OT: Coronavirus XXXIV: As 2021 Approaches, Hopefully The Worst Is Behind Us

[AM]

There's an old, old joke that goes something like this:

Man: Would you sleep with me for one million dollars?

Woman: Yes, I believe I would.

Man: What about $10?

Woman: What kind of a woman do you take me for?

Man: We've already established that. Now we're just haggling over price.


[Often attributed to Churchill or WC Fields, but apparently inaccurately]

So the question is - do we try to factor in "moral worthiness" of a person into who gets a vaccine or not? If we do, then we have to decide where to draw the line. And the issues get tricky, fast.

we left the garden of eden at least 4000 years ago. We all know what we are even if some of us have been mollycoddled so haven’t had to deal with it.

 

[AM]

What next, are they going to feed them? Give them clothes and beds?

Yes yours.

 

[bone]

Not necessarily, no.

Drug and alcohol abuse are often intermixed with criminal behaviour.

So because some criminals are drug and alcohol abuser, drug and alcohol users aren't too far away from being criminals. It sounds like you are inferring that.

Also, he's comparing unhealthy behaviour not necessarily drugs and alcohol. A person with an eating disorder displays unhealthy behaviours, so they aren't far removed from criminals?

Besides all of that, the post he replied to you on you were speaking mostly about obese people, so you kind of moved the goal post on him turning it into a drug and alcohol issue.

 

[nabob]

Nice attempt at segue between an ongoing discussion of convicts receiving vaccine, (implication being convicted) vs those in remand (awaiting sentencing)

Being that you want to move the goalposts in the discussion should I consider that as conceding?

I have no idea how you equate the bolded. Kids, youth potentially contribute to society, and on sheer probability of impact, they do. the vast majority do. Similarly in the case of seniors the vast majority have been benefit to society. Neither group being incarcerated, against their will, due to criminal action.

In anycase youth contribute to society by going to school and building potential further to making direct societal contributions. Many students make direct contributions to society while in school years. Seniors contribute to society similarly to how elders do in first nations cultures, and through their support of younger generations, rearing of same, financial and other supporting of them, guidance, learning, etc.

I think one of the biggest causes of our society going to shit is that we don’t value our seniors enough. Now we have actually reached the point where posters here are claiming they add nothing to society and rapist and murders should be given priority over them for live saving vaccines.

 

[oilers'72]

There's no hard data on how may inmates have been released in North America. The best I can find is 6000 in Canada and 170K in the States.

Provincial jails released thousands of inmates amid calls to slow the spread of COVID-19

Judges release growing number accused of violent crimes due to COVID-19 fears

This link gives a later count (October 28th) but the story goes into an angle instead of delving into the data.

 

[Senor Catface]

we left the garden of eden at least 4000 years ago. We all know what we are even if some of us have been mollycoddled so haven’t had to deal with it.

 

[nabob]

So because some criminals are drug and alcohol abuser, drug and alcohol users aren't too far away from being criminals. It sounds like you are inferring that.

Also, he's comparing unhealthy behaviour not necessarily drugs and alcohol. A person with an eating disorder displays unhealthy behaviours, so they aren't far removed from criminals?

Besides all of that, the post he replied to you on you were speaking mostly about obese people, so you kind of moved the goal post on him turning it into a drug and alcohol issue.

the goal posts have been moved many times by him in this discussion to attempt to justify himself.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Straw man - Wikipedia

Ridiculous reply since you've done this several times in the discussion today.

YOU moved goalposts multiple times in discussion and then pull strawman?

Thank you for informing us you're not in the slightest way interested in fair and honest discussion in this.

 

[bone]

I think one of the biggest causes of our society going to shit is that we don’t value our seniors enough. Now we have actually reached the point where posters here are claiming they add nothing to society and rapist and murders should be given priority over them for live saving vaccines.

For what it's worth, I don't think he's trying to say this, he's just introducing the notion that moral debates are tough to support. The issue I have is that he's twice moved the goal post in the last couple pages, which can certainly anger people and ruin the intended argument he's trying to make.

 

[doulos]

I see the Mos Eisley of Intellectual discussion is still alive and kicking here at HF Oilers.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yes yours.

Burst out laughing. perfect.

Early post of the year candidate.

 

[ZenOil]

Even if you can make a sound argument for vaccinating inmates early, it will never fly with the majority of the population. It'll just piss off an already grumpy public.

 

[oilers'72]

The questions that should answered are if the cases and deaths comparable to LTC cases. If so, then they should be quarantined and hospitalized in house in order to stop the spread. If not, are the percentages of cases equal or lower than the general population? Percentages of how many cases that don't require hospitalization? Then there's little to no reason for a Covid release.

 

[nabob]

For what it's worth, I don't think he's trying to say this, he's just introducing the notion that moral debates are tough to support. The issue I have is that he's twice moved the goal post in the last couple pages, which can certainly anger people and ruin the intended argument he's trying to make.

well he did say this...

My kids don't contribute to society. My 90 year old grandmother living in an old folks home doesn't pay tax and doesn't really benefit society any more.

I have asked multiple times for statistics to show that their argument statistically is valid. Both posters have failed to provide even an ounce of evidence to support their statistic based claim.

 

[Dorian2]

I figure they're doing the prisoners first based on the dynamics of the health care system in those buildings and the inhabitants. Less availability for mobility and health care resources? They also have the prison employees to consider in this situation as well. Not saying I specifically agree with it, but I can kinda see some of the reasoning for it.

 

[nabob]

I figure they're doing the prisoners first based on the dynamics of the health care system in those buildings and the inhabitants. Less availability for mobility and health care resources? They also have the prison employees to consider in this situation as well. Not saying I specifically agree with it, but I can kinda see some of the reasoning for it.

I can see some reasoning for it if the statistics support the reasoning. If they don’t then you’d be better off vaccinating healthcare workers, hospital employees, teachers, firemen or police officers.

 

[bellagiobob]

I just threw a rock thru the local copshop window. Patiently waiting outside to get arrested and then to get my vaccine shot.

Update: Got vaccinated. Added bonus, they have a better cable package here than I have at home.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I figure they're doing the prisoners first based on the dynamics of the health care system in those buildings and the inhabitants. Less availability for mobility and health care resources? They also have the prison employees to consider in this situation as well. Not saying I specifically agree with it, but I can kinda see some of the reasoning for it.

But correctional services workers are afforded top pay, top healthcare, benefits, time off, sick pay, yada yada. They are union backed and well able to most successfully endure, cope with such hardship. They are also able to live in at least middle class abode and have really good security of ongoing employment.

Care home workers have none of the above, in many instances, are on their own, and often living in crowded or cheap accomodation, due to poor pay and job benefits and less job security.

I mean if we're making argument on behalf of employees the Care homes, residents, staff, should still be first served. Some jurisdictions have reported that 75% of the deaths have occurred in Care home facilities. These are people handling the brunt and worst of the covid pandemic, for the least pay. Give them something.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Update: Got vaccinated. Added bonus, they have a better cable package here than I have at home.

Vegas? Arizona? bastid...

At least its been good weather here. Not much good on TV...

 

[Frank the Tank]

Did I object to them being vaccinated? I simply asked for the statistics of which you were basing your opinion on. Statistics which you still won’t give an answer for. How many prisoners have died of Covid compared to seniors in LTC in Canada?

if you want to know if I feel that a law abiding citizen who is part of the most at risk group of people should be vaccinated before a criminal in a less at risk group...then my answer would be yes. Based on statistical and moral grounds.

COVID-19 vaccine: Guidance on the prioritization of initial doses - Canada.ca

COVID-19 Cases and Deaths in Federal and State Prisons

600 elderly inmates in Canada (a small fraction of the total amount) are being grouped with the elderly in long-term care homes as part of a pilot program under NACI. A panel of experts who have access to the latest data have classified the inmates as high risk individuals because of their age, health condition, and living conditions using "evidence-informed preliminary guidance." As a result, NACI determined that the inmates should be prioritized with every other high risk individual in Canada. Yes, I trust a panel of vaccine experts who decided that they should be vaccinated concurrently with the >160k elderly and health care workers being vaccinated to this point; not before, as certain posters are attempting to frame my argument.

Like I said originally, the members of NACI do not have an easy job and they are going to piss off a lot of people no matter what they decide.

 

[nabob]

COVID-19 vaccine: Guidance on the prioritization of initial doses - Canada.ca

COVID-19 Cases and Deaths in Federal and State Prisons

600 elderly inmates in Canada (a small fraction of the total amount) are being grouped with the elderly in long-term care homes as part of a pilot program under NACI. A panel of experts who have access to the latest data have classified the inmates as high risk individuals because of their age, health condition, and living conditions using "evidence-informed preliminary guidance." As a result, NACI determined that the inmates should be prioritized with every other high risk individual in Canada. Yes, I trust a panel of vaccine experts who decided that they should be vaccinated concurrently with the >160k elderly and health care workers being vaccinated to this point; not before, as certain posters are attempting to frame my argument.

Like I said originally, the members of NACI do not have an easy job and they are going to piss off a lot of people no matter what they decide.

Well if we start making our Covid decisions in Alberta based of statistics in major US cities where their Covid reality isn’t the same as ours I also have a problem with that. I’d like to see the statistics in Canada that support these decisions that are being made.

 

[Frank the Tank]

Well if we start making our Covid decisions in Alberta based of statistics in major US cities where their Covid reality isn’t the same as ours I also have a problem with that. I’d like to see the statistics in Canada that support these decisions that are being made.

As I said originally, the scientists on NACI looked at the available data sets and made an "evidence-informed" decision to create a pilot program to vaccinate 600 high-risk, elderly inmates. These are people that are up to date on latest literature and have internal statistics that we don't have. I trust their decision, and simultaneously recognize that they are going to make decisions that numerous politicians will attempt to use as wedge issues.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Like I said originally, the members of NACI do not have an easy job and they are going to piss off a lot of people no matter what they decide.

Pause and think about this a moment.

Which instance are people most likely to oppose? Seniors getting first in line Covid shots or Convicts getting it.


False equivalence notwithstanding.

This is somewhat interesting and it illustrates exactly what is happening. A powerful Correctional Services authority, and Union, with a large membership, and part of much larger union association has lobbying power, and is constantly lobbying to first in line.

This being example of such lobby
Vaccination - We must be prioritized | UCCO SACC CSN (ucco-sacc-csn.ca)


Further,



Should inmates be amongst the first Canadians to be vaccinated? - Poll - Castanet.net

Whereas the poll below, same source, shows what the public representative feeling on this is..



Previous Polls
January 6, 2021 - 8956 votes
Should inmates be amongst the first Canadians to be vaccinated?

Yes:	1061
No:	7410
Unsure:	485

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

overwhelmingly against.


Meanwhile poor workers in Care homes have no such lobby power, no such benefit or authority, and are dealing with up to 75% of covid deaths through a pandemic.

 

[nabob]

As I said originally, the scientists on NACI looked at the available data sets and made an "evidence-informed" decision to create a pilot program to vaccinate 600 high-risk, elderly inmates. These are people that are up to date on latest literature and have internal statistics that we don't have. I trust their decision, and simultaneously recognize that they are going to make decisions that numerous politicians will attempt to use as wedge issues.

Hmm well if it’s the same people who have been the ones making the decisions so far for Canada federally with regards to Covid...then no I don’t trust them at all. Don’t think it has much to do with politics or politicians as it does to do with people and lives at risk.

 

[bellagiobob]

COVID-19 vaccine: Guidance on the prioritization of initial doses - Canada.ca

COVID-19 Cases and Deaths in Federal and State Prisons

600 elderly inmates in Canada (a small fraction of the total amount) are being grouped with the elderly in long-term care homes as part of a pilot program under NACI. A panel of experts who have access to the latest data have classified the inmates as high risk individuals because of their age, health condition, and living conditions using "evidence-informed preliminary guidance." As a result, NACI determined that the inmates should be prioritized with every other high risk individual in Canada. Yes, I trust a panel of vaccine experts who decided that they should be vaccinated concurrently with the >160k elderly and health care workers being vaccinated to this point; not before, as certain posters are attempting to frame my argument.

Like I said originally, the members of NACI do not have an easy job and they are going to piss off a lot of people no matter what they decide.

I agree they don't have an easy job, but doubt they would piss off many people if inmates weren't included in the initial vaccination protocol. And I keep hearing 'Well it's only 600 inmates, or 1,200 doses, it's a really small number." And it is, if you look at it in isolation. But people have had enough. They are tired of restrictions, tired of worrying about the health of their loved ones, tired of the political shenanigans and missteps that have been going on for just about a year now.

And now you want to tell people that have been doing all the right things, may have lost their job, maybe depressed or extremely anxious, and haven't seen their parent or grandparent in months, that we are going to have prisoners in the first group that gets the vaccine, well sorry, eventually people are going to say screw it, enough is enough. And I understand the reasons you stated why the decision was made. But at a certain point people are going to flip out, and understandably so. I know I would be beyond pissed off if my elderly mum was one of the 600 seniors who missed out on getting the timely vaccine and ended up with Covid and passed away.