OT: Coronavirus 3 - wait but Covid 19 is SARS-CoV-2

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Lempo

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Frustrating. Masks are one of those protective measures that are relatively easy to take and can have a potentially large impact. Even in the absence of conclusive evidence, it seems like sensible public policy to mandate masks widely and monitor the results. Worst case, the results are negligible or inclusive. Best case, we see dramatic improvement and can potentially reopen more/faster/more safely as a result. I don't get it.

Througout the spring, my domestic high officials have been publicly very adamant that masks are useless for the common people and will help naught.

The assumption is that they have been trying to quell the demand so that there would be more to for the healthcare personnel.
 
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MrazeksVengeance

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Througout the spring, my domestic high officials have been publicly very adamant that masks are useless for the common people and will help naught.

The assumption is that they have been trying to quell the demand so that there would be more to for the healthcare personnel.

MY MOTHER WAS A TAILOR. SHE SEWED MY NEW BLUE MASK.

She's actually pharmaceutical rep, she just knows how to sew.
 

Finnish Jerk Train

lol stupid mickey mouse organization
Apr 7, 2008
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I just don't see what you have to lose by wearing one. Obviously, there are certain situations (eating, playing sports, dentist visits, etc.) where it's not practical, and there should absolutely be other countermeasures in place when a mask won't work. It's not a cure-all, but it's a good first step. There's enough reason to believe a mask can drastically slow this down and let us get back to something resembling our lives, but it only works if enough people buy in. We'll never get there if half the population is walking around without one. Sure, maybe one day we'll have a vaccine, but this is something we can do today to help ourselves out while we wait.

The message in March that masks don't help was wrong. Whatever the reason for it, it was wrong. I didn't believe it then, and I still have yet to hear a convincing argument as to why I shouldn't wear one. This country's response has been a massive clusterf*** from top to bottom, but the body of knowledge around the virus continues to grow. It's never too late to start doing better.
 

Joe McGrath

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MrazeksVengeance

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Yeah, they say cloth masks are something like 70% effective for just the person wearing it. If everyone actually wore them it’s be damn near impossible for mass transmission of it.

“Freedom” is much more important though. I think I should have the freedom to no longer wear pants. Nothing wrong with that, right?

Well, I am not stopping you from wearing skirts am I?
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
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ad 1 - never trust China
ad 2 - rushing stuff often delays stuff

Ad 1: True, but the article wasn't just about China.

"Adding to the concern, Italy is fighting new outbreaks of its own, Iran and India have reported worrying increases in deaths and infections and the pandemic is gathering pace in Latin America."

"Brazil now has the second-highest number of virus deaths after the United States, and the Chilean health minister resigned on the weekend amid a furor over the country's true number of fatalities."

On the positive side, all these countries and the medical communities "should" be more able to handle things now, although as someone mentioned earlier, how it affects medical workers WRT being burned out remains to be seen.
 

Svechhammer

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Just heard in a meeting this morning that my company is preparing for North Carolina to rescind any Phased openings and return to full lockdown this week.

which is swell
 

Novacane

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I was just about to ask if any state has downgraded their Phased openings. Can’t say it’s a bad idea with the way things are going for specific states

It’s weird how some states go in opposite directions. I haven’t been too in touch with specific phase descriptors but to my understanding, Ohio and NC are very similar in what you can/should do at the moment. But Ohio continues to trend down in cases while NC continues to grow. I’m wondering specifically why this happens. Is it the total number of infected when reopening? Is it NC tourism picking up? Is it test availability? Is it willingness to get tested? ....
 

MinJaBen

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Just heard in a meeting this morning that my company is preparing for North Carolina to rescind any Phased openings and return to full lockdown this week.

which is swell

Do you know why they expect this? Just following numbers, well placed source, or something else?
 

tarheelhockey

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Really struggling to see how universities are going to go back to "normal" come August.

Never mind universities. They’re reasonably self-contained.

Elementary, middle, and high schools. If those go back to in-person instruction in the fall, we may as well consider COVID containment Over. If they don’t, we may as well consider major sectors of the economy Over.
 

AD Skinner

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Mar 18, 2009
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Just heard in a meeting this morning that my company is preparing for North Carolina to rescind any Phased openings and return to full lockdown this week.

which is swell
The governor is supposed to make a statement at 2 today. Not saying I have any info on what it is but I wouldn't be surprised if it involves what you say.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Never mind universities. They’re reasonably self-contained.

Elementary, middle, and high schools. If those go back to in-person instruction in the fall, we may as well consider COVID containment Over. If they don’t, we may as well consider major sectors of the economy Over.

They may be more self-contained than elementary/middle/high schools, but by I wouldn't call them reasonably self-contained. Students don't just sit in a dorm or a classroom (well, maybe some do). Many have jobs they need to work at to afford school. Many live at home while attending class. They all socialize in various ways. They go to bars (if open) and restaurants. They all come back for breaks and if they live locally, even more frequently. etc... It's a much worse environment than attending a concert for 2 hours or going to a movie theater.

Agree that elementary/middle/high will be a worse situation though. I don't have elementary/middle/high school aged kids so my post was more aimed at my own situation.
 

tarheelhockey

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They may be more self-contained than elementary/middle/high schools, but by I wouldn't call them reasonably self-contained. Students don't just sit in a dorm or a classroom (well, maybe some do). Many have jobs they need to work at to afford school. Many live at home while attending class. They all socialize in various ways. They go to bars (if open) and restaurants. They all come back for breaks and if they live locally, even more frequently. etc... It's a much worse environment than attending a concert for 2 hours or going to a movie theater.

The thing about universities, they can actually pivot to remote learning and true social distancing. Even if a campus is totally closed, classes can still take place and can still be decent quality. If campuses open, it’s realistic to integrate virtual meetings and social distancing.

(Of course this does nothing to stop 20-year-olds from licking doorknobs on a dare and cramming 50 people into their beach rental. But that’s already actively happening, because 20-year-olds)

IMO, if universities were smart they’d treat this as another “virtual” year with campus housing open for students who have no other option (e.g. international, homeless). At this point faculty are actually prepared and students have some experience of how to live within that dynamic. The decision to re-open is being driven by profit centers like athletics and food service, and they’ll pay the price for that if they have to shut down again in mid-year.

Agree that elementary/middle/high will be a worse situation though. I don't have elementary/middle/high school aged kids so my post was more aimed at my own situation.

Problem with K-12 is there’s no realistic way to contain COVID there. They can say whatever they want about having new rules in place... it absolutely will not matter. A week after the first non-symptomatic carrier goes to school, the entire school will be infected. Because kids are gross and half of them are really dumb.

Something like 25% of households have K12-aged kids. Let’s say... a month after schools open, it’s a fair bet that 25% of households will be exposed. At that point, there’s no quarantine anymore.

The alternative to opening schools is to keep 25% of households locked down at least another year. A huge portion of that group is not able to do their jobs from home. The choices from that point forward look pretty grim.

Wake County provided an update last week... they still don’t know what they’re going to do in the fall. An announcement is supposed to be made in July, but there’s no good choice on the table. The worst of this is for people with vulnerable adults at home. Grandparents who are working 9-5 to raise a kindergartner? Good luck.
 

tarheelhockey

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One other thought on universities:

A little over a century ago, America went through a phase where higher ed was democratized with the founding of hundreds of small private colleges aimed at historically excluded groups and the white middle class. Over the following century, as the "establishment" desegregated and became more accessible (pay no attention to debt) most of those smaller institutions have struggled to stay alive. Women's colleges, HBCUs, teachers' colleges, and other small privates have largely disappeared or merged or stayed alive by the skin of their teeth.

With COVID, those schools with large endowments are probably going to make it. Those who were already in a perilous position... they are in a bad spot. From both the pandemic standpoint and the economic-recession standpoint, this is going to force a lot of them over the edge.

As someone who went to a small private (which I hope will survive), it occurred to me the other day that this may be the inflection point in history where these smaller schools are replaced by online universities as the primary option for the middle class. That's potentially a major shift in the economics and culture of the nation, especially since larger publics tend to follow these trends in due time.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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The thing about universities, they can actually pivot to remote learning and true social distancing. Even if a campus is totally closed, classes can still take place and can still be decent quality. If campuses open, it’s realistic to integrate virtual meetings and social distancing.

True. That's what I was referring to. If they go back and have in person classes, not remote/virtual learning which won't be an issue. I agree universities could pivot quicker to remote leaning though, particularly since that's what they've been doing so they could react more quickly.

(Of course this does nothing to stop 20-year-olds from licking doorknobs on a dare and cramming 50 people into their beach rental. But that’s already actively happening, because 20-year-olds)

It's happening in small sub segments, but it's not even close to happening like it would if you send almost 15 million college students back to campuses all at once after they've been mainly cooped up at home with their parents for 6 months. Parents can prevent elementary/middle and to some extent high school students from being dumb, but there's no stopping college students, particularly with alcohol involved.

IMO, if universities were smart they’d treat this as another “virtual” year with campus housing open for students who have no other option (e.g. international, homeless). At this point faculty are actually prepared and students have some experience of how to live within that dynamic. The decision to re-open is being driven by profit centers like athletics and food service, and they’ll pay the price for that if they have to shut down again in mid-year.

Agree 100%


Problem with K-12 is there’s no realistic way to contain COVID there. They can say whatever they want about having new rules in place... it absolutely will not matter. A week after the first non-symptomatic carrier goes to school, the entire school will be infected. Because kids are gross and half of them are really dumb.

Something like 25% of households have K12-aged kids. Let’s say... a month after schools open, it’s a fair bet that 25% of households will be exposed. At that point, there’s no quarantine anymore.

The alternative to opening schools is to keep 25% of households locked down at least another year. A huge portion of that group is not able to do their jobs from home. The choices from that point forward look pretty grim.

Wake County provided an update last week... they still don’t know what they’re going to do in the fall. An announcement is supposed to be made in July, but there’s no good choice on the table. The worst of this is for people with vulnerable adults at home. Grandparents who are working 9-5 to raise a kindergartner? Good luck.

All true. The one plus is parents have control over what these kids do while not in school, which is not the case at all for college age students.

Either way, I agree with you that in person classes for middle/elementary/high school would likely be a worse situation than college, I just disagree with the notion that College is relatively self contained (if they go back to in person classes).
 
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tarheelhockey

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@tarheelhockey Timely article on WRAL.

Wake County discusses 3 options for 2020-21 school year :: WRAL.com

  • Plan A: All students in the classroom
  • Plan B: Limited capacity in the classroom
  • Plan C: Continued remote learning

Something that just hit me after clicking through to the DHHS recommendation list:

Today's schools have a hair trigger for kids showing symptoms of anything. As a kid I think I went home sick once or twice in my entire elementary school career. If I was sick they told me to put my head down or go get some water, and the day carried on.

Fast forward to being a 3x dad. Frankly, I got to the point of not answering the phone when the school called, because 90% of the time it was "X says he has a headache and needs to lie down. Can you come pick him up?" at which point I would remind the administrator that I work for a living and no, I cannot pick him up any time in the next 4 hours. At which point I could feel the hate seething through the phone. So I just resorted to letting it go to VM and not returning the call unless I heard the word "fever". Eventually they stopped calling. In the last 1.5 school years my kids have 1 combined absence for an actual contagious illness.

Which is all to say... working parents of kids under 10 are gonna have a HELL of a time trying to complete a workday in this environment. They are going to be sending kids home at the sound of a fart, and keeping them out. K-3 kids sniffle and cough constantly. They eat ****ing dirt, they do not care about hygiene. Having a kid in the system is going to very quickly turn into half-time home schooling.

The more I think about all of this, I don't see how it's even remotely practical to re-open schools. At least, not unless we're ready to make a hard pivot from "flatten the curve" to "herd immunity".
 
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