OT: COVID 19 - Continued

[bambamcam4ever]

Pens1566.. sorry to bring basic mathematics into this but the amount of people per square footage per traffic vs. opposing places is just fundamentally the most incorrect thing I've ever heard. I am sorry to pick one thing out, but we cannot change basic math to fit a narrative. And in obvious response to the gym side of things - people are legit cleaning things and additional workers are cleaning after their use of the product as opposed to lets say a costco where that is not the case.

That really is amazing to me that people would try to argue that concept.

I don't think I'm alone in saying I have no idea what ColePens is talking about.

 

[ColePens]

Not to mention there's a difference in necessity between food stores and gyms...

This is quite a narrow-minded component to what you actually want. This is the hypocrisy of people that I can't understand. We are so willing work around, change, and adapt to a pandemic.... but we can't think outside the box to a blatantly obvious hypocrisy. This isn't even a hard concept to adapt to if the real intention is to stop hospitals from filling up.

Break it down into pick up slots, control quantity those can take, and workers are now the only ones allowed in the store. They run the food out. Pickups run all day. Amazon is delivering. Tons of food delivery places are running. See these are things i'm really against in general because these services already exist and are available for those like me who CANNOT go into stores. But it really is amazing to me that we will make excuses why that is impossible but then just throw out small business owners to die because they make the least amount of noise. That is the harsh truth of it.

See this is the hypocrisy of what we choose to change and what we don't.
- Churches aren't essential says people who don't go. That brick facility is essential to so many. It actually has saved many lives. While it is not important to me and my life, I can't sit here and ignore my fellow peers across the globe. That would be very selfish.

- Gyms aren't essential says people who don't go. Gyms save lives from legit the #1 killer in America. There also have been so many ties to helping stop addiction because gyms/health/fitness are actually addictive in their own right. It also helps prevent diabetes. It also helps prevent a ton of the underlying issues that kill you with this pandemic. How is that not essential?

- Restaurants aren't essential says people who don't own one. If you know someone who does... you don't need any further explanation here.



So if we are really committed to, as Tom Hanks says, Covid-0.... why the hypocrisy? I can't wait to hear the responses that they are different. They aren't. People will talk around it, but if the real commitment to the plan is there... then commit. But the picking/choosing of who we can get rid of is no different than a basic game of picking lives that matter.

 

[ColePens]

Math and variables 101. Because people claim we need to do X, Y, Z that are not possible in certain places, but other places CAN do it and are told they are too risky. Now remember - math is always adjusting by the scenario. It's like a speedometer for risk. But when we look at like outdoor dining or gyms being open at limited capacity... let's take a gander at what is being said, numbers, some variables, and just apply simple scenarios.

Variables per CDC: Masks + Social Distancing + Cleaning Hands + Cleaning Areas

Place A: 130,000 sq ft with 50% capacity of 2200 people = 59.09 sq ft / person
- Cannot manage social distancing because it's not possible to keep 6 feet apart at all times
- Cannot clean all areas being touched by multiple people
+/- Constant movement/exertion
+ Masks are mandatory
+/- Hand sanitizer located only at entrance

Place B: 3000 sqft with 50% capacity of 15 people = 200 sq ft
+ Can manage social distancing to over 6 feet apart
+ Can clean every area before another person touches it
+/- Constant movement/exertion
--- Heavy Exertion
+ Masks are mandatory
+++ Sanitizer is set up at every station


Now just for the sake of it.. go ahead and change sq foot/people because it is an adjustable variable. I can say costco from experience is seen with a lot of masks down, no social distancing, however variable rate due to foot traffic. The checkout at the end is just people standing next to one another while waiting for their check to go. So let's dive into maybe the possibility of alternating strategy of shutdown:

Place A
- Could survive shutdown but cannot be shutdown because it is essential. Legit cannot shutdown.
+ Could adjust to pickup only without losing a single customer (because it's essential) and workers would still be doing the shopping. Most likely we would be looking at hiring more.
+ Parking lot capacity for this change is there.
+ The implementation of shopping online is already there.
+ The implementation of third party vendors is already there.
- Inconvenience to shoppers because it is annoying as f*** when they give you a different brand.

Place B
- Cannot survive shutdown.
- Will not get bailed out in any way
- Does not have capacity to offer same product just at home.
+Fights against #1 killer in America and other underlying issues



Now is this a perfect drawn out conclusion? No. It's taking what is being said - we need to do X, Y, Z to support our hospitals. It's taking application of some basic math. It's taking application of variables already given to us. Now the fun thing about math is every scenario is different. Two people at an apple cart in a grocery store with 1 mask being down is different than 2 people at 2 separate carts with masks up. So that is always a moving number. Same at gyms... mask down = different. We know that. But looking at the ask and contact tracing of how in the world aren't people going to a store.... I could make a strong case. That's all i'm saying. ESPECIALLY when we get into outdoor dining scenarios.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

This is quite a narrow-minded component to what you actually want. This is the hypocrisy of people that I can't understand. We are so willing work around, change, and adapt to a pandemic.... but we can't think outside the box to a blatantly obvious hypocrisy. This isn't even a hard concept to adapt to if the real intention is to stop hospitals from filling up.

Break it down into pick up slots, control quantity those can take, and workers are now the only ones allowed in the store. They run the food out. Pickups run all day. Amazon is delivering. Tons of food delivery places are running. See these are things i'm really against in general because these services already exist and are available for those like me who CANNOT go into stores. But it really is amazing to me that we will make excuses why that is impossible but then just throw out small business owners to die because they make the least amount of noise. That is the harsh truth of it.

See this is the hypocrisy of what we choose to change and what we don't.
- Churches aren't essential says people who don't go. That brick facility is essential to so many. It actually has saved many lives. While it is not important to me and my life, I can't sit here and ignore my fellow peers across the globe. That would be very selfish.

- Gyms aren't essential says people who don't go. Gyms save lives from legit the #1 killer in America. There also have been so many ties to helping stop addiction because gyms/health/fitness are actually addictive in their own right. It also helps prevent diabetes. It also helps prevent a ton of the underlying issues that kill you with this pandemic. How is that not essential?

- Restaurants aren't essential says people who don't own one. If you know someone who does... you don't need any further explanation here.



So if we are really committed to, as Tom Hanks says, Covid-0.... why the hypocrisy? I can't wait to hear the responses that they are different. They aren't. People will talk around it, but if the real commitment to the plan is there... then commit. But the picking/choosing of who we can get rid of is no different than a basic game of picking lives that matter.

Your whole shtick is you want to keep gyms and restaurants open because you know people who own those. When people only look at issues from the perspective of those close to them instead of the collective point of view, we end up in situations like a virus rampaging through our country for 9 months.

I go to the gym. I like to eat in restaurants. They are not essential. There are copious ways to exercise besides at a gym. Groceries are essential because people will starve otherwise as there is no reasonable replacement. Restaurants are not essential, and having them open indoors is killing people across the county.

 

[Pens1566]

Pens1566.. sorry to bring basic mathematics into this but the amount of people per square footage per traffic vs. opposing places is just fundamentally the most incorrect thing I've ever heard. I am sorry to pick one thing out, but we cannot change basic math to fit a narrative. And in obvious response to the gym side of things - people are legit cleaning things and additional workers are cleaning after their use of the product as opposed to lets say a costco where that is not the case.

That really is amazing to me that people would try to argue that concept.

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about (and I appear to not be the only one). It'd be great if you could spell it out more clearly.

In regards to gyms ... that may be the case that cleaning is supposed to be taking place. It doesn't change the fact that it's an extra risk factor that is obviously not the case at Costco. At least the cart I use isn't possibly dripping with sweat/secretions from whichever shopper used it last. And no one is gasping for breath next to me in the cereal aisle while I grab my cheerios. It's just not the same scenario.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Math and variables 101. Because people claim we need to do X, Y, Z that are not possible in certain places, but other places CAN do it and are told they are too risky. Now remember - math is always adjusting by the scenario. It's like a speedometer for risk. But when we look at like outdoor dining or gyms being open at limited capacity... let's take a gander at what is being said, numbers, some variables, and just apply simple scenarios.

Variables per CDC: Masks + Social Distancing + Cleaning Hands + Cleaning Areas

Place A: 130,000 sq ft with 50% capacity of 2200 people = 59.09 sq ft / person
- Cannot manage social distancing because it's not possible to keep 6 feet apart at all times
- Cannot clean all areas being touched by multiple people
+/- Constant movement/exertion
+ Masks are mandatory
+/- Hand sanitizer located only at entrance

Place B: 3000 sqft with 50% capacity of 15 people = 200 sq ft
+ Can manage social distancing to over 6 feet apart
+ Can clean every area before another person touches it
+/- Constant movement/exertion
--- Heavy Exertion
+ Masks are mandatory
+++ Sanitizer is set up at every station


Now just for the sake of it.. go ahead and change sq foot/people because it is an adjustable variable. I can say costco from experience is seen with a lot of masks down, no social distancing, however variable rate due to foot traffic. The checkout at the end is just people standing next to one another while waiting for their check to go. So let's dive into maybe the possibility of alternating strategy of shutdown:

Place A
- Could survive shutdown but cannot be shutdown because it is essential. Legit cannot shutdown.
+ Could adjust to pickup only without losing a single customer (because it's essential) and workers would still be doing the shopping. Most likely we would be looking at hiring more.
+ Parking lot capacity for this change is there.
+ The implementation of shopping online is already there.
+ The implementation of third party vendors is already there.
- Inconvenience to shoppers because it is annoying as f*** when they give you a different brand.

Place B
- Cannot survive shutdown.
- Will not get bailed out in any way
- Does not have capacity to offer same product just at home.
+Fights against #1 killer in America and other underlying issues



Now is this a perfect drawn out conclusion? No. It's taking what is being said - we need to do X, Y, Z to support our hospitals. It's taking application of some basic math. It's taking application of variables already given to us. Now the fun thing about math is every scenario is different. Two people at an apple cart in a grocery store with 1 mask being down is different than 2 people at 2 separate carts with masks up. So that is always a moving number. Same at gyms... mask down = different. We know that. But looking at the ask and contact tracing of how in the world aren't people going to a store.... I could make a strong case. That's all i'm saying. ESPECIALLY when we get into outdoor dining scenarios.

Viruses live in a 3-dimensional space. I believe you are looking for cubic feet.

 

[Pens1566]

Viruses live in a 3-dimensional space. I believe you are looking for cubic feet.

And I'm not sure I've ever seen 2200 people in a costco, even during "normal" times. So, basic math?

edit: Also, some of those +/- settings seem to be highly debatable.

 

[ColePens]

You see social distancing at grocery stores? Oh come on.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

And I'm not sure I've ever seen 2200 people in a costco, even during "normal" times. So, basic math?

edit: Also, some of those +/- settings seem to be highly debatable.

Yeah, hand sanitizer is good but all the data we have shows the vast majority of spread is through the air. And the increase of movement is actually a good thing for Costco. Infection will happen when someone breathes in a significant concentration of the virus. Moving around, like in a Costco, actually decreases the odds any one person will reach that infection threshold. In a small gym, staying still, even if distanced, will actually make it more likely that someone else gets infected due to the air flow path, unless the air circulation has been studied and redesigned in response to the pandemic. South Korea recently released a case study on how someone got infected in a restaurant over 20 feet away in just 5 minutes, due to the poor air circulation.

 

[ColePens]

Viruses live in a 3-dimensional space. I believe you are looking for cubic feet.

I'm going off CDC and our governor's restrictions. If it were up to me I'd obviously be choosing a different scenario lol.

The idea here is shut it down and commit or don't. Stop picking winners and losers. It's simple

 

[Pens1566]

You see social distancing at grocery stores? Oh come on.

No, because I don't go to grocery stores. But to assert that it's impossible one place while suggesting it's entirely the opposite at another is ridiculous. People do get up and go the can at a restaurant, right? Did they pass by someone on the way? There goes your +. Same for the door/faucet. Did someone clean that in between? Bye bye +.

As bambam already pointed out, the non-stationary nature of a store is a huge risk reducer. Along with not being there for the express purpose of shoving stuff in your face in the company of random strangers.

 

[Shady Machine]

Okay we shut down grocery stores. Now what?

Not everyone has the internet or the technical ability to order groceries online. How do those people get groceries?

 

[Pens1566]

Okay we shut down grocery stores. Now what?

Not everyone has the internet or the technical ability to order groceries online. How do those people get groceries?

Easy, the gym would still be open. Juice bars ... Boom.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Okay we shut down grocery stores. Now what?

Not everyone has the internet or the technical ability to order groceries online. How do those people get groceries?

The infrastructure isn't there right now to deliver groceries to everyone if no one went to the store any longer.

 

[Jacob]

Okay we shut down grocery stores. Now what?

Not everyone has the internet or the technical ability to order groceries online. How do those people get groceries?

Natural selection will weed them out.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

My girlfriend was told by the hospital that she works at to expect to get the vaccine shot this coming week.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The second batch of 100 million doses purchased by the U.S. will be delivered in the second quarter of next year, according to HHS.

“Securing another 100 million doses from Moderna by June 2021 further expands our supply of doses across the Operation Warp Speed portfolio of vaccines,” HHS Secretary Alex Azar said.

“This new federal purchase can give Americans even greater confidence we will have enough supply to vaccinate all Americans who want it by the second quarter of 2021.”

 

[Jacob]

I forget, is that 100 million initial + booster doses or 100 million doses to vaccinate 50 million people?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I forget, is that 100 million initial + booster doses or 100 million doses to vaccinate 50 million people?

It would be enough to vaccinate 50 million people. But remember that is in addition to the 100 million from Pfizer, and as many as four or five others.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The United States is entering an even more brutal stretch of the pandemic, with deaths now exceeding 3,000 people every day, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel from a vaccine.

The promise of a vaccine sets up a diverging reality, where in the short term the pandemic is getting even worse, but there is reassurance that it will not last forever.

Just for perspective, 3,000 deaths a day prorated over a year is over a million deaths.

 

[mpp9]

I'm going off CDC and our governor's restrictions. If it were up to me I'd obviously be choosing a different scenario lol.

The idea here is shut it down and commit or don't. Stop picking winners and losers. It's simple

If people could be trusted to act responsibly, none of this would be an issue.

Prime example. I still golf on weekends. I use my own cart when with friends, stay several feet away from them and wear a mask when having to be near people in practice areas, golf shop, etc.

One day when I was driving back from a course in the north hills area, I stopped at a gas station. Across the road, there’s probably 100 people in a parking lot, many without masks and elderly, at some music festival.

People just don’t give a f***.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

Been going to Costco since the pandemic began. I'm surprised there aren't more outbreaks stemming from them tbh

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Been going to Costco since the pandemic began. I'm surprised their aren't more outbreaks stemming from them tbh

That is the only place that I go, and am very careful to keep clear of people. Wide aisles help you to do that.

The advantage is that you can buy in bulk. I was there today and bought 2.5 pounds of fresh salmon, and a lot of other things. Over $200 for the order and I am set for the next week and a half.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

That is the only place that I go, and am very careful to keep clear of people. Wide aisles help you to do that.

The advantage is that you can buy in bulk. I was there today and bought 2.5 pounds of fresh salmon, and a lot of other things. Over $200 for the order and I am set for the next week and a half.

They started bringing back the free samples recently, kinda gutsy imo. But they have it behind a shield I guess.

Right there with you on their bulk meat purchases. You can get like nearly 5 lbs of USDA Choice Steak for under 30$ And I fill up there on premium gas for my Lexus at like 18-22$ per half tank