Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Got 2... should have got 3-4.

[Sidney the Kidney]

Unless I'm mistaken, the point of that statement from @Old Gregg was to put down Murray and excuse Fleury's meltdowns early in his career because the Pens didn't properly develop him. It's a backhanded way to say "See Murray is even worse!!!"

Personally, I have no issue with criticizing Murray's play of late, but some of the discussion is over the top. Give Jarry some games and let's see if Matt can play better.

Yep. Let's also not act like a select few criticizing Murray are doing so without an obvious agenda. It's pretty clear who is giving an unbiased opinion of Murray's current play and who is taking the opportunity to rag on the guy who stole their guy's job.

 

[Turin]

Murray was better last year than Fleury had been any regular season post-2008. He’s still a young goalie, he’s going to be inconsistent. Just hope he stays healthy.

 

[MrRuckus]

I hope Tanev shows up for warm ups tonight...I’m a little concerned with the way he exited and didn’t play in OT...we can’t afford to be down another key player....why don’t the hockey gods take ZAR as their injury sacrifice instead of Sid and Tanev!

Because a sacrifice has to have value

 

[Khelandros]

The difference is that Murray actually had a proper goalie coach and development where as Fleury didn't.

If this is what Murray looks like with a proper goalie coach, I say we go back to whatever Fleury had. Buckley is doing something wrong with Murray.

His glove hand stands out the most for me. He waves at pucks with it, looses the ones he does catch, and seems to be holding it way too low and tight when he squares up.

Here are the 4 goals from Nov. 19th game.

2-1 Pens

Already in Butterfly, with his glove facing the right boards, tight to his body.

2-2

His glove is below his pad, puck goes above his pad for the goal.

4-3 Pens

The "Lunge". His glove is up, too bad he decided to dive across the crease to make the save instead of pushing off and squaring up. He's pretty much lying on his stomach and the puck goes above him.

4-4

Again, glove facing the right hand boards, tight to body. Islanders scored on the left side past his elbow.

Buckley has done something here that just isn't working. It says he was the Coach for both Rask and Quick, I wonder if he was there when they had their off years as well.

 

[RSPens]

ZARned it.

But that's just roughing...no fight to see here. Sure it helped the Pens, but just brutal reffing

 

[HandshakeLine]

"loses his damn mind" is a tad hyperbolic. I just throw it back in the face of obvious Fleury apologists.

Come on my man. like, I dig your posting but I might have even been a bit understated there. I’m not trying to dunk on you, I just thought it was funny.

 

[WayneSid9987]

If this is what Murray looks like with a proper goalie coach, I say we go back to whatever Fleury had. Buckley is doing something wrong with Murray.

His glove hand stands out the most for me. He waves at pucks with it, looses the ones he does catch, and seems to be holding it way too low and tight when he squares up.

Here are the 4 goals from Nov. 19th game.

2-1 Pens

Already in Butterfly, with his glove facing the right boards, tight to his body.

2-2

His glove is below his pad, puck goes above his pad for the goal.

4-3 Pens

The "Lunge". His glove is up, too bad he decided to dive across the crease to make the save instead of pushing off and squaring up. He's pretty much lying on his stomach and the puck goes above him.

4-4

Again, glove facing the right hand boards, tight to body. Islanders scored on the left side past his elbow.

Buckley has done something here that just isn't working. It says he was the Coach for both Rask and Quick, I wonder if he was there when they had their off years as well.

Think it's more Murr losing his mechanics vs Buckley teaching him to do this.
The glove problem has always been there.
Guy simply needs a break and get back to basics + work more on that glove position.

 

[SEALBound]

Re: Fleury

If Fleury had played better than Matt Murray, we would have kept him over Murray. He didn't. We didn't. End of discussion. A couple flashy saves doesn't replace the countless number of regular season and playoff games and SERIES that MAF pissed away for us in Sid and Geno's prime years.

It’s a tight race this year between Bjugs, ZAR, and Galchenyuk for the “Craig Adams Most Useless Penguin” trophy. Past winners Tanner Glass, and Carter Rowney would be proud.

Simon as a dark horse candidate.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whooooa, whooooooooooooooooooa, WHOOOOOOOOOOA!!!!

Let's pump the brakes he a little bit Keem O Sabe. Each one of the mentioned players has been rough but they are no where NEAR the level of uselessness that Craig Adams was. Or Glass for that matter. I don't often defend them but I will white knight for every player on the team (even JJ last year) if you try suggesting they were on par with Craig Adams. No. More respect is due. I demand it.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

CDS is not a borderline NHL starter at all. Not in this universe. He's a clear backup, nothing more.

Maybe you're right, but I'm not sure on the delineation between starter and backup. His numbers with the Pens last year are certainly better than Murray's this year (so far). And this is with the current team playing better than last year, injuries notwithstanding.

 

[K Fleur]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whooooa, whooooooooooooooooooa, WHOOOOOOOOOOA!!!!

Let's pump the brakes he a little bit Keem O Sabe. Each one of the mentioned players has been rough but they are no where NEAR the level of uselessness that Craig Adams was. Or Glass for that matter. I don't often defend them but I will white knight for every player on the team (even JJ last year) if you try suggesting they were on par with Craig Adams. No. More respect is due. I demand it.

Yeah obviously nobody is as bad as Craig. That’s why his name is on the fake trophy I invented a couple hours ago

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Let's pump the brakes he a little bit Keem O Sabe. Each one of the mentioned players has been rough but they are no where NEAR the level of uselessness that Craig Adams was. Or Glass for that matter. I don't often defend them but I will white knight for every player on the team (even JJ last year) if you try suggesting they were on par with Craig Adams. No. More respect is due. I demand it.

ZAR is at least approaching Adams territory. The problem isn't ZAR as a 4th liner and occasional scratch. The problem is the coach has a blind spot for him. Which is a big reason Adams was so terribly frustrating.

The idea to stick him on the top line's LW after Guentzel had to skip a shift or two only for him to tip the puck in his own net was a perfect example. That's the kind of stuff Disco legends are made of.

I also like your post in another thread about kinda being "married" to these guys. It isn't the perfect comparison and I'm not married so I can't completely relate but at this point these guys have done so much for this team you accept them for what they are. And luckily they are still pretty damned good.

(Meaning Sid, Geno and Tanger... not friggin' ZAR)

 

[MartinS82]

If this is what Murray looks like with a proper goalie coach, I say we go back to whatever Fleury had. Buckley is doing something wrong with Murray.

His glove hand stands out the most for me. He waves at pucks with it, looses the ones he does catch, and seems to be holding it way too low and tight when he squares up.

Here are the 4 goals from Nov. 19th game.

2-1 Pens

Already in Butterfly, with his glove facing the right boards, tight to his body.

2-2

His glove is below his pad, puck goes above his pad for the goal.

4-3 Pens

The "Lunge". His glove is up, too bad he decided to dive across the crease to make the save instead of pushing off and squaring up. He's pretty much lying on his stomach and the puck goes above him.

4-4

Again, glove facing the right hand boards, tight to body. Islanders scored on the left side past his elbow.

Buckley has done something here that just isn't working. It says he was the Coach for both Rask and Quick, I wonder if he was there when they had their off years as well.

A lot of hybrid goalies now actually keep their glove lower on purpose. The thinking is from the puck's vantage point (imagine the puck has eyes and what it sees) the high glove actually covers the glass behind the net, especially if a tall goalie is out at the top of the crease. Also, it's easier to bring the glove up as a reaction but harder to drop it. With the amount of players shooting "6 hole" many goalie coaches aren't preaching the "keep your finger tips up" catcher style.

Not saying I agree or disagree, just that "his low glove hand" problem I keep hearing about may not be seen as a problem at all by some goalie coaches.

Note - in the first picture it looks like he may be in a reverse VH and the puck was coming out of the near corner. This is based on the fact that he has his left edge in the ice and the positioning of the defender. If this puck isn't coming out from the corner then he is WAY too deep in his crease. (I don't remember this particular goal - so may be way off, and he is just playing it terribly).

Glove Position Debate | Steve Davies Goalie Training

Edit: added a video explaining the "vantage point" stuff. Just interesting reading, don't have to agree or disagree.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

ZAR is at least approaching Adams territory. The problem isn't ZAR as a 4th liner and occasional scratch. The problem is the coach has a blind spot for him. Which is a big reason Adams was so terribly frustrating.

The idea to stick him on the top line's LW after Guentzel had to skip a shift or two only for him to tip the puck in his own net was a perfect example. That's the kind of stuff Disco legends are made of.

I also like your post in another thread about kinda being "married" to these guys. It isn't the perfect comparison and I'm not married so I can't completely relate but at this point these guys have done so much for this team you accept them for what they are. And luckily they are still pretty damned good.

I honestly don’t see what ZAR does better than Adams... wish someone could break it down for me.. sure isn’t skating, shooting, stickhandling or passing..

ZAR is currently on pace for the exact same point totals Adams had at 25, and ZAR is avg a couple more minutes per game.

People are simply in denial. Every 20 or so games ZAR does some decent move or scores a nice goal... uhhhh Adams was like that to... anyone remember the time Glass broke the Stars with his sweet move?

ZAR is a young Adams, there is no getting around it.

Actually that’s insulting to Adams, because he was more efficient on the forecheck in his younger days than ZAR has ever been, but whatever.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Actually that’s insulting to Adams, because he was more efficient on the forecheck in his younger days than ZAR has ever been, but whatever.

Yeah it isn't really worth getting into but I was going to say... at least early on in Adams' tenure as a Penguin he provided reliable energy to every shift, was a ruthless forechecker and brought a pretty steady defensive side to his game.

ZAR has some nice hands here and there but is honestly kind of a slug compared to Adams at the same age.

It's comparing crap to crap but I see why people mumble it under their breath right after ZAR has bonered another shift up.

 

[Ginormousthumbs]

I don’t like that MM needs to remain competitive with pressure from how the back up performs. If this guy is going to command big dollars, then he needs to step it up. At this point I don’t feel confident when he’s starting games.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

A lot of hybrid goalies now actually keep their glove lower on purpose. The thinking is from the puck's vantage point (imagine the puck has eyes and what it sees) the high glove actually covers the glass behind the net, especially if a tall goalie is out at the top of the crease. Also, it's easier to bring the glove up as a reaction but harder to drop it. With the amount of players shooting "6 hole" many goalie coaches aren't preaching the "keep your finger tips up" catcher style.

Not saying I agree or disagree, just that "his low glove hand" problem I keep hearing about may not be seen as a problem at all by some goalie coaches.

Note - in the first picture it looks like he may be in a reverse VH and the puck was coming out of the near corner. This is based on the fact that he has his left edge in the ice and the positioning of the defender. If this puck isn't coming out from the corner then he is WAY too deep in his crease. (I don't remember this particular goal - so may be way off, and he is just playing it terribly).

Glove Position Debate | Steve Davies Goalie Training

Edit: added a video explaining the "vantage point" stuff. Just interesting reading, don't have to agree or disagree.

Yup, many goalies now are taught to keep their glove hand out in front of their body because it closes that angle down. That technique is generally taught when the puck is in closer to the goalie, not when they are so far out (goalie coaches philosphy's vary completely in this area).

But the goalie coach may have some different philosophy that we're not privy to and they're trying something different with MM. Either way you slice it I believe MM's troubles stem from diagnosing the play and where to position himself: deep in net, VH/reverse VH, etc. I feel like he's choosing his save positions incorrectly and that's concerning bc those should be instinctual at this point in his career.

I mean this is the stuff you work out in your HS years. The only goalies I've ever heard of completely breaking away from their styles and trying a completely different style were Osgood and Broduer both very very late in their careers. That was due to: their age/reaction time slowing. Obviously when you get to that point, not much is gonna help you and you're not long for this league anymore.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Yeah it isn't really worth getting into but I was going to say... at least early on in Adams' tenure as a Penguin he provided reliable energy to every shift, was a ruthless forechecker and brought a pretty steady defensive side to his game.

ZAR has some nice hands here and there but is honestly kind of a slug compared to Adams at the same age.

It's comparing crap to crap but I see why people mumble it under their breath right after ZAR has bonered another shift up.

People only remember the slow Adams
But his first few years here he was actually a very smooth and efficient skater. Bad hands but man he moved quite well for his size.

 

[billybudd]

Aston-Reese has much, much softer hands than Adams, but it's not wrong to say that at the same age Adams did everything else better. Most-notably, their work ethics are at the complete opposite ends of the percentile continuum. Whatever else he was, Adams was one of the hardest-working players in the NHL for most of his career. Aston-Reese is...not.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Aston-Reese has much, much softer hands than Adams, but it's not wrong to say that at the same age Adams did everything else better. Most-notably, their work ethics are at the complete opposite ends of the percentile continuum. Whatever else he was, Adams was one of the hardest-working players in the NHL for most of his career. Aston-Reese is...not.

And that's the thing that really bothers me the most with ZAR. This team from the coach up to the GM love to run their yaps about hard work and buying in etc. etc. but they let their boy go out there and glom around the ice until he can lob a bad angle shitshot on goal (with linemates open) to pump his CORSI or whatever.

Sorry. I feel like I'm on a tirade about this guy but his contributions to last night's game still have me irritated. And I half expect to see him rolled out in yet more big moments, tonight.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Aston-Reese has much, much softer hands than Adams, but it's not wrong to say that at the same age Adams did everything else better. Most-notably, their work ethics are at the complete opposite ends of the percentile continuum. Whatever else he was, Adams was one of the hardest-working players in the NHL for most of his career. Aston-Reese is...not.

Which is why it's weird how much Sullivan has fallen in love with ZAR. Usually, coaches tend to overplay the "hard working grinders" because of the whole work ethic thing. But ZAR's not that, yet he gets the same kind of love that these grinder-types get who get overplayed by their respective coaches.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Think it's more Murr losing his mechanics vs Buckley teaching him to do this.
The glove problem has always been there.
Guy simply needs a break and get back to basics + work more on that glove position.

Murray needs to learn when and when not to be in the butterfly deep in his net. How often do you see Murray out challenging or standing up to make the easy save. That right there takes away a good percentage of what his glove hand needs to do. That'll attribute to him playing/being big.

Even when he hugs the post he's crouched down. No room for adjusting or reacting to the puck. It's drop down tight up and deep in the net.

This isn't technique that needs addressed it's the whole philosophy. Murray's philosophy is drop and hope it hits him. Is it a confidence thing to not challenge on plays? I don't know. He's certainly not making it easy for or on himself.

What's wrong with this picture?

Or this one

Or this one.

There are plenty out there that show him making himself as small as possible.

Might as well put a umpa lumpa in net.

So his flaws really are not his glove but his stance, not challenging enough. PLAYING BIG. Let the ones in that should be let in and make the easier saves. If he's not as mobile he needs to make the correct call for each shot he faces. it's not drop and pray it hits him. A lot of shots that have beat him had he not dropped still hits him.

That's my stance on, Murray.

 

[billybudd]

Which is why it's weird how much Sullivan has fallen in love with ZAR. Usually, coaches tend to overplay the "hard working grinders" because of the whole work ethic thing. But ZAR's not that, yet he gets the same kind of love that these grinder-types get who get overplayed by their respective coaches.

I think Sullivan has it in his head that Aston-Reese is some sort of shot-blocking phenom. And he does block key shots at key times occasionally, but not like peak Adams did.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah it isn't really worth getting into but I was going to say... at least early on in Adams' tenure as a Penguin he provided reliable energy to every shift, was a ruthless forechecker and brought a pretty steady defensive side to his game.

ZAR has some nice hands here and there but is honestly kind of a slug compared to Adams at the same age.

It's comparing crap to crap but I see why people mumble it under their breath right after ZAR has bonered another shift up.

I never thought I’d say this given the trauma Adams inflicted on my eyes and soul, but I’d take him at 25 over ZAR without even hesitating.

Adams at that age could at least competently handle the puck and win board battles. He had a really high battle level and ZAR is on Lithium.

But yep, it’s comparing two teacher’s pets and only a few people are/were naive enough to defend either as some valuable piece.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

That's my stance on, Murray.