Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Got 2... should have got 3-4.

[Jaded-Fan]

Micah telling us what we already knew. Pens dominating 5 vs. 5 play but letting too many of the few shots that they allow in. True not just this game.

 

[Son Goku]

Hilarious that yinzers only blame Murray as if he's supposed to post a shutout every night. Put blame on the talent discrepancy because of injuries.

 

[EightyOne]

Hilarious that yinzers only blame Murray as if he's supposed to post a shutout every night. Put blame on the talent discrepancy because of injuries.

Yeah...but eh..goal 4...eh...makes it reaaaaaaal easy to hate on.

You can argue every goalie gets beat high glove. You can argue every goalie gets screened.

You cant argue wtf he was doing on Egypt on that last one. That isn't a play 92.7% of the other goalies in the league will do.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Pens are 4th in the metro yet 3rd in
The NHL with their 15 goal differential. With all of these injuries.

Make sense out of that.

Really need a win tomm with Jarry letting in 1(or even better, a shutout). Keep that solid play going. Even tho this is now his 3rd time with us on a b2b when the other team isnt.

Seems like the story of this season...

Murray gets a better shot at a win, doesn't.
Jarry gets shafted, impresses at every turn/save.

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed, but the Pens seem to also play a little better in front of Jarry, that usually happens when a team feeds off their goalie and his play. Looks like the Pens are a little weary of Muzz in net right now, he hasn't been terrible, but he sure as hell hasn't been as good as he should be and that's been going on for about 2yrs now, the inconsistency is nuts.

And people still want to move Jarry?

Lol

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Hilarious that yinzers only blame Murray as if he's supposed to post a shutout every night. Put blame on the talent discrepancy because of injuries.

Unlike the fans, that mock those Yinzers, that still hate Fleury for some reason, a guy that was so royally shafted his first few years, that anyone that likes him for how his career has gone so far, is a clown apparently, but the blind love and respect that Murray gets, even when he shits the bed like it's an R Kelly after party, people stumble over themselves to make excuses?

Can't go both ways bud.

Also, Jarry has out played him so badly, the coaching staff looks like real f***ing morons for keeping Jarry on the bench during long stretches, losing 2pts in that process, out of their own ignorance.

I want to like Murray, but ever since he spazzed out like a giant baby when the Canucks lit his ass up about Boeser being lucky or something, something about him hasn't sat well with me, I still think he can get back to being elite, but I would not move Jarry at all until I see that consistency out of him, which I have a sneaking suspicion...might not happen. I'd love to be proven wrong.

That was a stinker of a final goal by Murray.

I am still pissed off at that Kakko deke goal.

The slowest f***ing deke, telestrated to f***ing death...still beats his ass.

 

[madinsomniac]

Im not as down on Murray as some here...don’t get me wrong as a guy who was adamant that jarry had long term potential to be better than Murray, I’d be fine if he surplanted Murray especially now that the big contract is due, but i still think Murray can easily be a top ten goalie in the league, maybe higher...
I’m not sure why his fundamentals have been less than when he started out... i tend to blame coaches...him getting his guy installed here as GT coach seems to maybe be a mistake

 

[Burn]

I think the charts above show the entire story. Murray has to face a ridiculous amount of shots from prime ice. I dont think any goalie would do better behind this D.

They play a little more solid for Jarry but the D is really flawed. That starts with the over aggressive play on every puck. Teams know to keep a man wide and they take advantage.

 

[JTG]

I'm not down on Murray but I also recognize that Jarry needs to play. He's earned that right. They should be platooning right now.

 

[Rossi Rat]

Really? The same "great team" that got knocked out in the first round last April? What do I know, I could just care less about pursuing the President's Cup.

Honestly, I had some pause in defining them as “great” - but still the same contenders? And better than the Penguins, anyway. Someone did this exercise in another thread, but:

Sid vs Ovi - wash (maybe edge Sid but he misses more games with injuries)

Malkin vs Kuznetsov - Kuz

Carlson vs Letang - Carlson

Backstrom vs McCann (yes that’s the comparison we have to make) - obviously Backstrom though McCann has played well

Oshie vs Guentzel - Oshie

Murray vs Holtby - Holtby

Hornqvist vs Wilson - Wilson

Vrana vs Rust - Vrana

Etc. They’re simply better.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

I thought MM was awful on both the Isles' OT goals this week. Which is disappointing because he played so well in regulation.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

Honestly, I had some pause in defining them as “great” - but still the same contenders? And better than the Penguins, anyway. Someone did this exercise in another thread, but:

Sid vs Ovi - wash (maybe edge Sid but he misses more games with injuries)

Malkin vs Kuznetsov - Kuz

Carlson vs Letang - Carlson

Backstrom vs McCann (yes that’s the comparison we have to make) - obviously Backstrom though McCann has played well

Oshie vs Guentzel - Oshie

Murray vs Holtby - Holtby

Hornqvist vs Wilson - Wilson

Vrana vs Rust - Vrana

Etc. They’re simply better.

Malkin is better than Kuz. Don't know how anyone can argue otherwise.
Oshie vs Guentzel- Guentzel is pretty easily better. Again, I have no idea how anyone can argue Oshie here.
Perhaps Carlson is better this year but Letang has been better throughout their careers. Sure you need to factor in injuries but on ice play is clearly Letang until this season.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Unlike the fans, that mock those Yinzers, that still hate Fleury for some reason, a guy that was so royally shafted his first few years, that anyone that likes him for how his career has gone so far, is a clown apparently, but the blind love and respect that Murray gets, even when he ****s the bed like it's an R Kelly after party, people stumble over themselves to make excuses?

Can't go both ways bud.

Also, Jarry has out played him so badly, the coaching staff looks like real ****ing morons for keeping Jarry on the bench during long stretches, losing 2pts in that process, out of their own ignorance.

I want to like Murray, but ever since he spazzed out like a giant baby when the Canucks lit his ass up about Boeser being lucky or something, something about him hasn't sat well with me, I still think he can get back to being elite, but I would not move Jarry at all until I see that consistency out of him, which I have a sneaking suspicion...might not happen. I'd love to be proven wrong.


I am still pissed off at that Kakko deke goal.

The slowest ****ing deke, telestrated to ****ing death...still beats his ass.

• Murray peaked during the Stanley Cup runs.
• He was pre-prime then in theory. In practice goalie progressions are different/weirder due to the highly mental nature of the position
• Murray is currently average to slightly above at this point in time and I have no desire to pay him >$5M/year.
• Having said that, he did face great looks against from the parts of the game I've been able to see. The Penguins let up far too many good chances for my liking.
• I want to see more Jarry this year with the big club.
• I also believe DeSmith is a borderline NHL starter as well.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hilarious that yinzers only blame Murray as if he's supposed to post a shutout every night. Put blame on the talent discrepancy because of injuries.

I like how you try to portray any criticisms towards Murray as "yinzers expecting him to post a shutout every night".

I don't know what's more infuriating, the Fleury fanboys who **** on Murray at every occasion or the Murray fanboys who refuse to criticize him at all.

I think the charts above show the entire story. Murray has to face a ridiculous amount of shots from prime ice. I dont think any goalie would do better behind this D.

They play a little more solid for Jarry but the D is really flawed. That starts with the over aggressive play on every puck. Teams know to keep a man wide and they take advantage.

That was true last night, that's not true on the season overall.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

There's really no downside to giving Jarry more starts, to be honest. Gives us a chance to see how Jarry does with an increased workload, gives Murray healthy competition, gives Murray rest so he doesn't get injured and/or burn out as the season winds down.

Play the hot hand, approach this team as if we have a goalie tandem right now.

 

[Empoleon8771]

To add, here's how Murray ranks in the NHL among starters with more than 10 games:

• Save%: .907, 18th of 31 starters
• 5v5 save%: .909, 22nd of 31 starters
• 5v5 Goals saved above average: -3.39, 24th of 31 starters
  
• 5v5 Goals saved above expectation: -7.54, 27th of 31 starters
  
• Average goal distance: 29.03 ft, longest distance among starters

He's just been bad this year. Trying to "whataboutism" him into being good doesn't change that his numbers are below average while he's getting some of the easiest shots against in the NHL.

 

[Burn]

Malkin is better than Kuz. Don't know how anyone can argue otherwise.
Oshie vs Guentzel- Guentzel is pretty easily better. Again, I have no idea how anyone can argue Oshie here.
Perhaps Carlson is better this year but Letang has been better throughout their careers. Sure you need to factor in injuries but on ice play is clearly Letang until this season.

I like Jake but Oshie is downright awesome in a Kunitz kinda way. Does so much more than his stats.

 

[Icarium]

Most of our team is working their asses off and then some of our players make really dumb mistake and all this work go to waste. I don't think Murray was as bad as most posters seem to think but he used to be one of the best in the business at closing out games and now he is terrible at it. Too many stupid penalties. Thank god Horny scored one of his typical goals to salvage a point. Now we need to beat the freaking Devils and the week would actually be a success points-wise despite all the heartbreaks. But we probably won't. With the way Malkin and Rust are playing, we can beat anyone but those dumb mistakes are killing us.

Also, Dumo on the PP?!? Why?

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Murray's first 14 starts he was 9-3-1 with a 916 save percentage.

now his last 5 starts 1-1-3, 899 save percentage.

not sure why people are freaking out over a little slump. its what goalies do.

and those OT goals are such gimmicky. like if the Pens just happened to score first in OT, his stats would look a bit better.

Forget the stats

Does MM look like a goalie who's mechanics are sound or he's reading the play correctly lately?
His confidence is in the toilet right now.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Im not as down on Murray as some here...don’t get me wrong as a guy who was adamant that jarry had long term potential to be better than Murray, I’d be fine if he surplanted Murray especially now that the big contract is due, but i still think Murray can easily be a top ten goalie in the league, maybe higher...
I’m not sure why his fundamentals have been less than when he started out... i tend to blame coaches...him getting his guy installed here as GT coach seems to maybe be a mistake

Every goalie today goes through rough stretches. It’s ok for us to admit Murray is hurting them right now, but people have to always go overboard and be too reactionary.

Holtby was dog shit their cup year, got replaced, then won his job back in the playoffs, got hot and won a ring.

That’s just the perfect example of NHL goaltending in today’s era.

Just play the hot hand and if Murray is the best goalie, he will eventually find his way back in there.

I doubt Jarry goes on some season long Vezina run where Murray can’t win his cage back.

There's really no downside to giving Jarry more starts, to be honest. Gives us a chance to see how Jarry does with an increased workload, gives Murray healthy competition, gives Murray rest so he doesn't get injured and/or burn out as the season winds down.

Play the hot hand, approach this team as if we have a goalie tandem right now.

If Jarry plays well and wins tonight I think he’s their starter for a spell.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Watched the OT goal again and again and again...

WTF???? it's like playoff Fleury jumped into Murray there.

This wasn't the case of the yips like MAF had

This is simply not reading the play and "guessing" on MM's part. He guesses Nelson is gonna pull the trigger in the middle of the ice. Nelson sees MM has frozen and continues his drift. MM is a sitting duck and hasn't set his skate edge to continue pushing off and he's done-zo at that point

 

[Burn]

To add, here's how Murray ranks in the NHL among starters with more than 10 games:

• Save%: .907, 18th of 31 starters
• 5v5 save%: .909, 22nd of 31 starters
• 5v5 Goals saved above average: -3.39, 24th of 31 starters
  
• 5v5 Goals saved above expectation: -7.54, 27th of 31 starters
  
• Average goal distance: 29.03 ft, longest distance among starters

He's just been bad this year. Trying to "whataboutism" him into being good doesn't change that his numbers are below average while he's getting some of the easiest shots against in the NHL.

I can't agree with that and Ill use the eye test over a stat. Murray continually makes saves from shots within prime scoring areas and the Pens D lets more plays go cross box than Paris Hilton.

The teams flaw is that Sullivan and Martin haven't changed things up and everyone knows what they're doing. Trotz had figured things out for the past 3 years.

Transition is also naturally bad because this teams game is 8th grade gym class, chip and chase hockey.... Its ugly and no longer effective.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

• Murray peaked during the Stanley Cup runs.
• He was pre-prime then in theory. In practice goalie progressions are different/weirder due to the highly mental nature of the position
• Murray is currently average to slightly above at this point in time and I have no desire to pay him >$5M/year.
• Having said that, he did face great looks against from the parts of the game I've been able to see. The Penguins let up far too many good chances for my liking.
• I want to see more Jarry this year with the big club.
• I also believe DeSmith is a borderline NHL starter as well.

CDS is not a borderline NHL starter at all. Not in this universe. He's a clear backup, nothing more.

 

[Burn]

Why isn't Petterson being talked about for getting walked?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Why isn't Petterson being talked about for getting walked?

I saw enough posts burning him down to.

Guys are going to get smoked in 3-3 at times though, and that’s when your goalie needs to step up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I can't agree with that and Ill use the eye test over a stat. Murray continually makes saves from shots within prime scoring areas and the Pens D lets more plays go cross box than Paris Hilton.

The teams flaw is that Sullivan and Martin haven't changed things up and everyone knows what they're doing. Trotz had figured things out for the past 3 years.

Transition is also naturally bad because this teams game is 8th grade gym class, chip and chase hockey.... Its ugly and no longer effective.

You can believe that if you want, I'm just saying the analytics say it's not true. Especially when it comes to shot attempts, analytics takes the bias that the eye test has out of the equation.