Coronavirus discussion thread (no political debates) V

[Bluelines]

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1310039401

over 8500 people died in 2018.
Thank you very much.

8,511 died of flu/pneumonia
12,998 died of COPD

total

21,509 people died of lower respiratory illnesses.

sorry that you didn’t understand when I said around 8,500 I was just rounding and when I said around 12000 I was just rounding it again. I did it again when I said around 20,000.

But you’re right.
Some people need that actual figure of the number of people that died.

SO AGAIN,
8,511 flu/pneumonia
12,998 COPD.

Total 21,509 lower respiratory illnesses.

now just an FYI

I have COPD.
I have a much greater risk of dying from covid.
I get pneumonia multiple times a year and i suffer from chronic bronchitis. When I get the flu. My nose gets stuffed then my chronic lung illness turns to a bacterial infection and my risk of dying goes up.

I know a lot about lower respiratory illnesses.

sorry that people that have zero knowledge of the issue are easily manipulated by the media and politicians.

best of luck

Awesome so you know more than a trained Doctor, great, no point in going to school for 8 years to get my Doctorate, I'll just contract the illness and I'm = to a Doctor.

I have COPD and Chronic Bronchitis, every year I go through the dog and pony show where the Dr. says sorry nothing they can do about it you just have to ride it out, they offer a puffer, I say no, I have a persistent cough for 2 to 4 months after every cold. I can assure you having the condition does not make me or you an expert. I call BS on you getting pneumonia multiple times each year.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

We just locked down bars restaurants theatres gyms in half of province GTA, Peel and Ottawa. Well that puts another half million going back on CRB again. and another $300M to support those business owners from Ontario. We already opened up da wallet. I am sure cases will continue to go up as long as schools and churches stay open. We can't do these half *ss measures. Either go complete lockdown or open up everything. We are trying to put a bandaid on something that needs a stitch because our hospitals can't handle it again. I was at Trillium on Sunday for an hour waiting with my daughter for a cut and triage was a 6 hour wait time. Many many hundreds of people there. Lots of older people. It was overwhelming. I have never seen it that bad ever.

 

[thewave]

We just locked down bars restaurants theatres gyms in half of province GTA, Peel and Ottawa. Well that puts another half million going back on CRB again. and another $300M to support those business owners from Ontario. We already opened up da wallet. I am sure cases will continue to go up as long as schools and churches stay open. We can't do these half *ss measures. Either go complete lockdown or open up everything. We are trying to put a bandaid on something that needs a stitch because our hospitals can't handle it again. I was at Trillium on Sunday for an hour waiting with my daughter for a cut and triage was a 6 hour wait time. Many many hundreds of people there. Lots of older people. It was overwhelming. I have never seen it that bad ever.

The data is clear. The virus is what it is and the mortality rate shows it is not warranted to do these measures period. Enough countries around the world that are using treatment options are not seeing drastic mortality. Doctors all around the world do not like Lockdowns. This only signals that the GOV will be coming for the upper middle classes wealth to cover all this. Inheritance taxes, increased property taxes, taxes on taxes on taxes on taxes to pay for this BS.

 

[thewave]

If your suggesting there needs to be an investigation, your suggesting something nefarious is going on or are you suggesting everything is begin done correctly so we must investigate? Which would be odd because if every thing is cool there is no need to investigate.

Your words are suggesting you feel that there is a massive unnecessary over reaction. That would suggest that the Dr's and Scientist are either massively incompetent sheep or working towards a common goal to trick the world into an economic collapse? That is a global conspiracy, no?

10% was based on what criteria? Did governments adjust their plans, I have see living documents where the projected mortality rate is adjusted as counties adapt their mitigation efforts, not unusual TBH.

I think you are too eager to look for things that confirm your bias. China is hiding data so bad China, China is treating their people a certain way so good China... there are literally multiple studies that have concluded Hydrox is not an effective treatment and may be actually harmful.

I respect your thirst for information but you are not going about it in an unbiased matter.

You have your own opinions about what I am posting here. They are wrong and you have been corrected yet persist. It's not a good look.

I am going about it in the only way anyone else with critical thinking skills should... Relentlessly. 330 Billion was spent on something that killed statistically the same or less than that the common flu. I think if you are Canadian with any brains you should be starting to call up you local officials, politicians and start demanding transparency, action, investigation or whatever you feel is proper course of action.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The data is clear. The virus is what it is and the mortality rate shows it is not warranted to do these measures period. Enough countries around the world that are using treatment options are not seeing drastic mortality. Doctors all around the world do not like Lockdowns. This only signals that the GOV will be coming for the upper middle classes wealth to cover all this. Inheritance taxes, increased property taxes, taxes on taxes on taxes on taxes to pay for this BS.

Good news is we are lowest total debt to GDP in G7 nations and also 2nd highest taxed on per person income so there is a lot more room to get us back to where countries like USA are at. While I don't like the strategy in general there is plenty of room to grow debt without taxing more.

The real issue is not that you mention at all; it is relative downward affect on our GDP relative to US GDP. That will worsen our standard of living.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Good news is we are lowest total debt to GDP in G7 nations and also 2nd highest taxed on per person income so there is a lot more room to get us back to where countries like USA are at. While I don't like the strategy in general there is plenty of room to grow debt without taxing more.

The real issue is not that you mention at all; it is relative downward affect on our GDP relative to US GDP. That will worsen our standard of living.

And only because our dollar will devalue relative to US dollar ... for most people in means nothing (like size of debt in general) ... it will affect people who live in Florida and Arizona who will find our dollar gets them much less ... these are same people who are at most risk of dying from COVID

 

[Bluelines]

You have your own opinions about what I am posting here. They are wrong and you have been corrected yet persist. It's not a good look.

I am going about it in the only way anyone else with critical thinking skills should... Relentlessly. 330 Billion was spent on something that killed statistically the same or less than that the common flu. I think if you are Canadian with any brains you should be starting to call up you local officials, politicians and start demanding transparency, action, investigation or whatever you feel is proper course of action.

Why are you so convinced there is malfeasance?

LOL, if you are a Canadian with any brains you would know there is an Auditor General of Canada. Which is a non political entity that will audit every dollar that goes out. they have in the past been extremely transparent and critical of the governing party. There is the CRA who will follow up abuses with the CERB. there is the RCMP that will follow up fraud accusations. Critical thinking for the WIN!!!!

So you want people to call their local officials, politicians and demand investigation into what? You still have not stated specifically what illegal transaction happened. Who committed this illegal transaction? So when we use our brains what is the answer to these questions?

 

[Bluelines]

The data is clear. The virus is what it is and the mortality rate shows it is not warranted to do these measures period. Enough countries around the world that are using treatment options are not seeing drastic mortality. Doctors all around the world do not like Lockdowns. This only signals that the GOV will be coming for the upper middle classes wealth to cover all this. Inheritance taxes, increased property taxes, taxes on taxes on taxes on taxes to pay for this BS.

No it's not clear , what is clear you have formed an opinion, which is at odds with the VAST majority of experts on this issue. Just because you believe something to be true, does not make is so. you have formed a bias, you look for data that confirms your bias, you feel good about yourself. End of story.

 

[Nineteen67]

The data is clear. The virus is what it is and the mortality rate shows it is not warranted to do these measures period. Enough countries around the world that are using treatment options are not seeing drastic mortality. Doctors all around the world do not like Lockdowns. This only signals that the GOV will be coming for the upper middle classes wealth to cover all this. Inheritance taxes, increased property taxes, taxes on taxes on taxes on taxes to pay for this BS.

If I was business owner that was shut down for no known reason I would ignore their request and open my doors anyway. Restaurants and gyms must have some associations that will back them up. It’s time the people stood up for their rights.

 

[thewave]

Why are you so convinced there is malfeasance?

LOL, if you are a Canadian with any brains you would know there is an Auditor General of Canada. Which is a non political entity that will audit every dollar that goes out. they have in the past been extremely transparent and critical of the governing party. There is the CRA who will follow up abuses with the CERB. there is the RCMP that will follow up fraud accusations. Critical thinking for the WIN!!!!

So you want people to call their local officials, politicians and demand investigation into what? You still have not stated specifically what illegal transaction happened. Who committed this illegal transaction? So when we use our brains what is the answer to these questions?

Equal to or less morbidity than common Flu and Pneumonia. End of story. That alone is grounds to investigate, not to mention the absolute massacre that happened in public nursing homes and long term care facilities.

You constantly ignore the DATA. You do not answer questions. You repeat disinformation.

 

[thewave]

If I was business owner that was shut down for no known reason I would ignore their request and open my doors anyway. Restaurants and gyms must have some associations that will back them up. It’s time the people stood up for their rights.

Here Here. I have a good feeling about public sentiment and faith in my fellow Canadians. I think that given the data and the proper information, the people of Canada will push back on what I would say constitutes a violation of human rights. The data is clear, the threat is not imminent nor are the actions taken warranted.

This should be heard by the courts.

Add:

CDC stats through October 7, 2020
89,981 Deaths involving Covid19 AND Pneumonia
78% of the dead were 65+
31% were 85+
96% had co-morbidities

 

[Craig Button]

Awesome so you know more than a trained Doctor, great, no point in going to school for 8 years to get my Doctorate, I'll just contract the illness and I'm = to a Doctor.

I have COPD and Chronic Bronchitis, every year I go through the dog and pony show where the Dr. says sorry nothing they can do about it you just have to ride it out, they offer a puffer, I say no, I have a persistent cough for 2 to 4 months after every cold. I can assure you having the condition does not make me or you an expert. I call BS on you getting pneumonia multiple times each year.

I call BS on everything you say.

I provided actual numbers from stats Canada to prove that over 8500 people die from the flu.
12000 from COPD and that totals to over 20,000 people dying from lower respiratory illnesses.

as for you having COPD.
I call total bs on that. without my puffer I’m a dead man.
If you have a mild case of COPD consider it a blessing.

Regardless of how you view doctors or how I view doctors. Regardless of how you fear covid or how I feel that it was handled poorly. The point remains.
Approx 8500 died of the flu
12000 of COPD
And a total over 20,000 will die every year of lower respiratory illnesses.

 

[Nineteen67]

Here Here. I have a good feeling about public sentiment and faith in my fellow Canadians. I think that given the data and the proper information, the people of Canada will push back on what I would say constitutes a violation of human rights. The data is clear, the threat is not imminent nor are the actions taken warranted.

This should be heard by the courts.

Add:

CDC stats through October 7, 2020
89,981 Deaths involving Covid19 AND Pneumonia
78% of the dead were 65+
31% were 85+
96% had co-morbidities

I read things in the sun and posted in difference places and think to myself, how they just find this out now.

 

[thewave]

Quick google search shows a ballpark of 3 million active physicians between North America. "THOUSANDS" on a petition isn't quite so impressive in that context.

This thread:

Impressive. There are more Physicians calling for an end to the measures than we have deaths in Ontario. In a strange way that validates their opinion. Oh and because you just pulled a meme out on me, I will say... ZING.

 

[Mikeyg]

At this point im of the opinion that its time to open everything back up and just forget the idea of lockdowns. Im speaking as a toronto native for context. It’s literally impossible in this city to adequately social distance. The good thing is that most people are adequately wearing masks and trying to stay as clean as possible. Despite all that, I’ll See people touch elevator buttons, door handles, Self checkout screens with their Bare hands. Its pretty much widely accepted at this point that most cases are from your family members or people you live with Anyways. Thats why were seeing so many cases in Brampton where you can have dozens of people living in 1 house in certain cases. Most importantly to me though, We dont live in an a society that can adequately follow directions perfectly, and it feels like lockdowns don’t actually cause a net benefit. Ford himself estimated that 7600 restaurants in the gta are going to go bankrupt. Despite everything else Ive said here, the most important issue to me is that I don’t think corona risk is worth this economic damage.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Maybe do your research before you start to spread factually incorrect numbers.

In a CBC interview a few weeks ago an editor of the Canadian Medical Association Journal said: "Four thousand to 8,000 people die every year of influenza."

It comes directly from the desk of Canada's chief public health officer. "The flu is serious," he tells us from his website. "Every year, between 2,000 and 8,000 Canadians die of the flu and its complications."

Did you ever wonder how they know that? The fact is, they don't know that. "This is a scientific guess. This is not the truth," Dr. Michael Gardam, director of the infection prevention and control unit at the University Health Network in Toronto and a longtime flu watcher, told me.

The fact is, no one knows how many people die after being infected with the flu virus. The death estimates are not based on body counts, lab tests or autopsies.

"I think people may have the misconception that every person who dies from the flu is somehow counted somewhere, and they're not," Gardam said.

The "2,000 to 8,000" numbers are based on computer models — a statistical guess that comes out of the end of a mathematical formula that makes a range of assumptions about death and flu.

"They're tossing it into a big computer and they're churning out estimates," Gardam said as he scribbled numbers on a white board to show me how the models work.

One model counts all respiratory and circulatory deaths — that's death from heart and lung failure — as flu deaths.

"As an upper limit, they are looking at everybody who died of a heart and lung problem," Gardam said.

"So you could imagine this could include people who died of a heart attack that had nothing to do with flu, but the feeling is that anybody who died of flu should be captured in there, plus a lot of other people."

At the lower end of that model they count the number of deaths officially listed as "influenza" on the death certificate, plus all deaths from pneumonia — even though not all pneumonia is caused by flu.​

I saw this page yesterday and here were the stats:

Infection Prevention and Control Canada (IPAC)
2019-2020 cases = 42541
2020-2021 cases = 6

Today when you go on that page...it says "exceptionally low levels" instead of the number 6.

Why do you think they changed it? Why would we only have 6 friggen cases of the flu in canada...yes..maybe they started counting the flu season at a different date than the start of the year...but unless that date was October 10th...it seems like the Flu cases are now magically being counted as covid cases.

As I have said before...if it was as deadly to Everyone as they say(not just the old and infirm)..they wouldn't have to monkey with the books...but yet they do monkey with said books to make it seems worse than it is to cover their asses for destroying many peoples livelihoods.

Influenza Resources | IPAC Canada

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

If your suggesting there needs to be an investigation, your suggesting something nefarious is going on or are you suggesting everything is begin done correctly so we must investigate? Which would be odd because if every thing is cool there is no need to investigate.

Your words are suggesting you feel that there is a massive unnecessary over reaction. That would suggest that the Dr's and Scientist are either massively incompetent sheep or working towards a common goal to trick the world into an economic collapse? That is a global conspiracy, no?

10% was based on what criteria? Did governments adjust their plans, I have see living documents where the projected mortality rate is adjusted as counties adapt their mitigation efforts, not unusual TBH.

I think you are too eager to look for things that confirm your bias. China is hiding data so bad China, China is treating their people a certain way so good China... there are literally multiple studies that have concluded Hydrox is not an effective treatment and may be actually harmful.

I respect your thirst for information but you are not going about it in an unbiased matter.

Neither are you my friend...neither are you. We all have biases, that is inherent with being a human. At the same time, people who keep making wrong predictions based on their "model" keep getting asked for more predictions. If you went to a guy who was an expert on sports betting and he literally got every pick wrong...would you keep going to see him? So why do we still listen to Neil Ferguson and his God awful model that was off by a factor of 10x-15x? He was wrong about Mad Cow disease too...he was wrong about most every single thing he has ever predicted...and yet we listen to THAT expert and not another who might be a dissenter. It's become a clown world because science has become political...it no longer is pure..just like everything else...it's gone to hell.

 

[Bluelines]

I call BS on everything you say.

I provided actual numbers from stats Canada to prove that over 8500 people die from the flu.
12000 from COPD and that totals to over 20,000 people dying from lower respiratory illnesses.

as for you having COPD.
I call total bs on that. without my puffer I’m a dead man.
If you have a mild case of COPD consider it a blessing.

Regardless of how you view doctors or how I view doctors. Regardless of how you fear covid or how I feel that it was handled poorly. The point remains.
Approx 8500 died of the flu
12000 of COPD
And a total over 20,000 will die every year of lower respiratory illnesses.[/QUOTE

Well apparently your also the only person in the world to contract pneumonia multiple times every year, that's a big steaming pile of BS.

 

[Bluelines]

Neither are you my friend...neither are you. We all have biases, that is inherent with being a human. At the same time, people who keep making wrong predictions based on their "model" keep getting asked for more predictions. If you went to a guy who was an expert on sports betting and he literally got every pick wrong...would you keep going to see him? So why do we still listen to Neil Ferguson and his God awful model that was off by a factor of 10x-15x? He was wrong about Mad Cow disease too...he was wrong about most every single thing he has ever predicted...and yet we listen to THAT expert and not another who might be a dissenter. It's become a clown world because science has become political...it no longer is pure..just like everything else...it's gone to hell.

When you start to model an unknown, your variance will be large, as you get more data you can close down the variance. This is what happened, this is what is happening.

Every forecast model is wrong, I've been in business for 35 years and have yet to see anyone give me a forecast that hits it on the head. In my industry forecast modeling 10% variance is industry standard, 5% variance is world class. You can easily argue in my industry, you can be world class and be wrong at the same time.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Equal to or less morbidity than common Flu and Pneumonia. End of story. That alone is grounds to investigate, not to mention the absolute massacre that happened in public nursing homes and long term care facilities.

You constantly ignore the DATA. You do not answer questions. You repeat disinformation.

Isn't wonderful how everyone all of sudden cares about nursing homes all of a sudden? Not when a bad flu wipes out thousands of older folks..but now..yes now...now we really care about them. It makes me sick...all of this pretend outrage and caring.

It seems there are a lot of people who are absolutely terrified of this virus and the country will never be the same. They have done a great job of scaring 25-30% of the population out of their minds...do you think those people will ever be normal again after this? People walking around outdoors with their dogs with Masks on...FFS...they are forever damaged... These same people who are terrified will say something something "the science says" but totally ignore that your chances of catching it outdoors is almost nil according to the same science..its a joke..people have gone and lost their minds over this travesty.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

When you start to model an unknown, your variance will be large, as you get more data you can close down the variance. This is what happened, this is what is happening.

Every forecast model is wrong, I've been in business for 35 years and have yet to see anyone give me a forecast that hits it on the head. In my industry forecast modeling 10% variance is industry standard, 5% variance is world class. You can easily argue in my industry, you can be world class and be wrong at the same time.

Ok...5-10% I get...but a factor of 10x? so 1000% wrong is ok? Do some reading up on Mr. Ferguson....your eyes will be opened to him and his scammy model. He should be tried by jury for what he caused in the western world due to his horrific "model"

 

[Bluelines]

Equal to or less morbidity than common Flu and Pneumonia. End of story. That alone is grounds to investigate, not to mention the absolute massacre that happened in public nursing homes and long term care facilities.

You constantly ignore the DATA. You do not answer questions. You repeat disinformation.

Again you ignore the question, What was the crime and who did it. The owners of LTC facilities that were negligent are being investigated, some have already been charged. I'm not sure where you are going here.

It's not even close to equal to or less morbidity to the common Flu, the death rate is +5% where the flu is somewhere around 2%. you premise is flawed. What you believe to be true is not true at all. I've shown multiple times that your understanding and the reality are 2 different things.

According to Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, which has been tracking the spread of the coronavirus worldwide, the mortality rate in the U.S. is even higher, at 35.75 deaths per 100,000 people.

By comparison, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control shows the age-adjusted death rate in the U.S. for both influenza and pneumonia has varied quarterly over the past few years from around 9 to 16 deaths per 100,000.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/covid-death-rate-flu-debunk-1.5615872
​

 

[4thline]

When you start to model an unknown, your variance will be large, as you get more data you can close down the variance. This is what happened, this is what is happening.

Not to mention if said model is
if a then x
if b then y

And you choose b but people still fault you for x not happening

 

[thewave]

Again you ignore the question, What was the crime and who did it. The owners of LTC facilities that were negligent are being investigated, some have already been charged. I'm not sure where you are going here.

It's not even close to equal to or less morbidity to the common Flu, the death rate is +5% where the flu is somewhere around 2%. you premise is flawed. What you believe to be true is not true at all. I've shown multiple times that your understanding and the reality are 2 different things.

According to Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, which has been tracking the spread of the coronavirus worldwide, the mortality rate in the U.S. is even higher, at 35.75 deaths per 100,000 people.

By comparison, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control shows the age-adjusted death rate in the U.S. for both influenza and pneumonia has varied quarterly over the past few years from around 9 to 16 deaths per 100,000.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/covid-death-rate-flu-debunk-1.5615872
​

Everyone here can read that you seem to be incapable of engaging in fair debate. I said warrant investigation and you trying to get me to implicate someone or an entity. The point is, data does not warrant measures therefore there should be an investigation into the matter. That is the end of it.

I am unsure on the criteria for John Hopkins data. There may be a discrepancy with co-moribidity factors. Regardless, the CDC data is the ultimate and final data. Hopkins is a lesser entity in the hierarchy. 35.75 per 100,000 still does not warrant the measures taken anyways. I would still want an investigation as initially they were saying it could be from 10,000 in 100,000 could perish.

 

[PuckMagi]

If you went to a guy who was an expert on sports betting and he literally got every pick wrong...would you keep going to see him?

Of course you keep going to see him... you just bet the opposite of what he picks.