Coronavirus and the Washington Capitals Part 2

[txpd]

An incredibly large number of Americans do not have a doctor:

Declining numbers of Americans have a primary care provider

As of 2015 about 25% of Americans do not have a doctor, including 36% of 30-year olds per the article. I imagine the number is similar or worse in 2021, given the ever-rising costs of medical care and ever-declining wages and benefits provided to Americans. Many of these people simply cannot afford to go to the doctor (another failing of our institutions), so unfortunately your advice to just consult your doctor is not feasible for millions and millions of Americans.

Big deal. Deflection. You missed the net. Not what we are talking about. My general doc told me last week that the majority of his patients refuse the vaccine. Those people have a doctor.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

This interesting part for me and I just read some of this today, is the anti vax, ingest bleach, ingest deworming, its my right people have convinced themselves that the trouble is all being created by the smart people who are trying to control them.

It’s like a mass mental sickness among the people….

 

[g00n]

The question that should be posed is why should people trust the institutions that tout the vaccines as necessary? Have these institutions been trustworthy in recent memory? Why should people trust those who say the vaccine is great and necessary while also saying it's fine to herd our unvaccinated children back into schools like sardines in a can, for example? Why should black people trust the vaccine when they have been repeatedly screwed by our medical system, have been the subjects of gross medical experiments in the past, and have in general been repeatedly treated as second class citizens and subhuman by those saying they need to get vaccinated?

The anti-vax response was inevitable given our history. Blaming it on millions of stupid people without examining why these people so strongly believe what they do misses the point. Blaming it on Fox News or whatever other fringe media sources are out there without examining why these media sources were able to get such a foothold in our society is likewise inadequate.

I think the vaccines are safe and effective, but it's not because Democrats or the CDC or Pfizer or MSNBC tell me so. None of these institutions ought to be trusted, so it's understandable when those who don't have the time or expertise to parse all of the information available are skeptical when these untrustworthy institutions tout the vaccine as a lifesaver, even if it is true.

This is utter nonsense.

People have time and intelligence enough to suss out sophisticated theories about corporate malfeasance but not enough time or intelligence to understand the science? All while ignoring the fact that many of the players in this story are NOT monolithic faceless institutions but rather collections of professionally connected experts whose knowledge extends beyond Google?

Bullshit. It's disinformation-driven manipulation and intellectual laziness borne of generalized conspiracy paranoia and scapegoating. Full stop.

As usual you twist reality to fit your personal narrative/preference.

 

[g00n]

The shit show that is the American health care system is not an argument for or explanation of the rejection of expertise. It's like comparing apples and trash compactors.

This. It's anti-intellectualism, and ultracrepidarianism, that's been played upon by bad actors and fools. There are known sources for the covid-specific disinformation, and many of those sources align with general anti-vax campaigns from the past.

 

[kicksavedave]

An incredibly large number of Americans do not have a doctor:

Declining numbers of Americans have a primary care provider

As of 2015 about 25% of Americans do not have a doctor, including 36% of 30-year olds per the article. I imagine the number is similar or worse in 2021, given the ever-rising costs of medical care and ever-declining wages and benefits provided to Americans. Many of these people simply cannot afford to go to the doctor (another failing of our institutions), so unfortunately your advice to just consult your doctor is not feasible for millions and millions of Americans.

I have health insurance, really good HI in fact. I went to the local town clinic, and got the shot without showing insurance, or paying a dime. They had doctors there, and nurses, and techs, providing advice and guidance, for free.

"Its too expensive" is a dreadful excuse to avoid getting the shot. So it falls back into the previous categories, and if people mistrust institutions, they can and should do their own research, and/or find a local doctor and just ask the questions. Doctors will generally answer these questions without a deposit or health insurance... unless one lives in the absolute boonies, there is a free clinic or even urgent care where someone can go and just ask.

Using Facebook conspiracy groups or Twitter as one's primary source of medical guidance proves that survival of the most fit, and the dying out of those least fit, is in play here.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Nah.

‘puddin…..

An incredibly large number of Americans do not have a doctor:

Declining numbers of Americans have a primary care provider

As of 2015 about 25% of Americans do not have a doctor, including 36% of 30-year olds per the article. I imagine the number is similar or worse in 2021, given the ever-rising costs of medical care and ever-declining wages and benefits provided to Americans. Many of these people simply cannot afford to go to the doctor (another failing of our institutions), so unfortunately your advice to just consult your doctor is not feasible for millions and millions of Americans.

You must have a Doctorate in Goalpost Translocation Theory…..

 

[kicksavedave]

This. It's anti-intellectualism, and ultracrepidarianism, that's been played upon by bad actors and fools. There are known sources for the covid-specific disinformation, and many of those sources align with general anti-vax campaigns from the past.

Its also become known that many of the sources of bad vaccine information are coming from the same place as bad election information came from - mischievous foreign actors.

True fact, there are other countries that enjoy watching us tear ourselves apart. Its up to us to do our own basic fact checking when using FB or twitter for our information.

 

[g00n]

An incredibly large number of Americans do not have a doctor:

Declining numbers of Americans have a primary care provider

As of 2015 about 25% of Americans do not have a doctor, including 36% of 30-year olds per the article. I imagine the number is similar or worse in 2021, given the ever-rising costs of medical care and ever-declining wages and benefits provided to Americans. Many of these people simply cannot afford to go to the doctor (another failing of our institutions), so unfortunately your advice to just consult your doctor is not feasible for millions and millions of Americans.

And here you are once again trying to manipulate the issue to fit your general complaints.

The vaccine is free. The information about it is widely distributed. Public education is free and teaches how vaccines work. People choose their media sources, and many of those have long been known purveyors of bullshit.

Stop making excuses for willful stupidity and recklessness just so you can wedge the death of 600K people into a neat little Bernie Basket.

 

[twabby]

The shit show that is the American health care system is not an argument for or explanation of the rejection of expertise. It's like comparing apples and trash compactors.

It’s only expertise if the source is trusted. If the medical system has treated one unfairly for most of one’s life, and then all of a sudden they say here’s a vaccine that will save your life, and the vaccines are also touted by institutions that promote this healthcare inequity, isn’t some initial skepticism warranted?

It’s easy for us to sit here and comb through the data and come to the reasonable conclusion that these vaccines are indeed safe, but not everyone has the time or is even literate enough to reach these conclusions on their own. Many rely on other sources to tell them what the right thing to do would be. Sometimes it’s friends and family. Sometimes it’s Facebook. Sometimes it’s Herschel’s Tonics and Snake Oils.

So again, if you are for example a poor person with no healthcare, no doctor, no real way of doing independent research or the education to actually analyze research, and these same institutions who have screwed you over for your entire life are now telling you to get vaccinated, why should you listen?

I’m not making excuses for everybody. It’s just tiring to hear this framed as millions of independent bad actors instead of a systemic issue that will continue to plague us going forward, even after the pandemic is over. In particular, I fear that this same mindset will re-emerge when the effects of climate catastrophe really start to hit us. Instead of looking upward at who’s really to blame (capital), we’ll be fighting amongst ourselves because some people drive Priuses and some drive Canyoneros, for example.

 

[Calicaps]

And here you are once again trying to manipulate the issue to fit your general complaints.

The vaccine is free. The information about it is widely distributed. Public education is free and teaches how vaccines work. People choose their media sources, and many of those have long been known purveyors of bullshit.

Stop making excuses for willful stupidity and recklessness just so you can wedge the death of 600K people into a neat little Bernie Basket.

Unfortunately for all of us, the bullshit purveyors also, typically are free. While most outlets with nuance tend to charge. A financially strapped populace will tend to choose free bullshit over truth with a price. And the rational outlets end up preaching to an exclusive and largely unrepresentative slice of the choir.

 

[txpd]

It’s like a mass mental sickness among the people….

I was going to say that they havent set up a Kool Aid station yet but going out in Alabama or FL without a mask is pretty close to drinking the Kool Aid

 

[g00n]

It’s only expertise if the source is trusted. If the medical system has treated one unfairly for most of one’s life, and then all of a sudden they say here’s a vaccine that will save your life, and the vaccines are also touted by institutions that promote this healthcare inequity, isn’t some initial skepticism warranted?

It’s easy for us to sit here and comb through the data and come to the reasonable conclusion that these vaccines are indeed safe, but not everyone has the time or is even literate enough to reach these conclusions on their own. Many rely on other sources to tell them what the right thing to do would be.

So again, if you are for example a poor person with no healthcare, no doctor, no real way of doing independent research or the education to actually analyze research, and these same institutions who have screwed you over for your entire life are now telling you to get vaccinated, why should you listen?

I’m not making excuses for everybody. It’s just tiring to hear this framed as millions of independent bad actors instead of a systemic issue that will continue to plague us going forward, even after the pandemic is over. In particular, I fear that this same mindset will re-emerge when the effects of climate catastrophe really start to hit us. Instead of looking upward at who’s really to blame (capital), we’ll be fighting amongst ourselves because some people drive Priuses and some drive Canyoneros.

What percentage of novaxxers do you really think fit your poor, huddled, uneducated, victim status? Compared to those who I've described as willingly coming to their own conclusions using known bad media sources?

You're also contradicting yourself by complaining about the "bad actors" (which is real) yet excusing people for not getting good information. Which is it? Are they being manipulated and lied to or not? If they are and you don't blame them for it, who is doing it? And why?

Not a convincing argument.

 

[txpd]

It’s only expertise if the source is trusted.

Tom Nichols. Author of the Death of Expertise. Watch this clip. Please note that this is 2017 and listen to his references to people and doctors.

 

[Calicaps]

It’s only expertise if the source is trusted. If the medical system has treated one unfairly for most of one’s life, and then all of a sudden they say here’s a vaccine that will save your life, and the vaccines are also touted by institutions that promote this healthcare inequity, isn’t some initial skepticism warranted?

It’s easy for us to sit here and comb through the data and come to the reasonable conclusion that these vaccines are indeed safe, but not everyone has the time or is even literate enough to reach these conclusions on their own. Many rely on other sources to tell them what the right thing to do would be.

So again, if you are for example a poor person with no healthcare, no doctor, no real way of doing independent research or the education to actually analyze research, and these same institutions who have screwed you over for your entire life are now telling you to get vaccinated, why should you listen?

I’m not making excuses for everybody. It’s just tiring to hear this framed as millions of independent bad actors instead of a systemic issue that will continue to plague us going forward, even after the pandemic is over. In particular, I fear that this same mindset will re-emerge when the effects of climate catastrophe really start to hit us. Instead of looking upward at who’s really to blame (capital), we’ll be fighting amongst ourselves because some people drive Priuses and some drive Canyoneros.

Incorrect. It's expertise whether you choose to trust it or not. This is the problem. You mis-define expertise and then proceed on the basis of that flawed definition. Being a bad actor isn't correlated with expertise. One can claim to be an expert and be a lying sack of shit. One can be an expert and be a douche. But the expertise or lack of same is separate from the lying and douchery.

And I totally get that people have well-founded skepticism based on class and race. But the way you talk about those groups suggests you think they mostly are functionally illiterate morons who cannot think critically. That's false. Millions of poor people and people of color in this country have waded through the various legitimate influences and hesitations and come to the decision that the weight of science, including from tribal and Black sources, is clear and that the vaccine saves lives.

For me, the easiest analogy is climate change. I bet you believe that science and expertise. But the science and expertise you don't want to believe you find reasons to discount. Either you believe in science and the expertise that comes from extensive study and experience, or you don't. And if you only believe in those things when they align with your preferred worldview, then you don't believe in them.

 

[Calicaps]

Tom Nichols. Author of the Death of Expertise. Watch this clip.

Excellent. There's a correlated issue with this. Too much choice. Culturally, Americans believe more choice is better. So we insist on making all of our own choices. In some cases, it's minor, like choosing from the 8,000 iterations of a burger in the fast food space. But for the many significant choices, we lack the necessary expertise. So it creates enormous needless stress as people make critical life choices without sufficient information on top of the dozens of excessive small choices we make each day. And yet, if you try to take those choices away from people and put them in the hands of experts, people go nuts.

 

[txpd]

Excellent. There's a correlated issue with this. Too much choice. Culturally, Americans believe more choice is better. So we insist on making all of our own choices. In some cases, it's minor, like choosing from the 8,000 iterations of a burger in the fast food space. But for the many significant choices, we lack the necessary expertise. So it creates enormous needless stress as people make critical life choices without sufficient information on top of the dozens of excessive small choices we make each day. And yet, if you try to take those choices away from people and put them in the hands of experts, people go nuts.

There was a period in 90s/00s where the hip hop culture brought ridicule down on students that were successful. The more successful/smarter they were the worse the treatment. Conservatives(white folks) beat down the black community over this. Now, the same conditions are in play in the white community. If you are academically accomplished or a life long expert in a field, you are an elitist and you look down on the good common folk. You are out to get working class folks. You could call it the dirty jobs syndrome. These people often decry the lack of trade classes in high school and fight against encouraging students to go to college. Educated people are liberals and hate America and so on.

They think that educated elites and immigrants are out to take what they have and multi culturalism will takes whats left. Same people love their Mexican food on Wed. Thai on Friday and Chinese on Sunday.

 

[Calicaps]

There was a period in 90s/00s where the hip hop culture brought ridicule down on students that were successful. The more successful/smarter they were the worse the treatment. Conservatives(white folks) beat down the black community over this. Now, the same conditions are in play in the white community. If you are academically accomplished or a life long expert in a field, you are an elitist and you look down on the good common folk. You are out to get working class folks. You could call it the dirty jobs syndrome. These people often decry the lack of trade classes in high school and fight against encouraging students to go to college. Educated people are liberals and hate America and so on.

They think that educated elites and immigrants are out to take what they have and multi culturalism will takes whats left. Same people love their Mexican food on Wed. Thai on Friday and Chinese on Sunday.

The lack of trade classes is a real problem. God forbid any of us should need a qualified electrician 15 years from now. But yes. It's the anti-intellectualism @g00n mentioned earlier.

 

[txpd]

The lack of trade classes is a real problem. God forbid any of us should need a qualified electrician 15 years from now. But yes. It's the anti-intellectualism @g00n mentioned earlier.

The other irony is that these trade classes are now found in community college. The same people that demand these trade classes are the same one's against free community college

 

[txpd]

Of course I am a college educated snob from a home where my father went to RPI and my mother was one of the first women to go to Rice. So, what do I know. I am an elitist

 

[Calicaps]

Of course I am a college educated snob from a home where my father went to RPI and my mother was one of the first women to go to Rice. So, what do I know. I am an elitist

You are fancy! My mother is a first generation American and first woman in her family to go to college. My dad's dad was an electrical engineer by training but worked as an electrician and union leader all his life because Jews couldn't get jobs with engineering firms after WW2. But we're Jewish so elitist by definition.

 

[AussieCapsFan]

The other irony is that these trade classes are now found in community college. The same people that demand these trade classes are the same one's against free community college

Do those trades pay well in America? Electricians, plumbers, car mechanics?

In Australia they charge an obscene amount of money. $80 to $100 an hour.

Examples: I had two toilets replaced about a year ago. The plumber was here for 5 hours and it cost me $400 (that doesn't include the cost of the toilets)

My car service costs around $250 and about $180 of it is labour / time, which is about 1.5 hours.
I had an electrician install a new stove / oven about 3 years ago. 2 of them were here for about 3 hours and it cost me $500.

And no, it's not just me getting ripped off. They all charge these kind of exorbitant rates.

 

[txpd]

Schools opened here on Monday. Today they have already closed one elementary school because of a COVID outbreak.

 

[txpd]

Do those trades pay well in America? Electricians, plumbers, car mechanics?

In Australia they charge an obscene amount of money. $80 to $100 an hour.

Examples: I had two toilets replaced about a year ago. The plumber was here for 5 hours and it cost me $400 (that doesn't include the cost of the toilets)

My car service costs around $250 and about $180 of it is labour / time, which is about 1.5 hours.
I had an electrician install a new stove / oven about 3 years ago. 2 of them were here for about 3 hours and it cost me $500.

And no, it's not just me getting ripped off. They all charge these kind of exorbitant rates.

Six figure jobs here. People dont want them. The work is too hard

 

[txpd]

You are fancy! My mother is a first generation American and first woman in her family to go to college. My dad's dad was an electrical engineer by training but worked as an electrician and union leader all his life because Jews couldn't get jobs with engineering firms after WW2. But we're Jewish so elitist by definition.

Ok....(pulling up my shirt to show you a scar) my father designed the Wilson Bridge. Yup. Its our fault. My grandfather on my mother's side was was the architect that designed the Texas Schoolbook Depository. I know.

 

[Calicaps]

Ok....(pulling up my shirt to show you a scar) my father designed the Wilson Bridge. Yup. Its our fault. My grandfather on my mother's side was was the architect that designed the Texas Schoolbook Depository. I know.