OT: Coronavirus and General O/T Thread

[jkutswings]

Any critics of evolution, and they were always on shaky ground, had their views caved in completely when DNA sequencing arrived on the scene. DNA sequencing has shown, without fail the same result every single time - common ancestors that can be cleanly traced via genomes.

Every person is free to believe what they choose, but I never understood the massive resistance to the notion that evolution and creationism are not mutually exclusive. If an all-powerful entity created the universe and everything in it, then I'd think that creating living things that could adapt and evolve over time would be a logical and advantageous thing.

I believe that faith and reason have a lot of room to work together if people are willing to have respectful dialogue about it.

 

[Bench]

Umm, there are plenty of highly qualified people in the science field who believe the opposite of you on this issue. Scientists disagree on stuff all the time, and both sides have equal qualifications.

What's true: scientists disagree all the time.
What's not true: both sides are equal.

When two lawyers argue their case in court, are these arguments created equal because both went to Harvard law? Or is it the volume of evidence each can present?

What makes better scientific arguments stick is reputable, peer-reviewed journal publications, and with results that can be replicated. The last part is super important. What typically drives consensus among experts is when research can be reproduced. Because there are so damn many publications and nobody can possibly read them all, there are actually teams devoted to doing what's called meta-analysis. These folks take all the relevant research to a specific topic and attempt to boil it down to the best conclusions (using math/stats) from all those papers. Those types of analysis then drive the information used to make changes in areas like medicine.

So what I'm saying is, equal qualifications don't mean equal weight should be given. You need to have those opinions hold up to rigor from other folks in the field and prove meaningful over subsequent studies.

When you see community consensus reached on big issues, like climate change, it usually means the overwhelming amount of research is pointing one direction. You will always find dissenting opinions from people with tremendous credentials. But if those folks are in a minority, due to lack of replication or rigor, the notion of placing them on equal footing is dismissing one of the fundamentals of research - replication.

 

[Bench]

Every person is free to believe what they choose, but I never understood the massive resistance to the notion that evolution and creationism are not mutually exclusive. If an all-powerful entity created the universe and everything in it, then I'd think that creating living things that could adapt and evolve over time would be a logical and advantageous thing.

I believe that faith and reason have a lot of room to work together if people are willing to have respectful dialogue about it.

Had a professor say something along those lines, which I will paraphrase here, on the first day of an introductory level course:

"If you're struggling with some of the concepts due to your personal beliefs, remember that this could have all been part of the divine plan."

 

[jkutswings]

Speaking of COVID-19, science, and replication:

Debunking the False Claim That COVID Death Counts Are Inflated

 

[Run the Jewels]

Had a professor say something along those lines, which I will paraphrase here, on the first day of an introductory level course:

"If you're struggling with some of the concepts due to your personal beliefs, remember that this could have all been part of the divine plan."

It's quite humorous how quickly they switch to relativism when the facts don't fit their worldview.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

"Just a Theory": 7 Misused Science Words



You're being trapped by the word theory, a common issue, so you're not alone. What makes evolution a fact in the science world, among virtually everyone, is the overwhelming amount of evidence behind it. Evidence that has been collected and reproduced by countless authors over generations around the world. When something holds firm over, and over, and over, and over... the debate among reputable folks dies fast.

Any critics of evolution, and they were always on shaky ground, had their views caved in completely when DNA sequencing arrived on the scene. DNA sequencing has shown, without fail the same result every single time - common ancestors that can be cleanly traced via genomes.

Im not using theory incorrectly. I know what it means in science. There are scientific theories with very little substantiation and there are some, like evolution, that have a lot of substantiation. But let me be clear, a theory is UNPROVEN. They are not fact. Theories are either proven or rejected. Until one of those things happens it remains a scientific theory.

a theory is just a testable prediction. Can we stop now? Do you have a degree? You need a degree to be qualified to talk about these things. Because no one can be knowledgeable on a subject without a degree.

 

[jkutswings]

It's quite humorous how quickly they switch to relativism when the facts don't fit their worldview.

But can you see how somebody who subscribes to creationism might see your language as dismissive? Or that there might be a wide spectrum of discussion between evolutionists and creationists, as opposed to lumping everybody on one side into the collective "they"?

Not all creationists think science is unnatural or dangerous. Not all evolutionists think anything they cannot see or touch is automatically a fairy tale. There's a spectrum and room to better articulate and understand each perspective.

 

[Run the Jewels]

But can you see how somebody who subscribes to creationism might see your language as dismissive? Or that there might be a wide spectrum of discussion between evolutionists and creationists, as opposed to lumping everybody on one side into the collective "they"?

Not all creationists think science is unnatural or dangerous. Not all evolutionists think anything they cannot see or touch is automatically a fairy tale. There's a spectrum and room to better articulate and understand each perspective.

What makes your beliefs special? Why shouldn't we teach the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

 

[jkutswings]

What makes your beliefs special? Why shouldn't we teach the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

I never claimed they my beliefs deserve more of the spotlight than anybody else's. On the contrary, I'm claiming that everybody is free to hold their own beliefs equally and to disagree equally - provided it's done in a respectful manner.

So to further your example, anybody on the planet can indeed teach the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Just do so without outright ridiculing other views.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

"Just a Theory": 7 Misused Science Words



You're being trapped by the word theory, a common issue, so you're not alone. What makes evolution a fact in the science world, among virtually everyone, is the overwhelming amount of evidence behind it. Evidence that has been collected and reproduced by countless authors over generations around the world. When something holds firm over, and over, and over, and over... the debate among reputable folks dies fast.

Any critics of evolution, and they were always on shaky ground, had their views caved in completely when DNA sequencing arrived on the scene. DNA sequencing has shown, without fail the same result every single time - common ancestors that can be cleanly traced via genomes.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

If it is so darn contagious how come their is a mega church in the US that has over 7000 people attend their weekly services without face-masks and without social distancing and exactly zero people from that church have anything related to Covid. Something so deadly contagious wouldn't have 7000 people all in the same small part of the world and none of them are catching it. My aunt in her mid 60s who catches everything, including 2-3 flus every single year, has Type 1 diabetes and many other ailments came into contact with someone who had covid and she didn't catch it. If anyone could catch it she would be the one that would and yet nothing. Or how about that virtually everyone that gets it not only survives but have basically nothing more than the flu. Do you wear masks and refrain from normal living for the flu or any of the other contagions that could make you sick. There are countless things in the air known for causing all kinds of cancers, do you wear masks and refrain from normal living for those. Also want to add, the flu which has a cure kills 50-60,000 people every season.

That doesn't even begin to touch that most (95+%) of the people who have it seriously and have passed on were 70+ with known medical conditions.

It doesn’t just spontaneously appear in those who don’t have it because they gather with a lot of people. That’s why things like the bubble were successful for the NHL. They set up protocols to ensure healthy players did not go out and interact with anybody but people who were known to not have the virus. Lo and behold, they played a couple months of hockey with no transmission. The bubble burst and Tampa went to their public and lo and behold, the virus popped up in their parade.

It is blind luck that people aren’t contagious when they go to that 7,000 person mega church.

I mean no, it isn’t like if you are within 6 feet of a person who has Covid, you’re going to die. You just massively increase your chance to contract and spread it. But if Debbie does Dallas and neither Debbie nor Dallas have any Covid in their systems, they can f***ing go to down and do the raunchy stuff and they won’t get sick. At least from Covid.

 

[jkutswings]

Debbie Does Dallas has been used as a reference in explaining the science of infectious diseases. Now I've seen it all.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

The purpose of social distancing and mask wearing is so that your hospitals don't become overwhelmed.. You have to slow down the spread of the virus because there simply aren't enough doctors/health care workers (I live in the United States), to treat everyone that gets the virus. Failure to do so will result in even more deaths because it will delay people from seeking treatment for more life threatening conditions.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I never claimed they my beliefs deserve more of the spotlight than anybody else's. On the contrary, I'm claiming that everybody is free to hold their own beliefs equally and to disagree equally - provided it's done in a respectful manner.

So to further your example, anybody on the planet can indeed teach the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Just do so without outright ridiculing other views.

Great, so I hope you can understand that there is no truth if we need to teach everyone's unique beliefs as being equal and special.

 

[jkutswings]

Great, so I hope you can understand that there is no truth if we need to teach everyone's unique beliefs as being equal and special.

That's a different argument.

I'm saying that I can believe truth is objective, and that not all beliefs align with that to the same degree, yet still respect one's right to hold a belief I happen to disagree with.

Another example:

I'd guess that the majority of posters here would agree that the Earth is round. Yet for various reasons, there are people who contend that it is flat. Do I agree with the belief that the Earth is flat? No. But I'd rather engage in a dialogue with somebody who thinks that way than to treat them as less of a human being, even if I think there's an overwhelming pile of evidence that contradicts their belief.

And in a practical sense, an approach of dialogue stands a better chance of convincing somebody of my line of thinking - or at least them respecting my right to hold said thinking, and agreeing to disagree - than if I say they're a cotton headed ninny muggins for disagreeing with me.

 

[MBH]

Like all coronaviruses, this coronavirus is seasonal.
Coronavirus seasons typically run November through April.

We're seeing legit signs of spread again... not just testing-driven case counts.
Michigan's ICU count dropped to 130 as of sept.24.
It's now up to 300+
Ventilator use was down to 50. It's now up to 112.
If there's a positive sign here, it's that the growth doesn't seem exponential... but it has been consistent.

 

[lilidk]

We Have election in 2 week . Most people I know voting for Trump

 

[Bench]

Im not using theory incorrectly. I know what it means in science. There are scientific theories with very little substantiation and there are some, like evolution, that have a lot of substantiation. But let me be clear, a theory is UNPROVEN. They are not fact. Theories are either proven or rejected. Until one of those things happens it remains a scientific theory.

a theory is just a testable prediction. Can we stop now?

No, we can't stop because you're still not articulating the actual definition. Here's the relevant bits:

Part of the problem is that the word "theory" means something very different in lay language than it does in science: A scientific theory is an explanation of some aspect of the natural world that has been substantiated through repeated experiments or testing.

Note the key differences between this definition and yours. You say things that are "unproven" remain theories by definition. That's not true.

Theories, in science, can be considered fact and are substantiated.

Do you have a degree? You need a degree to be qualified to talk about these things. Because no one can be knowledgeable on a subject without a degree.

I value education, but I don't think it's required to have good discussions about these topics if both parties are being sincere in their goals.

But to answer your question, yes, I do have a science degree. I work in academic research.
My partner is a research scientist who works in genetics and disease models, so I'm lucky to have her as a resource I lean on heavily as well.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I'd guess that the majority of posters here would agree that the Earth is round. Yet for various reasons, there are people who contend that it is flat. Do I agree with the belief that the Earth is flat? No. But I'd rather engage in a dialogue with somebody who thinks that way than to treat them as less of a human being, even if I think there's an overwhelming pile of evidence that contradicts their belief.

No one is less of a human being for being wrong, the question is how do you determine who is wrong or right? You seem to think there is no way and we need to treat everyone's views and being valid.

 

[jkutswings]

No one is less of a human being for being wrong, the question is how do you determine who is wrong or right? You seem to think there is no way and we need to treat everyone's views and being valid.

I think there's a lot to unpack here, but most of it depends on whether you mean "wrong or right" in the legal sense or the philosophical one.

Legally, every belief system is protected by the First Amendment (assuming we're talking about the United States, and assuming the expression of said belief system does not infringe on anybody else's rights).

Philosophically? That's a VERY long and complicated discussion. Honestly, I don't know how the arena of an internet message board could possibly do it justice. I'm not saying I want to dodge the topic altogether, but people around the world have pored over this one for millennia, so the Red Wings HF Board probably isn't going to reach any sort of consensus or major enlightenment in quick fashion.

But since I don't want to take a Coronavirus OT thread 100 percent off the rails, for now I'll just say that if you're truly curious about what types of logic and reasoning could possibly support a fath-based belief system, then I could share some resources via PM.

 

[Red Stanley]

Actually, I have not looked at the death totals from other diseases this year. Could you list them? I'm curious as to how many of them are communicable, you know, like Covid? I don't really worry about catching cancer or malaria when I go to the store so I'm curious to see the list to support the relevance of your argument.

Now, I'm going to help you with your use of the word "pandemic". I have it in quotes to signal the subject matter at hand. You have it in quotes to purport increduality of the legitimacy of the word. A pandemic is a disease that is spread over multiple countries. I'd say covid qualifies. I get the feeling it would take a worldwide spread of ebola and bodies in the streets to satiate you as a legit pandemic though. No one said this was "The Stand".

Last point, the world is not locked down. It may feel that way since so many countries are banning travel from Murica, the covid capitol of earth. What are you missing out on right now?

Up until 2009 that definition included "and has a high mortality rate", which the WHO removed in order to escalate swine flu into a pandemic. Would covid fall into that category under the classical definition? Food for thought.

 

[RabidBadger]

Up until 2009 that definition included "and has a high mortality rate", which the WHO removed in order to escalate swine flu into a pandemic. Would covid fall into that category under the classical definition? Food for thought.

I'll kick it old school with you. What's the last infectious disease in the U.S. to kill 250k in 10 months? Seems like a high mortality rate.

 

[MBH]

People have become very intolerant in dismissive of opposing views.
There's a sneer and bite in everything.
Yes, we have nutso rightwingers who love to flirt with revolutionary concepts and worship their guns - and that's concerning.
It's also impossible to ignore the increasing authoritarianism of the corporate left.
If the social media networks censoring anti-Biden stories doesn't raise alarm bells for you, you might be more fascist than you imagine.

 

[Red Stanley]

Every person is free to believe what they choose, but I never understood the massive resistance to the notion that evolution and creationism are not mutually exclusive. If an all-powerful entity created the universe and everything in it, then I'd think that creating living things that could adapt and evolve over time would be a logical and advantageous thing.

I believe that faith and reason have a lot of room to work together if people are willing to have respectful dialogue about it.

Humans lack the scientific knowledge to disprove creationism. I'm not talking strictly about religious mythology here. There are plenty of other possibilities that would qualify as creationism that we simply can't claim to be impossible as of right now. A non-religious person doesn't have the luxury of leveraging faith to support their argument.

 

[Red Stanley]

I'll kick it old school with you. What's the last infectious disease in the U.S. to kill 250k in 10 months? Seems like a high mortality rate.

According to the CDC, covid has a mortality rate of approximately 0.65%.