Coronavirus and the Washington Capitals Part 2

[txpd]

Then there was my grandfather on my father's side. I didnt know all this stuff til i was a full grown adult or else the baggage might have been too much

 

[AussieCapsFan]

Six figure jobs here. People dont want them. The work is too hard

Ah yes, the younger generation. Enough said.

I saw on the news yesterday that in England / UK, they are having food shortages because when they left the European Union 13,000 truck drivers returned to their own countries, so there is a big problem with supply.
Truck drivers don't get paid much so nobody in England wants to do it. More insanity.

 

[txpd]

Ah yes, the younger generation. Enough said.

I saw on the news yesterday that in England / UK, they are having food shortages because when they left the European Union 13,000 truck drivers returned to their own countries, so there is a big problem with supply.
Truck drivers don't get paid much so nobody in England wants to do it. More insanity.

Long hauler truckers in the US make 6 figures

 

[Calicaps]

Leviticus 13:45-6

/thread

 

[twabby]

What percentage of novaxxers do you really think fit your poor, huddled, uneducated, victim status? Compared to those who I've described as willingly coming to their own conclusions using known bad media sources?

You're also contradicting yourself by complaining about the "bad actors" (which is real) yet excusing people for not getting good information. Which is it? Are they being manipulated and lied to or not? If they are and you don't blame them for it, who is doing it? And why?

Not a convincing argument.

The statistics are clear: kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-profile-of-the-unvaccinated/

Compared To Those Who Have Received A COVID-19 Vaccine, Unvaccinated Adults Are Younger, Less Educated, More Likely To Be Republicans, People Of Color, And Uninsured

By bad actors I meant people who chose not to get vaccinated despite being armed with the knowledge needed to make an informed decision. It was a poor choice of words, and I apologize for the confusion. I was not referring to bad actors in terms of foreign agents, people intentionally deceiving others, etc.

There certainly are some people, grifters, out there pushing misinformation for their own benefit. But it's not nearly enough to explain overall vaccine hesitancy numbers in the United States. Do you think that Hispanic people and black people are more vaccine hesitant because they watch Fox News or scroll through Facebook more than their richer, whiter counterparts? Seems unlikely.

Again, you appear to be missing the forest for the trees. Propaganda is out there, but it's only a fraction of the reason why people are vaccine hesitant. For most, it's because they have well-justified reasons for being skeptical of the institutions promoting these vaccines.

There's no easy answer to fix this problem. If we could magically get rid of Fox News, Facebook, Herschel's Tonics and Snake Oils, etc., it would be unlikely to make a big dent into the vaccine hesitancy. The only solution is years of the government, media, and the medical system working for everyone, including and especially for the poorest of us. Only then will people start trusting these institutions when they say something like a vaccine is urgently necessary.

 

[twabby]

Incorrect. It's expertise whether you choose to trust it or not. This is the problem. You mis-define expertise and then proceed on the basis of that flawed definition. Being a bad actor isn't correlated with expertise. One can claim to be an expert and be a lying sack of shit. One can be an expert and be a douche. But the expertise or lack of same is separate from the lying and douchery.

And I totally get that people have well-founded skepticism based on class and race. But the way you talk about those groups suggests you think they mostly are functionally illiterate morons who cannot think critically. That's false. Millions of poor people and people of color in this country have waded through the various legitimate influences and hesitations and come to the decision that the weight of science, including from tribal and Black sources, is clear and that the vaccine saves lives.

For me, the easiest analogy is climate change. I bet you believe that science and expertise. But the science and expertise you don't want to believe you find reasons to discount. Either you believe in science and the expertise that comes from extensive study and experience, or you don't. And if you only believe in those things when they align with your preferred worldview, then you don't believe in them.

Functionally it is not expertise if it is not trusted. If someone does not trust the people providing the analysis and cannot for whatever reason (education, access to the data, etc.) independently analyze the data for themselves, then the "expertise" is useless and is basically just more noise.

Yes, a lot of poor people have decided to get vaccinated. I'm glad they have. But that doesn't mean that those who have decided not to get vaccinated are lesser people for not having come to the same conclusion. Perhaps they had a relative who was a Tuskegee experiment participant, or perhaps they were a victim of medical bankruptcy, or what have you.

Without examining why people became so mistrustful in the first place, no progress will be made. We need a cohesive, functional society that strives to make everyone thrive, rather than pitting us all against each other in a hyper-individualistic free-for-all.

 

[g00n]

The statistics are clear: kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-profile-of-the-unvaccinated/



By bad actors I meant people who chose not to get vaccinated despite being armed with the knowledge needed to make an informed decision. It was a poor choice of words, and I apologize for the confusion. I was not referring to bad actors in terms of foreign agents, people intentionally deceiving others, etc.

There certainly are some people, grifters, out there pushing misinformation for their own benefit. But it's not nearly enough to explain overall vaccine hesitancy numbers in the United States. Do you think that Hispanic people and black people are more vaccine hesitant because they watch Fox News or scroll through Facebook more than their richer, whiter counterparts? Seems unlikely.

Again, you appear to be missing the forest for the trees. Propaganda is out there, but it's only a fraction of the reason why people are vaccine hesitant. For most, it's because they have well-justified reasons for being skeptical of the institutions promoting these vaccines.

There's no easy answer to fix this problem. If we could magically get rid of Fox News, Facebook, Herschel's Tonics and Snake Oils, etc., it would be unlikely to make a big dent into the vaccine hesitancy. The only solution is years of the government, media, and the medical system working for everyone, including and especially for the poorest of us. Only then will people start trusting these institutions when they say something like a vaccine is urgently necessary.

Once again, bullshit.

The vax rates are slightly lower for blacks in some areas for various cultural reasons that are not connected to your Berner agenda so stop using them as political poker chips.

Plus that doesn't account for the majority of anti-vaccination which is rural whites in red States.

If you think more govt bureacracy in healthcare is going to make people who already distrust the govt suddenly trust the govt more....

You need work on this sales pitch.

 

[twabby]

Once again, bullshit.

The vax rates are slightly lower for blacks in some areas for various cultural reasons that are not connected to your Berner agenda so stop using them as political poker chips.

Plus that doesn't account for the majority of anti-vaccination which is rural whites in red States.

If you think more govt bureacracy in healthcare is going to make people who already distrust the govt suddenly trust the govt more....

You need work on this sales pitch.

You have what appears to be an unhealthy obsession with one Bernard Sanders. I am not sure why you keep bringing him up!

 

[HTFN]

The statistics are clear: kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-profile-of-the-unvaccinated/



By bad actors I meant people who chose not to get vaccinated despite being armed with the knowledge needed to make an informed decision. It was a poor choice of words, and I apologize for the confusion. I was not referring to bad actors in terms of foreign agents, people intentionally deceiving others, etc.

There certainly are some people, grifters, out there pushing misinformation for their own benefit. But it's not nearly enough to explain overall vaccine hesitancy numbers in the United States. Do you think that Hispanic people and black people are more vaccine hesitant because they watch Fox News or scroll through Facebook more than their richer, whiter counterparts? Seems unlikely.

Again, you appear to be missing the forest for the trees. Propaganda is out there, but it's only a fraction of the reason why people are vaccine hesitant. For most, it's because they have well-justified reasons for being skeptical of the institutions promoting these vaccines.

There's no easy answer to fix this problem. If we could magically get rid of Fox News, Facebook, Herschel's Tonics and Snake Oils, etc., it would be unlikely to make a big dent into the vaccine hesitancy. The only solution is years of the government, media, and the medical system working for everyone, including and especially for the poorest of us. Only then will people start trusting these institutions when they say something like a vaccine is urgently necessary.

Are you f***ing serious? You really think that? It's like you don't understand how propaganda works.

 

[g00n]

You have what appears to be an unhealthy obsession with one Bernard Sanders. I am not sure why you keep bringing him up!

Ok let's pretend your utopian "bsab cuz capitalism but socialism is the only solution" rhetoric is entirely of your own imagining and coincidentally aligned exactly with BS.

Makes no difference to the point, or the fact that you are trying to have it both ways regarding victimization and intelligence, just so you can spin the pandemic and antivaxxing into proof of your theory.

A familiar tactic by now.

 

[g00n]

Presenting as-is. Haven't vetted. If this guy is on the level (screenshots of his communications with the scammer are included) then it opens the door to all sorts of questions and problems.




So the poor, uneducated, oppressed masses are using sophisticated technological scams to circumvent the vaccine database for a few hundred bucks a pop? Hmmm.

The CDC recommendation to begin looking more closely at 8 month booster shots is based on undisclosed evidence about moderate (as opposed to mild) breakthrough cases due to possible waning immunity. I wonder how many of those particular cases might be people who faked vaccination records, since they would be shown in the system as fully vaccinated.

Either way this is not good for anyone.

 

[StrikingDistance]

Damn! I'm overseas and wanted to chime in on the religious zealot before he sacrificed himself to the internet God: Deletios Accountios.

I thought good Christians were supposed to be helping people? 'Love thy neighbor' etc instead of condemning everyone to hell?

It's readily apparent that our educational system is severely lacking when people graduate and can't discern fact vs fiction.

Anyway, back the the beach.

 

[kicksavedave]

Presenting as-is. Haven't vetted. If this guy is on the level (screenshots of his communications with the scammer are included) then it opens the door to all sorts of questions and problems.




So the poor, uneducated, oppressed masses are using sophisticated technological scams to circumvent the vaccine database for a few hundred bucks a pop? Hmmm.

The CDC recommendation to begin looking more closely at 8 month booster shots is based on undisclosed evidence about moderate (as opposed to mild) breakthrough cases due to possible waning immunity. I wonder how many of those particular cases might be people who faked vaccination records, since they would be shown in the system as fully vaccinated.

Either way this is not good for anyone.

Wonder how many people will get caught up in the fraud scheme? They usually go after the big fish, but all those people buying fake vax cards are putting the public at risk and committing fraud with their employers, and the public at large - think airlines which require proof of a vax or a negative test to travel to some places. Hopefully when the FBI gets involved they will track down customer lists and notify their employers. Instant termination.

 

[twabby]

Ok let's pretend your utopian "bsab cuz capitalism but socialism is the only solution" rhetoric is entirely of your own imagining and coincidentally aligned exactly with BS.

Makes no difference to the point, or the fact that you are trying to have it both ways regarding victimization and intelligence, just so you can spin the pandemic and antivaxxing into proof of your theory.

A familiar tactic by now.

How am I trying to have it both ways?

I am asserting that a significant percentage of those who have chosen not to get vaccinated are doing so because the institutions touting these vaccines (such as the federal government, pharmaceutical companies, the medical establishment, etc.) are untrustworthy in their eyes. With the history of these institutions and how they have wronged these (mostly poor) people in the past, I do not blame these people for not trusting these institutions. And without the necessary education, literacy levels, or access to experts, it isn't surprising to see large portions of the population choosing not to get vaccinated since it is quite difficult to analyze the information independently.

I'm interested in how the response to this pandemic could have been better, especially since we are staring down an even bigger crisis in climate catastrophe in the near future that will similarly require a collective buy-in from individuals across the world in order to tackle it. However I think the response to this pandemic from our population was inevitable, given our society and how it is set up to pit everyone against each other while the rich continue to grind us into dust. I don't think much would have been different if Hillary Clinton had won in 2016, for instance. Large percentages of people would still choose not to vaccinated, we still would have had insufficient lockdowns because capital demands that labor not get too comfortable, and our children would still be going back to school spreading COVID-19 and allowing the virus to mutate. We would still be restricting the distribution of vaccines to the rest of the world because pharmaceutical companies value their patents and profits overs the health of the world. Everything in this response has been baked in for decades.

The only way to prevent something like this from happening again going forward is to establish trust: trust with each other, trust with our institutions, and trust with the rest of the world. This is going to be a years, decades long task but it needs to start now. And yes, the only way to establish this trust is to have common goals going forward, which is impossible under capitalism.

 

[kicksavedave]

Leviticus 13:45-6

/thread

 

[Calicaps]

Functionally it is not expertise if it is not trusted. If someone does not trust the people providing the analysis and cannot for whatever reason (education, access to the data, etc.) independently analyze the data for themselves, then the "expertise" is useless and is basically just more noise.

Yes, a lot of poor people have decided to get vaccinated. I'm glad they have. But that doesn't mean that those who have decided not to get vaccinated are lesser people for not having come to the same conclusion. Perhaps they had a relative who was a Tuskegee experiment participant, or perhaps they were a victim of medical bankruptcy, or what have you.

Without examining why people became so mistrustful in the first place, no progress will be made. We need a cohesive, functional society that strives to make everyone thrive, rather than pitting us all against each other in a hyper-individualistic free-for-all.

If I'm an expert in something and you don't trust me, I'm still an expert. And your reasons for not trusting me are your own. I'm not to blame. You bear some responsibility for your own safety.

What precisely would have the experts do to win that trust? How do you expect them to overcome history on their own?

Meanwhile, like my friend Howard who died last week, those who have valid reasons for hesitating about the vaccine are also, generally those most likely to die of Covid, and they will be no less dead for having been right. Blaming today's experts for yesterday's failure doesn't save people.

 

[txpd]

An airline pilot is still an airline pilot even you dont believe they can fly. I am confident that there were people that didnt believe Oppenheimer knew what he was talking about, but that didnt effect his status as an expert. If you dont believe that Dr Fauci is an expert, that's your problem

 

[twabby]

If I'm an expert in something and you don't trust me, I'm still an expert. And your reasons for not trusting me are your own. I'm not to blame. You bear some responsibility for your own safety.

What precisely would have the experts do to win that trust? How do you expect them to overcome history on their own?

Meanwhile, like my friend Howard who died last week, those who have valid reasons for hesitating about the vaccine are also, generally those most likely to die of Covid, and they will be no less dead for having been right. Blaming today's experts for yesterday's failure doesn't save people.

Yes you'd still be an expert from a purely objective standpoint, but it doesn't matter if you aren't seen as trustworthy. "Experts" aren't to blame, and I suppose individuals are partially to blame for not making what I believe is the correct decision to get vaccinated, but ignoring or downplaying the societal impacts on people's decision-making will ensure that the response is the same (i.e. disastrous) the next time we need collective buy-in in order to solve a worldwide problem, such as the case with climate catastrophe or another pandemic.

The experts now can't do much of anything to change what has happened. I'm not saying it's the epidemiologist's fault that their recommendations are not being followed by large portions of the populace. As mentioned in my prior post, this response was inevitable as we have let capital completely run the show and pit us against each other. It's going to take decades of hard work rebuilding our society in order to gain the trust of the vast majority of population necessary to combat these global challenges. We ought to start now, and that necessarily includes opposing (and probably overthrowing) our capitalist oligarchy.

 

[txpd]

Seen as trustworthy by who?

Here is a movie dramatization of a room full of experts. Most have expertise in specific things. I am sure some people at the time didn't trust them. That didnt effect their status as experts.

 

[g00n]

How am I trying to have it both ways?

I am asserting that a significant percentage of those who have chosen not to get vaccinated are doing so because the institutions touting these vaccines (such as the federal government, pharmaceutical companies, the medical establishment, etc.) are untrustworthy in their eyes. With the history of these institutions and how they have wronged these (mostly poor) people in the past, I do not blame these people for not trusting these institutions. And without the necessary education, literacy levels, or access to experts, it isn't surprising to see large portions of the population choosing not to get vaccinated since it is quite difficult to analyze the information independently.

I'm interested in how the response to this pandemic could have been better, especially since we are staring down an even bigger crisis in climate catastrophe in the near future that will similarly require a collective buy-in from individuals across the world in order to tackle it. However I think the response to this pandemic from our population was inevitable, given our society and how it is set up to pit everyone against each other while the rich continue to grind us into dust. I don't think much would have been different if Hillary Clinton had won in 2016, for instance. Large percentages of people would still choose not to vaccinated, we still would have had insufficient lockdowns because capital demands that labor not get too comfortable, and our children would still be going back to school spreading COVID-19 and allowing the virus to mutate. We would still be restricting the distribution of vaccines to the rest of the world because pharmaceutical companies value their patents and profits overs the health of the world. Everything in this response has been baked in for decades.

The only way to prevent something like this from happening again going forward is to establish trust: trust with each other, trust with our institutions, and trust with the rest of the world. This is going to be a years, decades long task but it needs to start now. And yes, the only way to establish this trust is to have common goals going forward, which is impossible under capitalism.

You had the nerve to call me "obsessed". Ironic.

 

[g00n]

An airline pilot is still an airline pilot even you dont believe they can fly. I am confident that there were people that didnt believe Oppenheimer knew what he was talking about, but that didnt effect his status as an expert. If you dont believe that Dr Fauci is an expert, that's your problem

Oblig:

 

[g00n]

Yes you'd still be an expert from a purely objective standpoint, but it doesn't matter if you aren't seen as trustworthy. "Experts" aren't to blame, and I suppose individuals are partially to blame for not making what I believe is the correct decision to get vaccinated, but ignoring or downplaying the societal impacts on people's decision-making will ensure that the response is the same (i.e. disastrous) the next time we need collective buy-in in order to solve a worldwide problem, such as the case with climate catastrophe or another pandemic.

The experts now can't do much of anything to change what has happened. I'm not saying it's the epidemiologist's fault that their recommendations are not being followed by large portions of the populace. As mentioned in my prior post, this response was inevitable as we have let capital completely run the show and pit us against each other. It's going to take decades of hard work rebuilding our society in order to gain the trust of the vast majority of population necessary to combat these global challenges. We ought to start now, and that necessarily includes opposing (and probably overthrowing) our capitalist oligarchy.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

“Overthrowing our Capitalist Oligarchy”……let that one marinate….lol.

In favor of what?


It’s time to stop trying to shift blame and make excuses for others. Get vaccinated unless there’s a legit medical reason you can’t. Amateur MDs and Epidemiologists be damned.

 

[kicksavedave]

Twabby, its simpler than this. Dr Fauci was a widely respected expert, until he advocated for things that some people found politically unpopular, then he became a pariah, faced death threats, from those people who didn't like his advice, and his status as a trusted "expert" became purely a partisan issue. Politics is what's driving this resistance more so than most all those other factors you mention.

Also, it wasn't capital that demanded reopening, it was labor... People who were laid off were the ones who stormed the capital in Michigan and hung Gretchen Whitmer in effigy. Its the blue collar workers that Ron Desantis is playing to by keeping FLA open and unmasked and refusing mandates. Restaurant, hospitality and retail workers in places that closed due to lockdowns were hurt the most by it and they rebelled against the lockdowns the most. Capital, got bailed out by the Fed largely, as is always the case.

 

[kicksavedave]

Paraphrasing here: "Capitalism is the worst system of all.... except for all the other systems."

I'm a capitalist myself, but I do understand what causes revolutions. When the govt and the money says "let them eat cake" enough, revolution ensues. However, unlike old times when it was musket vs musket and sheer numbers mattered the most, today its a massive military vs a handful of armed zealots and the zealots have no chance whatsoever. Revolution in the US today, unlike in 1776, will only be political, maybe with scattered pathetic attempts at violence like Jan 6, it will be feeble and short lived and change virtually nothing.

Mostly, our modern revolution will just be bickering on internet forums and facebook griping. Then hotly contested elections, with power sloshing back and forth, until mother nature steps in and ends us all. Good times.