Coronavirus and the Washington Capitals Part 2

[Calicaps]

This is a hockey forum. Obviously this is a topic that transcends the sport, so we are allowing a thread on it, but site rules still apply. Politics, personal attacks or insults, conspiracy theories, posting inappropriate comments, etc are still prohibited against sites rules and will be dealt with accordingly. If you cross the line you'll get banned from the thread.

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[Ridley Simon]

If you aren’t counting Polio, you aren’t comparing apples and oranges. The world hasn’t seen anything like COVID since Polio.

So any “rhetorical” question about recent vaccines and danger, really have nothing to do w COVID.

2 facts:

nothing “recent” is anywhere close to COVID

no vaccine has ever been pushed to the public as quickly as the COVID vaccine.

SIGH. In the end, this conversation is going nowhere.

It’s pretty simple. Those that want to dive into this vaccine should, and those that want to take a a longer approach, also should.

Disparaging either side is pure judgmental bullshit.

 

[Rayquaza64]

Just as long as if you dont get the vaccine you continue following protocols then not getting it is fine by me, but there is a reason that the vaccine is coming out so soon. No other vaccine has had universal attention and funding with this much technology avaliable, so they can produce it much faster. Besides, if they weren't at least 99.999999% sure that this vaccine is safe for humans to intake then i doubt they would rush it out. This virus is a serious matter and rushing out a vaccine would probably be the last thing we need at this point. Being cautious is fine, and so is getting the vaccine

 

[Ajax1995]

Just as long as if you dont get the vaccine you continue following protocols then not getting it is fine by me, but there is a reason that the vaccine is coming out so soon. No other vaccine has had universal attention and funding with this much technology avaliable, so they can produce it much faster. Besides, if they weren't at least 99.999999% sure that this vaccine is safe for humans to intake then i doubt they would rush it out. This virus is a serious matter and rushing out a vaccine would probably be the last thing we need at this point. Being cautious is fine, and so is getting the vaccine

Well the good news is even after getting the vaccine you are supposed to continue to take all the same precautions as you did pre-vaccine. So that’s nice...

And I’m not sure your level of doubt about what they would or wouldn’t do means much to me.

They absolutely rushed it out. But that in no way means it isn’t likely safe for the vast majority of people. But there is no longer term data. Nobody can argue that. Part of the usual vetting process for vaccines is longer term data for a reason. I understand why they chose to forgo that part of the usual process under the circumstances but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t prefer to have those data points when choosing whether to have my children get the vaccine or not.

 

[g00n]

Well the good news is even after getting the vaccine you are supposed to continue to take all the same precautions as you did pre-vaccine. So that’s nice...

And I’m not sure your level of doubt about what they would or wouldn’t do means much to me.

They absolutely rushed it out. But that in no way means it isn’t likely safe for the vast majority of people. But there is no longer term data. Nobody can argue that. Part of the usual vetting process for vaccines is longer term data for a reason. I understand why they chose to forgo that part of the usual process under the circumstances but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t prefer to have those data points when choosing whether to have my children get the vaccine or not.

What part of the process was skipped?

Vaccine Testing and Approval Process | CDC

Once a vaccine goes through Phase 3 and is approved it's generally not going to have long-term effects. Didn't we already go over this...

How many times has a major vaccine like this gone all the way to Phase 4 observation/marketing and then been pulled from the market due to adverse effects?

 

[alphabetical]

no vaccine has ever been pushed to the public as quickly as the COVID vaccine.

what other vaccines do you think aren't safe? You've reported a number of my comments, so just answer the ******* question already.

 

[Ridley Simon]

what other vaccines do you think aren't safe? You've reported a number of my comments, so just answer the ******* question already.

Oh spare me. I haven’t reported a single of your comments, people can read your shit talk for themselves.

Get over yourself. You can’t make comments to me like you did and then somehow think you have some rights to have engagement from me. Grow up. You don’t.

I don’t need to deal w (insert words I cannot use here) in life. I’m too old to deal with them, so I don’t.

Cheers buddy, and good luck in life. Have a good one.

 

[Eirikrautha]

What part of the process was skipped?

Vaccine Testing and Approval Process | CDC

Once a vaccine goes through Phase 3 and is approved it's generally not going to have long-term effects. Didn't we already go over this...

How many times has a major vaccine like this gone all the way to Phase 4 observation/marketing and then been pulled from the market due to adverse effects?

The LYMErix vaccine was discovered to have potential side effects in certain individuals (including serious autoimmune responses) and the CDC required an expanded Phase IV (as it was already past Phase III) enrollment. Since this happened right after the RotaShield vaccine was pulled due to confirmed cases of intussusception, GlaxoSmithKline pulled LYMErix from the market rather than expand the trials and fight public perception, especially once sales declined. They settled a class-action lawsuit, but denied the vaccine was dangerous. There's two examples for you of vaccines being pulled after Phase III. I'm sure someone will nitpick the reasons (though RotaShield was confirmed as the cause by the CDC) or the severity, blah, blah, blah (I look forward to the goalposts being moved), but this confirms it does happen, and has happened multiple times. It happens more than one would think; most people just don't hear about it unless it involves them personally...

 

[Ridley Simon]

What part of the process was skipped?

Vaccine Testing and Approval Process | CDC

Once a vaccine goes through Phase 3 and is approved it's generally not going to have long-term effects. Didn't we already go over this...

How many times has a major vaccine like this gone all the way to Phase 4 observation/marketing and then been pulled from the market due to adverse effects?

How many vaccines were of the same type as the COVID? That were engineered in the same manner? Honest question

 

[g00n]

The LYMErix vaccine was discovered to have potential side effects in certain individuals (including serious autoimmune responses) and the CDC required an expanded Phase IV (as it was already past Phase III) enrollment. Since this happened right after the RotaShield vaccine was pulled due to confirmed cases of intussusception, GlaxoSmithKline pulled LYMErix from the market rather than expand the trials and fight public perception, especially once sales declined. They settled a class-action lawsuit, but denied the vaccine was dangerous. There's two examples for you of vaccines being pulled after Phase III. I'm sure someone will nitpick the reasons (though RotaShield was confirmed as the cause by the CDC) or the severity, blah, blah, blah (I look forward to the goalposts being moved), but this confirms it does happen, and has happened multiple times. It happens more than one would think; most people just don't hear about it unless it involves them personally...

Context and details matter. You're citing 2 cases on the heels of each other, during the height of antivax hysteria, 20-25 years ago.

The RotaShield case was apparently a matter of known adverse reactions during the weeks of vaccination (3 doses) and not an unforseen "long-term" effect as one might expect to develop years down the road (like diabetes, etc). This was apparently seen in some trials but not statistically significant enough vs placebo. Out of an abundance of caution the vaccine was pulled, partly due to the optics and partly due to the relative ease of alternative measures (oral rehydration).

With LYMErix it was not a matter of Phase IV trials finding statistically significant side effects, contrary to your claim. Antivaxxers launched a media blitz and filed lawsuits which negatively impacted sales, which caused the vaccine to be pulled. The manufacturer and FDA and doctors testifying at the panel reviews all said there was no merit to the claims being made.

These are not nitpicks or moving goalposts, these are reasons why your examples don't meet the criteria for major vaccines found to have unexpected long-term, serious side effects after Phase III. If the COVID vaccines are found to cause intestinal folding in adults (no children are being vaccinated currently) in the weeks following vaccination as alleged with RotaShield we would already know about it. And the only way the vaccine goes the way of LYMErix is if people attack the manufacturer with false claims of medical problems despite the Phase IV results and it becomes a media/legal battle, which is not the same as finding serious, actual long-term side effects.

Any others?

 

[Ridley Simon]

Well the good news is even after getting the vaccine you are supposed to continue to take all the same precautions as you did pre-vaccine. So that’s nice...

And I’m not sure your level of doubt about what they would or wouldn’t do means much to me.

They absolutely rushed it out. But that in no way means it isn’t likely safe for the vast majority of people. But there is no longer term data. Nobody can argue that. Part of the usual vetting process for vaccines is longer term data for a reason. I understand why they chose to forgo that part of the usual process under the circumstances but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t prefer to have those data points when choosing whether to have my children get the vaccine or not.

Exactly all of this. Again, I don’t understand why anyone would have an issue with this approach. Not taking the vaccine (and again, I will) leaves those that aren’t taking it at risk. Not you. It does concern me with my children, so we will continue to take every current precaution to ensure they don’t contract it....including getting ourselves (my wife and I) vaccinated. But when it comes to my young children, who can’t make this decision for themselves (my oldest is 7, then 4 and 2), I’m not rushing out to get them vaccinated. We know this will mean they can’t go to normal school or lead a pre COVID life for now, and that’s ok. Their safety is the most important thing to us and we are looking to have them be the first round of children vaccinated for this.

so again, why does someone take issue with that?

 

[Ridley Simon]

Context and details matter. You're citing 2 cases on the heels of each other, during the height of antivax hysteria, 20-25 years ago.

The RotaShield case was apparently a matter of known adverse reactions during the weeks of vaccination (3 doses) and not an unforseen "long-term" effect as one might expect to develop years down the road (like diabetes, etc). This was apparently seen in some trials but not statistically significant enough vs placebo. Out of an abundance of caution the vaccine was pulled, partly due to the optics and partly due to the relative ease of alternative measures (oral rehydration).

With LYMErix it was not a matter of Phase IV trials finding statistically significant side effects, contrary to your claim. Antivaxxers launched a media blitz and filed lawsuits which negatively impacted sales, which caused the vaccine to be pulled. The manufacturer and FDA and doctors testifying at the panel reviews all said there was no merit to the claims being made.

These are not nitpicks or moving goalposts, these are reasons why your examples don't meet the criteria for major vaccines found to have unexpected long-term, serious side effects after Phase III. If the COVID vaccines are found to cause intestinal folding in adults (no children are being vaccinated currently) in the weeks following vaccination as alleged with RotaShield we would already know about it. And the only way the vaccine goes the way of LYMErix is if people attack the manufacturer with false claims of medical problems despite the Phase IV results and it becomes a media/legal battle, which is not the same as finding serious, actual long-term side effects.

Any others?

How many previous vaccines were engineered in the same manner as the COVID vaccine?

 

[g00n]

How many vaccines were of the same type as the COVID? That were engineered in the same manner? Honest question

Since you answered my question with a question I'll do the same: why would that matter? Do you have a scientific reason to suspect some long-term issue? The tech is not entirely new.

COVID-19 and Your Health

COVID-19 and Your Health (mRNA vaccines)

Unless you are severely immune compromised (like one of my relatives) then this should not cause concern.

 

[g00n]

Exactly all of this. Again, I don’t understand why anyone would have an issue with this approach. Not taking the vaccine (and again, I will) leaves those that aren’t taking it at risk. Not you. It does concern me with my children, so we will continue to take every current precaution to ensure they don’t contract it....including getting ourselves (my wife and I) vaccinated. But when it comes to my young children, who can’t make this decision for themselves (my oldest is 7, then 4 and 2), I’m not rushing out to get them vaccinated. We know this will mean they can’t go to normal school or lead a pre COVID life for now, and that’s ok. Their safety is the most important thing to us and we are looking to have them be the first round of children vaccinated for this.

so again, why does someone take issue with that?

WHO IS TALKING ABOUT VACCINATING CHILDREN?

Are you all watching the same news shows or something. NOBODY is talking about that right now. It's months away at least.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Since you answered my question with a question I'll do the same: why would that matter? Do you have a scientific reason to suspect some long-term issue? The tech is not entirely new.

COVID-19 and Your Health

COVID-19 and Your Health

Unless you are severely immune compromised (like one of my relatives) then this should not cause concern.

View attachment 395907

The answer is zero, I believe. It’s a brand new means to do so. So it’s the first.

reason I ask, is I don’t understand how we can try and use historical data or arguments on something that hasn’t been tried before. You can’t.

we can quote as many opinion pieces as we want, but it doesn’t change the facts that no one really knows. If you want to blindly trust the authorities on this, then you can. But the realities is they are also applying historical knowledge and process belief on something that’s never happened before.

this is all a leap of faith, when you boil it down. It just is. No one has any true long term clinical results to fall back on. They don’t. None of us do.

 

[Ridley Simon]

WHO IS TALKING ABOUT VACCINATING CHILDREN?

Are you all watching the same news shows or something. NOBODY is talking about that right now. It's months away at least.

You haven’t been reading the thread then, g00n. There have been a few posters that have disparaged others for not intending to immediately vaccinate children. Not every post in this thread was written by you (hard to believe, I know). Months away will still have this same discussion. Those months won’t convince my wife and I to vaccinate our kids. So it’s topically relevant to this overall discussion.

And good lord, YOU DONT NEED TO YELL.

 

[g00n]

The answer is zero, I believe. It’s a brand new means to do so. So it’s the first.

reason I ask, is I don’t understand how we can try and use historical data or arguments on something that hasn’t been tried before. You can’t.

we can quote as many opinion pieces as we want, but it doesn’t change the facts that no one really knows. If you want to blindly trust the authorities on this, then you can. But the realities is they are also applying historical knowledge and process belief on something that’s never happened before.

this is all a leap of faith, when you boil it down. It just is. No one has any true long term clinical results to fall back on. They don’t. None of us do.

This is not opinion piece bingo, it's the consensus among the scientific community rather than google experts who are afraid of the tech.

Five things you need to know about: mRNA vaccine safety

Read the link.

 

[g00n]

You haven’t been reading the thread then, g00n. There have been a few posters that have disparaged others for not intending to immediately vaccinate children. Not every post in this thread was written by you (hard to believe, I know). Months away will still have this same discussion. Those months won’t convince my wife and I to vaccinate our kids. So it’s topically relevant to this overall discussion.

And good lord, YOU DONT NEED TO YELL.

I have been reading the thread. Who is saying vaccinate kids right now? One guy who attacked you?

 

[Ridley Simon]

This is not opinion piece bingo, it's the consensus among the scientific community rather than google experts who are afraid of the tech.

Five things you need to know about: mRNA vaccine safety

View attachment 395908

Read the link.

I have read it. There is no real data in its mass usage. There just isn’t. “Studies” doesn’t equal mass assignment.

Again, if you want full buy in for you and your family, you can. No problem from me. But the goalposts are moving here, as we have seemingly gone from trying to use previous vaccines, which have close to zero historical comparison to this current vaccine, as a means to prove the new vaccine is “safe”. We don’t know that yet. We just don’t.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I have been reading the thread. Who is saying vaccinate kids right now? One guy who attacked you?

no one is saying right now, but when it’s available for children. You aren’t hearing me.

A few people mentioned it, and many posts have been deleted.

 

[g00n]

no one is saying right now, but when it’s available for children. You aren’t hearing me.

A few people mentioned it, and many posts have been deleted.

Nobody mentioned it unless it was that ONE guy whose posts were deleted. The only discussion of kids that predates you and others protesting against vaccinating kids right now was CCR posting a link to Fauci saying approval for children could come in the fall. That's not anyone here putting pressure on you to vaccinate your kids now.

 

[g00n]

I have read it. There is no real data in its mass usage. There just isn’t. “Studies” doesn’t equal mass assignment.

Again, if you want full buy in for you and your family, you can. No problem from me. But the goalposts are moving here, as we have seemingly gone from trying to use previous vaccines, which have close to zero historical comparison to this current vaccine, as a means to prove the new vaccine is “safe”. We don’t know that yet. We just don’t.

What you're really saying is you don't trust the science or the process, and you'll let other people be the guinea pigs for the vaccine in the wild for X amount of time. Ok, I don't agree with the first part but you can adhere to the latter as long as you don't expect the full protection and access of those who are vaccinated.

How much time has to pass for you to say "we know" there are no long-term effects? What is the metric...how do you prove something like that several years-on? How many cases out of 10,000 are acceptable and at what margin of error? How many years of that?

 

[Ridley Simon]

Nobody mentioned it unless it was that ONE guy whose posts were deleted. The only discussion of kids that predates you and others protesting against vaccinating kids right now was CCR posting a link to Fauci saying approval for children could come in the fall. That's not anyone here putting pressure on you to vaccinate your kids now.

Sure there are. Read it again. There are posters stating that everyone should vaccine their kids as soon as possible. I don’t need to name them, as it’s ok that they feel that way.

it should also be ok for parents to want to wait.

I will be direct: will you have a problem with parents that want to wait to vaccinate their kids (and I’m talking about when it’s available, not today, obviously). When the time comes, and some parents want to wait beyond that, how will you feel?

this should end this part of our discussion.

 

[g00n]

Sure there are. Read it again. There are posters stating that everyone should vaccine their kids as soon as possible. I don’t need to name them, as it’s ok that they feel that way.

it should also be ok for parents to want to wait.

I will be direct: will you have a problem with parents that want to wait to vaccinate their kids (and I’m talking about when it’s available, not today, obviously). When the time comes, and some parents want to wait beyond that, how will you feel?

this should end this part of our discussion.

See my post above.

Can you link to the comments you're talking about?

 

[Ridley Simon]

What you're really saying is you don't trust the science or the process, and you'll let other people be the guinea pigs for the vaccine in the wild.

How much time has to pass for you to say "we know" there are no long-term effects? What is the metric...how do you prove something like that several years-on? How many cases out of 10,000 are acceptable and at what margin of error? How many years of that?

I will be a guinea pig. I’ve said that. But I won’t allow my children to be. Huge distinction. You are seemingly meshing them together.

same as some parents are fine sending their kids to school, and others aren’t.

And I don’t know how long. Which really isn’t relevant here.