Coronavirus/NHL Suspension Talk

Trojans86

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Dec 30, 2015
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that's quite an interesting statement for a doctor to make

would love to know the logic behind that claim
People die all of the time from vaccines. It's why we have given out over $4 billion on settlements to people injured by them. His dr actually did her research instead of speeding the rhetoric that they are totally safe.

As for the death rate USC and Stanford have actually done studies showing 3-5% had the virus as of May which would extrapolate to 23 million in the us and a death rate of below 0.1%. Those are legit research institutions, not corrupt organizations like the cdc.

If you run the cdc, make guidelines that create multibillion products, step down from the cdc and get hired by company who owns the patent on said product, you are blatantly corrupt. I'm sorry.
 

GreatBear

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Feb 18, 2009
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As for the death rate USC and Stanford have actually done studies showing 3-5% had the virus as of May which would extrapolate to 23 million in the us and a death rate of below 0.1%. Those are legit research institutions, not corrupt organizations like the cdc.
Both of these studies have been discredited. They rely upon tests for antibodies that have way too many false positives to make the studies accurate.

But even we assume that they are correct, your math is off. If you use a population base for the United States of 330 million, 3% would be around 10 million and 5% would be around 16.5 million. With 115,436 deaths to date (John Hopkins data) the death rate at 3% is around 1.15% and at 5% the death rate is 0.7%. Further, even if the number is 23 million the rate would be around 0.5%.
 

AngelDuck

Rak 'em up
Jun 16, 2012
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If you aren’t at risk for dying of COVID(under 60 and no preexisiting conditions) I think you are seriously rolling the dice by getting the vaccine right away. I wouldn’t recommend that at all.

in fact I will be encouraging most of my friends and young family members to wait and see
 

tomd

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Some facts as of today...
1. 3.25 million - total population of OC
2. 4,055 - total cases for people under 45
3. 8,269 - total cases all ages
4. 10 - total deaths for people under 45 (none under 25)
5. 69 - total deaths for people from 45-74
6. 256,900 - jobs lost in March / April (May numbers not yet available)

And an anecdotal note...
I volunteer part-time for a recovering addicts program here in OC. We haven't been able to meet in person since mid-March. In that time, we've suffered 10 deaths due to suicide and overdose (versus zero during the first three months of the year). Deaths to due covid? Zero.
 
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KyleJRM

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Jun 6, 2007
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People die all of the time from vaccines. It's why we have given out over $4 billion on settlements to people injured by them. His dr actually did her research instead of speeding the rhetoric that they are totally safe.

As for the death rate USC and Stanford have actually done studies showing 3-5% had the virus as of May which would extrapolate to 23 million in the us and a death rate of below 0.1%. Those are legit research institutions, not corrupt organizations like the cdc.

If you run the cdc, make guidelines that create multibillion products, step down from the cdc and get hired by company who owns the patent on said product, you are blatantly corrupt. I'm sorry.

I have some bad news for you. Science doesn't work the way you think it works.

An issue isn't settled by finding one study that says what you want to believe. Trying to prove things using one study is like using one game to decide how good a player is. It's like thinking Nick Deslauriers is an elite goal scorer because you saw him that one magical night in March. All the scientists in the field do studies and try to replicate each other's studies and critique each other's studies, and through this process a consensus is reached.

The USC/Stanford studies you are referring to were widely criticized by their peers and even the people who did the studies had trouble replicating the results when they tried again, because the methodologies were quite flawed. No big deal, it happens, except this time it happened in an environment when laymen are pouring over pre-peer-reviewed studies and taking them as gospel.

When talking about viral death rates, there's actually two different death rates associated with a virus. Case Fatality Rate (CFR) and Infected Fatality Rate (IFR). CFR is empirical, it's literally just the number of deaths divided by the number of officially diagnosed cases. IFR involves guesswork, because we know that we don't officially diagnose every case.

With most novel disease outbreaks (not all, but most), CFR starts out high and trends downward as it becomes easier to find and diagnose all the cases. IFR is tricky to assess and usually isn't nailed down until years later when there's time to pour over the data, and even then sometimes there can be disagreement in the scientific community.

A month or two ago, there was a popular and reasonable theory that the virus was far more widespread and far less deadly than expert consensus. It was commonly referred to as "iceberg theory," referring to how the true mass of icebergs are significantly bigger than what you observe. It was reasonable because we knew for a fact that there were some number of unknown, undiagnosed, non-serious cases out there that we didn't have the time and resources to test for. If the iceberg turned out to be particularly large, it would imply and IFR a tiny fraction of what our early estimates projected.

Unfortunately, iceberg theory didn't turn out to be validated as better data came in. The consensus of serological studies that began pouring in (not just one that is cherrypicked) showed that the iceberg was on the smaller end of what we hoped. It would simply be impossible for the disease to have an IFR as low as 0.3, because that would imply an infected rate of over 100% extrapolated by the death tolls in some areas.

As noted, IFR is tricky to nail down when you're in the middle of an epidemic and won't truly be converged upon until much later, but last I saw right now the consensus is that our current IFR in America is 0.8%. This seems to be trending downward, which has a lot of interesting possible explanations. A common one is that medical treatment is improving. I'm actually rather intrigued by the theory that our SIR models underestimate the harvesting effect (the virus burning through its easiest targets early in an epidemic, leaving the remaining population more resistant, less exposed and more difficult to kill), but like iceberg theory that's just a reasonable theory that will need to be tested by many further studies.

As for the general safety of vaccines, you seem to have run across some dubious literature and fallen for their trick of feeding you scary anecdotes that feed into the way our brains work without actually proving what they set out to prove. Vaccines occasionally cause death, but not nearly as often as you are implying, and they save many millions more. The reason the government pays for vaccine lawsuits is a complicated political history that involves a lot of the same "people don't understand science, including those on juries" problem (here's a good article about it: Why the Government Pays Billions to People Who Claim Injury by Vaccines).
 

Kalv

Slava Ukraini
Mar 29, 2009
23,643
11,246
Latvia
Some facts as of today...
1. 3.25 million - total population of OC
2. 4,055 - total cases for people under 45
3. 8,269 - total cases all ages
4. 10 - total deaths for people under 45 (none under 25)
5. 69 - total deaths for people from 45-74
6. 256,900 - jobs lost in March / April (May numbers not yet available)

And an anecdotal note...
I volunteer part-time for a recovering addicts program here in OC. We haven't been able to meet in person since mid-March. In that time, we've suffered 10 deaths due to suicide and overdose (versus zero during the first three months of the year). Deaths to due covid? Zero.
The problem comparing the numbers of deaths that happened in the lockdown is, that without the lockdown the Covid deaths would be much more because of the overwhelmed hospitals. Lombardy region in Italy has an example of that
 

KyleJRM

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Jun 6, 2007
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North Dakota
Actually, if you want a theory that says that the virus isn't going to be as bad as we fear because of flaws in the current statistical analysis, iceberg theory is old and busted. The new hotness is variable susceptibility, and I'm pretty intrigued by it. It's a long way from proven, but I think it deserves more consideration than it's being given.

Our current models didn't predict and can't explain why the infection rates in different areas sometimes plummet and sometimes stay stubbornly plateaued. A great example would be New York vs. California. New York's infections dropped like a rock the last month and a half, while California's have stayed stubbornly around the same numbers or growing slightly. Both have similar political climates, both were locked down for relatively similar amounts of time in relatively similar manners.

An obvious difference between the two is infection levels. New York was one of the hardest-hit places in the world, reaching ~20% of the population infected. California only had a small fraction of that. But our popular understanding of herd immunity says that 20% shouldn't be enough to make that big of a difference.

Enter variable susceptibility. Most of the projection models out there being used are SIR models, which stands for Susceptible, Infected, Recovered. It lumps everyone into those three categories and treats them equally.

But that's a simplifying assumption (which sometimes models need to make, you can't model reality perfectly, the point of a model is to simplify things) that may actually end up being an important mistake. We know for a fact that all susceptible aren't identical. For a lot of reasons, some people are more vulnerable to infection and/or death than others.

Some common factors that we know or strongly suspect influence susceptibility: Level of social contact in normal lifestyle, age, gender, blood type, strength of immune system. There are almost certainly other influences that we haven't discovered yet (some intriguing ones include recent infection with other coronaviruses, exposure to region-specific childhood vaccines).

Like I said in my previous post, one study doesn't prove anything, but here's one that I thought should have been given more notice and incorporated into further work more often:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.27.20081893v1.full.pdf

It shows that if you include variable susceptibility into your models, the threshold for herd immunity drops. Under some sets of assumptions, it drops a *lot*, to the point where as low as 10% is plausible. Given that we have areas with infection rates reaching 30%, we know it probably isn't that low. But given how we've seen the virus plummet in places where 20-30% infection was reached, I think it's reasonable to guess that the threshold is a lot lower than the 70-80% that the zero-variability models imply.

That would be very good news, because it means that the virus burns itself out quicker than we feared. This would *not* mean that it isn't very serious or that locking down to flatten the curve and buy ourselves time was a bad idea. But it would mean that as we come out of lockdowns with R0's staying stubbornly at or above 1, we aren't looking at death totals in the millions in the US.
 

Terry Yake

Registered User
Aug 5, 2013
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People die all of the time from vaccines. It's why we have given out over $4 billion on settlements to people injured by them. His dr actually did her research instead of speeding the rhetoric that they are totally safe.

As for the death rate USC and Stanford have actually done studies showing 3-5% had the virus as of May which would extrapolate to 23 million in the us and a death rate of below 0.1%. Those are legit research institutions, not corrupt organizations like the cdc.

If you run the cdc, make guidelines that create multibillion products, step down from the cdc and get hired by company who owns the patent on said product, you are blatantly corrupt. I'm sorry.
yeah, those studies are complete bullshit because the death rate is not below 0.1%

a simple google search and basic math would tell you that much
 

tomd

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yeah, those studies are complete bullshit because the death rate is not below 0.1%

a simple google search and basic math would tell you that much

Simple question...how can you make such a statement about the death rate percentage when no one really knows how much of the population has actually been infected? What do you think the "real" number is and how are you arriving at it?
 

KyleJRM

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Jun 6, 2007
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North Dakota
Simple question...how can you make such a statement about the death rate percentage when no one really knows how much of the population has actually been infected? What do you think the "real" number is and how are you arriving at it?

We don’t have an exact real number on IFR, but we do have some lower limits.

New York City has 17,100 confirmed Covid deaths and a population of 8.3 million. If somehow every single New Yorker had already been infected and we missed that, the death rate would still be 0.2%. A death rate of 0.1 or lower would imply an infection rate in New York of 200% or higher, which is definitionally impossible.

Some of these opinions feel like they were locked in six weeks ago and haven’t been changed as new information comes in. In early April we had no clue how many cases we were dealing with. In mid-June, we may not be able to give an exact number, but we have narrowed it down quite a bit through broad testing.
 

tomd

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We don’t have an exact real number on IFR, but we do have some lower limits.

New York City has 17,100 confirmed Covid deaths and a population of 8.3 million. If somehow every single New Yorker had already been infected and we missed that, the death rate would still be 0.2%. A death rate of 0.1 or lower would imply an infection rate in New York of 200% or higher, which is definitionally impossible.

Some of these opinions feel like they were locked in six weeks ago and haven’t been changed as new information comes in. In early April we had no clue how many cases we were dealing with. In mid-June, we may not be able to give an exact number, but we have narrowed it down quite a bit through broad testing.

Well, they are confirmed only in so far as the deceased died "with" covid. The CDC (or whomever made the decision) did a terrible injustice by not demanding a more rigorous and specific cause of death examination for each fatality. Also, your extrapolation of the death rate to the total population only works if the age distribution of the city matches the age distribution of the deaths. I'm quite sure it doesn't. The deaths were overwhelmingly among the elderly (at most of those in nursing homes of some type) while the overall population of NYC trends to a younger demographic.
 
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KyleJRM

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There is absolutely zero evidence that deaths are being overcounted.

Your second complaint is simply mathematically incorrect. You don’t need to adjust death rate demographically to detect a minimum theoretical possible death rate, because you are literally assuming everyone is already a case.

Put simply, if X% if your population dies, it is literally impossible to have a death rate of less than X.

I may not be able to project the Ducks record from a 5-game losing streak, but I can eliminate any projection that has them going 78-4 or better
 
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GreatBear

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Feb 18, 2009
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Well, they are confirmed only in so far as the deceased died "with" covid. The CDC (or whomever made the decision) did a terrible injustice by not demanding a more rigorous and specific cause of death examination for each fatality. Also, your extrapolation of the death rate to the total population only works if the age distribution of the city matches the age distribution of the deaths. I'm quite sure it doesn't. The deaths were overwhelmingly among the elderly (at most of those in nursing homes of some type) while the overall population of NYC trends to a younger demographic.
You really sound like you don't care if older people live or die from this disease. Do you really mean this? Are the lives of younger people more valuable than the lives of older people? Perhaps you are a fan of the society in 'Logan's Run'.
 

tomd

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You really sound like you don't care if older people live or die from this disease. Do you really mean this? Are the lives of younger people more valuable than the lives of older people? Perhaps you are a fan of the society in 'Logan's Run'.

No where in my post did I make that claim. I simply refuted the analysis provided by the previous poster. Nothing more. But this is a serious subject that requires facts and not emotion. Why are you being so hysterical about a subject that should be treated with a high degree of thoughtfulness and analysis?
 

tomd

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There is absolutely zero evidence that deaths are being overcounted.

Your second complaint is simply mathematically incorrect. You don’t need to adjust death rate demographically to detect a minimum theoretical possible death rate, because you are literally assuming everyone is already a case.

Put simply, if X% if your population dies, it is literally impossible to have a death rate of less than X.

I may not be able to project the Ducks record from a 5-game losing streak, but I can eliminate any projection that has them going 78-4 or better

Except that the mortality rate among the REMAINING population could be much lower than 0.2%. Is that not possible? Of course it is!
 

Terry Yake

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Aug 5, 2013
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Except that the mortality rate among the REMAINING population could be much lower than 0.2%. Is that not possible? Of course it is!
possible? yes

i'd say as possible as the ducks winning 3 straight cups starting next season
 

Trojans86

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Dec 30, 2015
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We don’t have an exact real number on IFR, but we do have some lower limits.

New York City has 17,100 confirmed Covid deaths and a population of 8.3 million. If somehow every single New Yorker had already been infected and we missed that, the death rate would still be 0.2%. A death rate of 0.1 or lower would imply an infection rate in New York of 200% or higher, which is definitionally impossible.

Some of these opinions feel like they were locked in six weeks ago and haven’t been changed as new information comes in. In early April we had no clue how many cases we were dealing with. In mid-June, we may not be able to give an exact number, but we have narrowed it down quite a bit through broad testing.
Absolutely, we know nyc is probably a worst case scenario with the highest death rates. We also have whistleblower doctors amd nurses saying that they completely botched their response with ventilators amd nursing homes in nyc which would boost the death rate. We also know that the cdc has said they want to more aggressively code for covid than other diseases like the flu. We also know we have financially incentivized hospitals to code for covid and vent for those on Medicare AMD Medicaid, which lines up with the drastically higher rates for low income and elderly. It all lines up.
 

Trojans86

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Dec 30, 2015
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yeah, those studies are complete bullshit because the death rate is not below 0.1%

a simple google search and basic math would tell you that much
I never said they were below 0.1%, said if you extrapolate. California is very suburban and spread out. California is one of our hottest states and clearly climate impacts death rates just as it does the flu. So if California is unusually low and the northeast is unusually high you get to the 0.1%-0.3% like I have said and like I have seen by medical professionals, not the post, CNN, etc.
 
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tomd

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possible? yes

i'd say as possible as the ducks winning 3 straight cups starting next season

I'd say for those under 40 the answer is almost certainly "yes". And for those under 25 even more so.

The point is that as a society we are impacting those least likely to be affected the most. That cannot continue until a cure or vaccine is created. We need to be smarter and learn from the last three months...not continue on as if we haven't learned anything since March. There were some tragic decisions made in NYC and NJ in that earlier time frame that caused the mortality rate to skyrocket among the elderly in those places. Absent those decisions, thousands would still be alive and we'd be looking at this in a more rational way. In the meantime, the younger generations are paying a terrible price.
 

Trojans86

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Dec 30, 2015
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There is absolutely zero evidence that deaths are being overcounted.

Your second complaint is simply mathematically incorrect. You don’t need to adjust death rate demographically to detect a minimum theoretical possible death rate, because you are literally assuming everyone is already a case.

Put simply, if X% if your population dies, it is literally impossible to have a death rate of less than X.

I may not be able to project the Ducks record from a 5-game losing streak, but I can eliminate any projection that has them going 78-4 or better
The cdc has came out and said they are going to be very aggressive coding. If am elderly person passes away and has covid in their system, the hospitals are instructed to classify that as a covid death. That is not how we classify deaths for other diseases. When people get sick their bodies are susceptible to attack from a variety of viruses which is why seemingly non dangerous things like pneumonia kill the weak.

That isnt an opinion. It is fact. The cdc wanted to track amdntrace but that can also skew the data. We need to be cognizant of the apples to oranges comparisons.
 

tomd

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I never said they were below 0.1%, said if you extrapolate. California is very suburban and spread out. California is one of our hottest states and clearly climate impacts death rates just as it does the flu. So if California is unusually low and the northeast is unusually high you get to the 0.1%-0.3% like I have said and like I have seen by medical professionals, not the post, CNN, etc.

The real tragedy is that now is exactly the time to try to kill this virus with herd immunity. Summertime is when the body's immunity system is at it's strongest to fight off disease and illness. If we continue to shelter the entire population through the summer, we are setting ourselves up for a much worse winter with both covid and the annual flu hitting together.
 

KyleJRM

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Jun 6, 2007
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The cdc has came out and said they are going to be very aggressive coding. If am elderly person passes away and has covid in their system, the hospitals are instructed to classify that as a covid death. That is not how we classify deaths for other diseases. When people get sick their bodies are susceptible to attack from a variety of viruses which is why seemingly non dangerous things like pneumonia kill the weak.

Neither of those things prove that deaths are being over counted.

There’s a pretty simple way to check. Compare total deaths to previous years at the same time.
 

tomd

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The cdc has came out and said they are going to be very aggressive coding. If am elderly person passes away and has covid in their system, the hospitals are instructed to classify that as a covid death. That is not how we classify deaths for other diseases. When people get sick their bodies are susceptible to attack from a variety of viruses which is why seemingly non dangerous things like pneumonia kill the weak.

That isnt an opinion. It is fact. The cdc wanted to track amdntrace but that can also skew the data. We need to be cognizant of the apples to oranges comparisons.

Exactly.
 

Trojans86

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Dec 30, 2015
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For anyone that wants to see what happened in the epicenter of the crisis, a whistleblower nurse put something out where she recorded her time as a nurse in queens. Just watch it. Not political in the slightest.
 

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