system but it also has proven to be one of the best systems in the world. But it is a compromise and no one would claim otherwise.

It's sort of line drawing, agreed there. It just seems like a crooked line to me and I suspect, but obviously can't prove, that it's because forcing a company such as Pfizer to give up their product or resources doesn't affect most people while limiting in-person business at their local bar does. But I guess that's just human nature for a lot, to only care about what affects them directly. To me, that's hypocritical when both are being done for the same endpoint, which is how this whole chain got started.

Also, you mentioned that it's established that governments can interfere with companies production in times of crisis. Well, it's been established that governments can enforce lockdowns and restrictions in times of crisis as well, many places did it in 1918.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

It's sort of line drawing, agreed there. It just seems like a crooked line to me and I suspect, but obviously can't prove, that it's because forcing a company such as Pfizer to give up their product or resources doesn't affect most people while limiting in-person business at their local bar does. But I guess that's just human nature for a lot, to only care about what affects them directly. To me, that's hypocritical when both are being done for the same endpoint, which is how this whole chain got started.

Also, you mentioned that it's established that governments can interfere with companies production in times of crisis. Well, it's been established that governments can enforce lockdowns and restrictions in times of crisis as well, many places did it in 1918.

I don't think that we are disagreeing. I certainly see the issues. I just have zero clue how you can change it. And decisions can be appealed. A judge in LA just struck down the outdoor dining restrictions that Newsome enacted for the state as overly broad.

But the only national standards would be from the Supreme Court, and they hear very very few cases each year. People focus on that one court when most laws are handled in the Appellate and District Courts, and if the Supremes do not take the case they become the law.

It encourages forum shopping as well. You bring the case before a court that is friendly to what you want, and make sure that the Appellate Court is friendly too. It is why democrats often sued in California and the Ninth District. And Republicans now will begin suing the new administration in Texas and places like that.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

My girlfriend's mother just tested positive last night in the Nursing Home that she is in and began showing symptoms.

We are literally maybe three days away from a vaccine. To get Covid-19 now is beyond cruel.

 

[ColePens]

My girlfriend's mother just tested positive last night in the Nursing Home that she is in and began showing symptoms.

We are literally maybe three days away from a vaccine. To get Covid-19 now is beyond cruel.

Legit prayers. Dig deep through it hopefully for your gfs mother. Dig through and make it to that finish line.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

 

[Factorial]

More than a third of Americans live in areas where hospitals are running critically short of intensive care beds, federal data show, revealing a newly detailed picture of the nation’s hospital crisis during the deadliest week of the Covid-19 epidemic.

Hospitals serving more than 100 million Americans reported having fewer than 15 percent of intensive care beds still available as of last week, according to a Times analysis of data reported by hospitals and released by the Department of Health and Human Services.

Many areas are even worse off: One in 10 Americans — across a large swath of the Midwest, South and Southwest — lives in an area where intensive care beds are either completely full, or fewer than 5 percent of beds are available. At these levels, experts say maintaining existing standards of care for the sickest patients may be difficult or impossible.
“There’s only so much our frontline care can offer, particularly when you get to these really rural counties which are being hit hard by the pandemic right now,” said Beth Blauer, director of the Centers for Civic Impact at Johns Hopkins University.

Sharp increases in Covid-19 patients can overwhelm smaller hospitals, she said. “This disease progresses very quickly and can get very ugly very fast. When you don’t have that capacity, that means people will die.”

The new dataset, released on Monday, marks the first time the federal government has published detailed geographic information on Covid-19 patients in hospitals, something public health officials have long said would be crucial to responding to the epidemic and understanding its impact.

‘There’s No Place for Them to Go’: I.C.U. Beds Near Capacity Across U.S.

 

[Gurglesons]

‘There’s No Place for Them to Go’: I.C.U. Beds Near Capacity Across U.S.

I’d say I feel bad, but to be honest this is what most of them have done to themselves.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

That should be tomorrow.

 

[NMK11]

I still feel bad for them, but this is exactly where the idea of "I live in the middle of no where with no cases, I shouldn't have to do what they do in the cities" sort of falls apart. A lot of these places that are running out of beds are small or rural hospitals. And then where do they get transferred to? The cities.

You can't always lump people in the country with those in the city when combating this virus, but you also can't totally separate them, either. It's something in between.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, it's been a terribly kept secret that the state is going to shut down again on Friday. My dad told me that he's hearing murmurs of it on Monday, and I had a friend message me that his mom had to get an "essential worker" letter to have in her car today.

The really sad thing in all of this is how the government hasn't helped these businesses and people at all. I totally think things should be shut down right now to minimize the spread, but the government has to do something to help these people. But of course the debate is "open up to save the economy vs shut down to prevent the spread", when the right answer is "shut down while having the government actually help people" The government legitimately just gave everyone a check for $1200 and told them to f*** off, that's all they did

 

[Factorial]

Yeah, it's been a terribly kept secret that the state is going to shut down again on Friday. My dad told me that he's hearing murmurs of it on Monday, and I had a friend message me that his mom had to get an "essential worker" letter to have in her car today.

The really sad thing in all of this is how the government hasn't helped these businesses and people at all. I totally think things should be shut down right now to minimize the spread, but the government has to do something to help these people. But of course the debate is "open up to save the economy vs shut down to prevent the spread", when the right answer is "shut down while having the government actually help people" The government legitimately just gave everyone a check for $1200 and told them to f*** off, that's all they did

States can't print money so...

 

[Jacob]

States can't print money so...

There’s a mint in Philly.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

States can't print money so...

Yeah, in a situation like this, only the federal government can provide
economic security. The states can shut down, but they need federal support

 

[Empoleon8771]

States can't print money so...

Okay? I was talking about both state and federal there. Neither are doing enough for people impacted by the shutdowns.

 

[ColePens]

There’s a mint in Philly.

Just saw a commercial for commemorative gold coins. Just put my order in.

MINT IT PHILLY.

 

[ColePens]

Okay? I was talking about both state and federal there. Neither are doing enough for people impacted by the shutdowns.

Ammmmmmen. And if hospitals are under siege, I believe they had emergency need military operations if beds are needed. I would hope that's still the case.

But honestly that's the thing. If you have a plan, fine. It ends up just targeting small businesses who are busting their asses to accommodate guidelines. And just from the Allegheny stats I'll post again. 70.4% deaths come from nursing homes. I provided the survival/death rate but the only thing people will throw at you is cases.

The sad thing is, I can easily put my head down and ignore it all. We've been in a red lockdown from day 1 (everyone knows why. If you need to know about my father's condition, just PM me). I work from home regardless of covid/non. I have a full home gym and to be honest I don't like going out anyway. But watching tons of family and friends with businesses they put their heart, blood, guts, and soul into just piss off with no plan is sickening.

And what's even crazier is that the idea of force majeure clauses are built into leases to maybe help small businesses, but they actually don't hold legal ground. It is beyond madness. I don't even know why the f*** they exist is a PANDEMIC is not included in force majeure.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Just saw a commercial for commemorative gold coins. Just put my order in.

MINT IT PHILLY.

There actually is a Covid-19 commemorative coin. Costs $100.

As an aside this was a private company that did this, not affiliated with the White House or anyone else. But it is an example of only in America.

 

[ColePens]

There actually is a Covid-19 commemorative coin. Costs $100.

As an aside this was a private company that did this, not affiliated with the White House or anyone else. But it is an example of only in America.

Oh

My

GOD... I'm assuming a chess set is out there, too.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Oh

My

GOD... I'm assuming a chess set is out there, too.

Well, there is a $235 Covid-19 commemorative plate.


Covid-19 Commemorative Plate

You can put it between Dale Ernhardt and Star Trek.

There are other commemorative coins as well. This one is my personal favorite. So bad that I was tempted to get it.

 

[NMK11]

There actually is a Covid-19 commemorative coin. Costs $100.

As an aside this was a private company that did this, not affiliated with the White House or anyone else. But it is an example of only in America.

I liked this, but don't really like this.

Well, there is a $235 Covid-19 commemorative plate.


Covid-19 Commemorative Plate

You can put it between Dale Ernhardt and Star Trek.

There are other commemorative coins as well. This one is my personal favorite. So bad that I was tempted to get it.

Oh.

My.

God.

 

[NMK11]

Ammmmmmen. And if hospitals are under siege, I believe they had emergency need military operations if beds are needed. I would hope that's still the case.

But honestly that's the thing. If you have a plan, fine. It ends up just targeting small businesses who are busting their asses to accommodate guidelines. And just from the Allegheny stats I'll post again. 70.4% deaths come from nursing homes. I provided the survival/death rate but the only thing people will throw at you is cases.

The sad thing is, I can easily put my head down and ignore it all. We've been in a red lockdown from day 1 (everyone knows why. If you need to know about my father's condition, just PM me). I work from home regardless of covid/non. I have a full home gym and to be honest I don't like going out anyway. But watching tons of family and friends with businesses they put their heart, blood, guts, and soul into just piss off with no plan is sickening.

And what's even crazier is that the idea of force majeure clauses are built into leases to maybe help small businesses, but they actually don't hold legal ground. It is beyond madness. I don't even know why the f*** they exist is a PANDEMIC is not included in force majeure.

I think it's absolutely ridiculous that tenants are still being forced to pay leases and rent and utilities at full price when business is being artificially reduced by restrictions. This is where the state and national government has totally failed. We may not agree on the need for lockdowns at times or restrictions, but we definitely agree on this.