Coronavirus and the Washington Capitals Part 2

[HeyMattyB]

 

[txpd]

To believe these claims without evidence is irrational and Sinophobic in the case of China. The Sinophobia is made clearer by

A couple of straightforward questions to set context. I hope you don't mind giving basic yes or no ish answers.

Is the South China Sea Chinese territorial waters or international waters?
Should the United States defend freedom of navigation of those waters?

Taiwan and Hong Kong. Is Taiwan a free and independant nation and should the US defend them against aggression from China?
Should China stand by its two systems agreement with Hong Kong and if they don't, should the US support the overwhelming desire of the people of Hong Kong to remain democratic?

Curious what you say.

 

[HeyMattyB]

Anyway, at this point we're probably well past the line of getting into...

 

[txpd]

Everyone? Who says everyone?

 

[txpd]

Capitalism=Perceived value. Chicomms=Actual value

 

[g00n]

It's not so much giving them the benefit of the doubt, it's more that I am not going to make wild unsubstantiated claims without at least a shred of evidence. I'm also not saying that the United States is wildly misrepresenting their numbers, though like China they are probably fudging them a bit.

I think freedom is a subjective term. How free are we really? Well, it depends mostly on how much money you have. If you're poor, you don't have much freedom at all! You can't get healthcare, you can't afford a home, you can't afford nutritious food, you can't afford an education, you can't afford transportation, you can't afford to have a child (or two or three). That doesn't sound very free or fulfilling to me. I guess I'm free to die or become homeless!

I don't hate living among those who disagree with me. You're not the enemy and you're not bad, even if you are defending a system that is. As I mentioned earlier capital has pit us against each other so that we aren't looking up at the true cause of our problems. I'm not falling for that trap.

You realize that poverty and suffering and corruption exists in every system of government and every society in history, right?

 

[Calicaps]

Folks, watch the politics.

 

[g00n]

Why should we not trust China's word? Oh I don't know. They're one of the most locked down, oppressive regimes in the world when it comes to free speech and are well-known global actors in terms of espionage and political maneuvering, both HUMINT and cyber.

They're probably the biggest players in the hacking and cyber espionage space, with Russia and the US close behind. As a government and associated subordinate infrastructure, they are not friends to our country beyond what is necessary for trade and avoiding hostilities.

There are mountains of information on this. It's not some myth or phobia. It has nothing to do with Chinese people as a race or culture. It's the way their system is leveraged, and suspicion of their claims and motives are 100% consistent with IC and independent analysis of their actions at home and abroad.

Everything you need to know about human rights in China 2020 | Amnesty International

Freedom of Expression in China: A Privilege, Not a Right | Congressional-Executive Commission on China

Mass surveillance in China - Wikipedia

Some people in the USA may think things here are unbelievably rough and in some areas they're certainly problematic or even screwed, but there's no real comparison between us and China when it comes to transparency and freedom of information. To think the two are equal is just proof of one's unrecognized privilege.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Amy Coney Barrett strikes surprising killer blow against vaccine mandate defiance — Newsweek


A group of eight students at Indiana University sought an emergency injunction from the Supreme Court against their college's vaccine mandate. In her role supervising the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, Barrett reviewed the motion and denied it.

Barrett chose not to refer the matter to the full nine-justice court and offered no explanation for her decision in a move that could have wider implications for vaccine mandates across the nation.

Good, curb stomp that crap.

Old news bud

 

[Ridley Simon]

The "China is covering up staggering amounts of death, no I don't have any proof" talking point usually comes up when cases in the United States peak due to the incompetence and callousness of the American government, and we need reassurance that our hyper-individualistic and capitalist society is doing much better than those dirty communists.

I'd love some proof, any proof that China is covering up their numbers to any significant degree. I'm willing to buy that China is fudging their numbers a bit, just as pretty much every country is fudging their numbers including the United States. But not to the degree that we can say their response to the pandemic has been poor, or anywhere near the disaster that the US's response has been.

Feel free to also speculate about the origins of the virus despite there again being no proof that this was a lab leak or a bioweapon or anything of that nature if it'll distract you from the disaster that is the United States.

You want proof that China is covering up something? Like specific to this — or just how they’ve been proven to act over the past however many decades?

come on twabs. Governments like theirs never ever ever tell the truth. It’s an affront to how you should govern.

I support some of what you talk about. I mean that sincerely.

however counting on good data from a place like China is massively hypocritical if you won’t trust data from our own nation. Be it big pharma or big business is nothing compared to Imperialist China.

Were you around for the Cold War 80’s? We saw all the same stuff from the USSR that we see from China today. A LOT is disinformation to further their agendas.

does US do it too? Probably. Is it like what we’ve seen historically in other parts of the world?

please say NO. So we can at least get a baseline for communication here

 

[g00n]

You want proof that China is covering up something? Like specific to this — or just how they’ve been proven to act over the past however many decades?

come on twabs. Governments like theirs never ever ever tell the truth. It’s an affront to how the govern.

I support some of what you talk about. I mean that sincerely.

however counting on good data from a place like
China is massively hypocritical of you won’t trust data from our own nation. Be it big p

Rids I think you need to put another quarter in your phone your posts keep getting cut off

 

[twabby]

A couple of straightforward questions to set context. I hope you don't mind giving basic yes or no ish answers.

Is the South China Sea Chinese territorial waters or international waters? This is disputed, and importantly we are not a part of that dispute.

Should the United States defend freedom of navigation of those waters? No, especially if you are talking about the threat or use of military force.

Taiwan and Hong Kong. Is Taiwan a free and independant nation and should the US defend them against aggression from China? This is disputed, and importantly we are not a part of that dispute. No we should not defend them, especially if you are talking about the threat or use of military force.

Should China stand by its two systems agreement with Hong Kong and if they don't, should the US support the overwhelming desire of the people of Hong Kong to remain democratic? This is for Hong Kong and China to work out. Importantly, we are not a part of that dispute. No, the US should not support this effort, especially if it includes any threat or use of military force.

Curious what you say.

My answers are above in bold.

In general, the United States as it stands is not an altruistic or trustworthy partner on the world stage. As such, we should not meddle in other countries' affairs because we tend to just make things worse (intentionally or not). Whether it be through war, crippling sanctions or embargoes (which can be just as violent as war), clandestine operations such as the vast CIA involvement in overthrowing leftist regimes in South America, or any other foreign involvement, the United States almost exclusively makes things worse when they get involved abroad, at least since World War II.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Rids I think you need to put another quarter in your phone your posts keep getting cut off

I get freaking “re-uploaded” on this damned site every few minutes.

so if I don’t save it and keep going, it all gets lost.

the site is a mess

 

[Ridley Simon]

My answers are above in bold.

In general, the United States as it stands is not an altruistic or trustworthy partner on the world stage. As such, we should not meddle in other countries' affairs because we tend to just make things worse (intentionally or not). Whether it be through war, crippling sanctions or embargoes (which can be just as violent as war), clandestine operations such as the vast CIA involvement in overthrowing leftist regimes in South America, or any other foreign involvement, the United States almost exclusively makes things worse when they get involved abroad, at least since World War II.

Ok— but as opposed to who? Who fits this bill for you, assuming the US doesn’t?

Anyone?

 

[HeyMattyB]

lol nevermind

 

[twabby]

You realize that poverty and suffering and corruption exists in every system of government and every society in history, right?

Yes that's correct, however the degree of poverty and suffering and corruption is different between them. Capitalism promotes inequality and necessitates large amounts of poverty, for instance.

Why should we not trust China's word? Oh I don't know. They're one of the most locked down, oppressive regimes in the world when it comes to free speech and are well-known global actors in terms of espionage and political maneuvering, both HUMINT and cyber.

They're probably the biggest players in the hacking and cyber espionage space, with Russia and the US close behind. As a government and associated subordinate infrastructure, they are not friends to our country beyond what is necessary for trade and avoiding hostilities.

There are mountains of information on this. It's not some myth or phobia. It has nothing to do with Chinese people as a race or culture. It's the way their system is leveraged, and suspicion of their claims and motives are 100% consistent with IC and independent analysis of their actions at home and abroad.

Everything you need to know about human rights in China 2020 | Amnesty International

Freedom of Expression in China: A Privilege, Not a Right | Congressional-Executive Commission on China

Mass surveillance in China - Wikipedia

Some people in the USA may think things here are unbelievably rough and in some areas they're certainly problematic or even screwed, but there's no real comparison between us and China when it comes to transparency and freedom of information. To think the two are equal is just proof of one's unrecognized privilege.

So this means you can just make any extraordinary claim you want about China and it's true? How many people do you think are dead of COVID in China? A few thousand? A few million? A hundred million? You can say any number and I guess it's true because there's no way to verify!

It's also odd that you don't mention how the United States is probably the most destabilizing force in the world right now but are quick to mention China as a leader in terms of espionage and political maneuvering. I advise you to take a look inward at our glorious homeland.

 

[txpd]

My answers are above in bold.

In general, the United States as it stands is not an altruistic or trustworthy partner on the world stage. As such, we should not meddle in other countries' affairs because we tend to just make things worse (intentionally or not). Whether it be through war, crippling sanctions or embargoes (which can be just as violent as war), clandestine operations such as the vast CIA involvement in overthrowing leftist regimes in South America, or any other foreign involvement, the United States almost exclusively makes things worse when they get involved abroad, at least since World War II.

Dude. You are doing that thing. I know its disputed. I was asking YOUR take. It will remain disputed. I am interested to see that you dont support the US defending Taiwan or the freedom of navigation of the SCS. You therefore are not willing to do anything to resist China using military force, which is what they are doing.

BTW. We are part of that dispute. As a large scale trader in that part of the world we use that waterway. Vietnam and the Philippines and Malaysia all are effected as of course is Taiwan. Additionally the United States has defense agreements with these nations and others like New Zealand and Australia to provide naval forces in that region.

Of course the US has a defense treaty with Taiwan. I dont think letting the Russians take The Crimea was a good idea. Allowing the Chinese to use force in the areas above would be very dangerous. It does put you in a very pro Chinese position even though we are sure you will say you didnt say that.

 

[HTFN]

Yes that's correct, however the degree of poverty and suffering and corruption is different between them. Capitalism promotes inequality and necessitates large amounts of poverty, for instance.



So this means you can just make any extraordinary claim you want about China and it's true? How many people do you think are dead? A few thousand? A few million? A hundred million? You can say any number and I guess it's true because there's no way to verify!

It's also odd that you don't mention how the United States is probably the most destabilizing force in the world right now but are quick to mention China as a leader in terms of espionage and political maneuvering.

Lol do you work for the NBA or the WWE or something?

 

[g00n]

LOL

Everyone is playing the same game, or trying to. Some countries do it better than others.

Of course we screw with other countries. Of course we interfere and spy. Every country does it. If you think otherwise you're naive.

So it boils down to your own interests as a nation and people, and how you're able to interact on the world stage with all the other countries trying to do the same to you. Some countries become your allies and rarely use their powers maliciously (though they may still spy), while others are actively trying to step on your neck as a known secret, even as you put up diplomatic fronts for trade and treaty purposes. Russia, China, Iran and NK are in the latter group.

Game theory at the highest level is not subject to utopian idealism.

 

[g00n]

Yes that's correct, however the degree of poverty and suffering and corruption is different between them. Capitalism promotes inequality and necessitates large amounts of poverty, for instance.



So this means you can just make any extraordinary claim you want about China and it's true? How many people do you think are dead of COVID in China? A few thousand? A few million? A hundred million? You can say any number and I guess it's true because there's no way to verify!

It's also odd that you don't mention how the United States is probably the most destabilizing force in the world right now but are quick to mention China as a leader in terms of espionage and political maneuvering. I advise you to take a look inward at our glorious homeland.

You're not telling me anything about the USA I don't already know, son. See my post above.

Stop moving the goalposts. I don't need to come up with a certain number to withhold trust.

 

[txpd]

Yes that's correct, however the degree of poverty and suffering and corruption is different between them. Capitalism promotes inequality and necessitates large amounts of poverty, for instance.



So this means you can just make any extraordinary claim you want about China and it's true? How many people do you think are dead? A few thousand? A few million? A hundred million? You can say any number and I guess it's true because there's no way to verify!

It's also odd that you don't mention how the United States is probably the most destabilizing force in the world right now but are quick to mention China as a leader in terms of espionage and political maneuvering.

Hmm...I always enjoy these kind of chats. We have a system where I came up with an idea to use a skill that I have in an underserved market that resulted in financial success. So, I drive more than one car and have more than one home. Its always interesting for me to find out that I have too much because someone else has less and that I need to give some of it back for the greater good.

This is a particularly interesting chat on a hockey website where are players make millions of dollars on teams owned by billionaires because people with disposable income spend ridiculous amounts of money on their favorite teams. All while other people are on food stamps. At the same time those people on food stamps are provided free COVID vaccines but not taking it and dying as a resulted is understandable.

Yes, I have a headache

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Old news bud

I was wondering….didn’t check date. Thought it was new….

 

[g00n]

Hmm...I always enjoy these kind of chats. We have a system where I came up with an idea to use a skill that I have in an underserved market that resulted in financial success. So, I drive more than one car and have more than one home. Its always interesting for me to find out that I have too much because someone else has less and that I need to give some of it back for the greater good.

This is a particularly interesting chat on a hockey website where are players make millions of dollars on teams owned by billionaires because people with disposable income spend ridiculous about of money on their favorite teams. All while other people are on food stamps. At the same time those people on food stamps are provided free COVID vaccines but not taking it and dying as a resulted is understandable.

Yes, I have a headache

It's especially fun watching Twabby take the player side in any owner/player dispute while also being willing to cast aside members of that union if the stats he prefers don't measure up, regardless of actual value to the team. Interesting dilemma.

Maybe a boycott of all these rich athletes is in his future. I'm sure they all have plenty of capital. Christ, the f***ing TEAM is called the "Capitals". That's got to be painful. lol

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Everyone? Who says everyone?

that’s right….nobody said everyone.

 

[txpd]

LOL

Everyone is playing the same game, or trying to. Some countries do it better than others.

Of course we screw with other countries. Of course we interfere and spy. Every country does it. If you think otherwise you're naive.

So it boils down to your own interests as a nation and people, and how you're able to interact on the world stage with all the other countries trying to do the same to you. Some countries become your allies and rarely use their powers maliciously (though they may still spy), while others are actively trying to step on your neck as a known secret, even as you put up diplomatic fronts for trade and treaty purposes. Russia, China, Iran and NK are in the latter group.

Game theory at the highest level is not subject to utopian idealism.

People spy at every level. Information is power. The Chinese are ridiculously talented and effective and cast a very wide net of interests with the intellegence work. Thats bad. Right? They should stop and pay a price for doing it? How would you enforce that? China doesnt want to spill the beans on COVID so the only way to learn the required information to defend ourselves from it is to take what they are not willing to give. You dont support doing that. Right? We should take their word for it. Right?

Ah....Thats why when the Caps say a guy who looked like he blew his knee out is listed as day to day and the trainers havent evaluated him yet and the coach says that he hasnt talked to his star player or the trainers himself. You take their word for it. We dont know what the team function was the Kuznetsov and Samsonov were late to or missed and we dont know why they were late for it or missed it and we dont even know if they were 5 minutes late or didnt show up at all. We would disapprove of someone using their contacts and sneaky means to discover those details tell us what really happened. Right? And now we have come full circle. Leave Kuzy alone. Tell the Chicomms who know what happened