Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Got 2... should have got 3-4.

[molon labe]

Been a huge MM fan from the start - but part of that is starting to feel like I had a car that constantly let me down, until I came upon something reliable and consistent which I got overly hyped about. That's wearing off.

I'll stick with our newer conversation piece that if MM is costing us more than 7M - we should trade him for a great return (no mistake he gets a great return unless he absolutely goes off a cliff the rest of the year) and roll with Jarry/CDS then sign someone like Crawford to a 1-2 year deal in the Summer if need be.

 

[Flying Dego]

i'm really hoping Jarry seizes the opportunity and has a solid performance tonight. Murray keeps this up I'm kicking the tires on Lehner for next season.

This should be crystal clear for the front office/coaches. Give Jarry a chance to string games together if he does well keep testing him. If he flames out...well we answer the Jarry question.

If Jarry performs even at an above average rate, sign up a vet 1b (Lehner) for next year and use the cap savings from MM for others.

At this point MM, Chucky, Schultz are all high risk signings to me. I hope JR is racking options to declutter. This season is a crossroad to me. We are revamping towards 2016. But signing these guys and them underperforming would shoot down the Sid/Geno era. No thanks to spending 13+ Million on Schultz/MM

 

[Shaftception]

My own pet theory on why it's hard to discuss MM rationally, is that he's basically MAF for a younger group of fans.

In the end, I think we Pens fans get way too attached to mediocre-to-above-average goaltenders in general, but we fail to realize that they're really not all that essential to this team as it's constructed. I'm all for keeping MM, especially because UFA goaltenders are a minefield, but I'd be perfectly happy if he got shipped out or we brought in another goalie, because our goaltending doesn't need to be superb, it merely needs to be decent.

It's not just a Pens goalie thing, it's a every above average player on every team in the city thing. There's something about this town's fan culture that needs every good player to be in the best in the league conversation for their position or something similar.

Sometimes a good player is good compared to options you have on your own team, but to the rest of the league they're not all that special. We definitely tend to get attached to names more so than the logo way too often in this city. I'm sure everyone can think of one especially glaring example.

If we could bring somebody off the street that would give us .930 goaltending I'd drive Murray to the airport myself, I just want wins for the Penguins. I was far more attached to individual players when I was younger for the 08-09 cup runs, don't much remember the early 90s. Now I appreciate them for what they do while they're here, but the team comes first.

 

[Beauner]

Murray now just reminds me of Fleury when he was young. Will make some ridiculous saves he has no business making, then lets in an awful goal at the absolute worst time.

I think it's a young goalie thing. And while I was 100% on board with sticking with Murray, part of me is wondering why we took the chance on letting him work through his troubles as a young goalie while the clock is ticking on this core. Hindsight is 20/20 and Murray was a stud in the playoffs, but maybe it was naive to think a drop-off wouldn't come.

 

[K Fleur]

ZARned it.

 

[Shaftception]

Murray now just reminds me of Fleury when he was young. Will make some ridiculous saves he has no business making, then lets in an awful goal at the absolute worst time.

I think it's a young goalie thing. And while I was 100% on board with sticking with Murray, part of me is wondering why we took the chance on letting him work through his troubles as a young goalie while the clock is ticking on this core. Hindsight is 20/20 and Murray was a stud in the playoffs, but maybe it was naive to think a drop-off wouldn't come.

It likely is part of a young goalie's development and they certainly took a chance you're right on that, but I didn't and still don't have a problem moving on from Fleury then even if I have a problem with signing current Murray to an extension now. I actually feel comfortable moving on from Murray should a better alternative be available for the same reason I did for Fleury then, the cap space matters.

I also can't see it as a coincidence that Fleury goes from like a .914 career average starter to what he's done since he's moved to Vegas. It's simply too convenient for his career renaissance occurring right after a change in who's playing in front of him.

I wouldn't fret over who the name is playing goal for the team, just how well they do it.

 

[Old Gregg]

Murray now just reminds me of Fleury when he was young. Will make some ridiculous saves he has no business making, then lets in an awful goal at the absolute worst time.

I think it's a young goalie thing. And while I was 100% on board with sticking with Murray, part of me is wondering why we took the chance on letting him work through his troubles as a young goalie while the clock is ticking on this core. Hindsight is 20/20 and Murray was a stud in the playoffs, but maybe it was naive to think a drop-off wouldn't come.

The difference is that Murray actually had a proper goalie coach and development where as Fleury didn't.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Murray now just reminds me of Fleury when he was young. Will make some ridiculous saves he has no business making, then lets in an awful goal at the absolute worst time.

I think it's a young goalie thing. And while I was 100% on board with sticking with Murray, part of me is wondering why we took the chance on letting him work through his troubles as a young goalie while the clock is ticking on this core. Hindsight is 20/20 and Murray was a stud in the playoffs, but maybe it was naive to think a drop-off wouldn't come.

Pens absolutely made the right decision with Murray and MAF. After seeing MAF meltdown in the cup with Vegas, I was 100% convinced the Pens would have never won another cup with him around.

MAF just can’t help himself and will always flake out at some point.

Maybe Murray isn’t the answer either, but at least there is the possibility he gets hot at the right time or another goalie in their system.

With MAF, it will always end in a flame out the higher the stakes go. He just can’t handle it, sadly.

 

[LOGiK]

Been a huge MM fan from the start - but part of that is starting to feel like I had a car that constantly let me down, until I came upon something reliable and consistent which I got overly hyped about. That's wearing off.

I'll stick with our newer conversation piece that if MM is costing us more than 7M - we should trade him for a great return (no mistake he gets a great return unless he absolutely goes off a cliff the rest of the year) and roll with Jarry/CDS then sign someone like Crawford to a 1-2 year deal in the Summer if need be.

Wat in the f*** is Viz Via? Does he mean vis a vis? *Compared to* Holy f*** Viz via?
Gave me a hearty chuckle.

BTW:
Murray stinks. Is the board in agreeance(sp) yet? Are we shipping him to the glue factory?

 

[K Fleur]

It’s a tight race this year between Bjugs, ZAR, and Galchenyuk for the “Craig Adams Most Useless Penguin” trophy. Past winners Tanner Glass, and Carter Rowney would be proud.

Simon as a dark horse candidate.

 

[molon labe]

Wat in the **** is Viz Via? Does he mean vis a vis? *Compared to* Holy **** Viz via?
Gave me a hearty chuckle.

BTW:
Murray stinks. Is the board in agreeance(sp) yet? Are we shipping him to the glue factory?

Assuming the first part was not in relation to my quote - because I read it twice, equally confused both times.

I wouldn't go so far as saying Murray stinks - but he's extremely "average" at this point. And what makes most of us upset is the nagging suspicion that this franchise is going to sign him to some stupid contract extension. For me - I've never been one to overvalue goalies. From the greatest of the great to the worst of the worst - they all seem to have ups and downs and require "catching fire" to be good. Is paying 100M for Bob improving your teams odds of catching fire more than 5M for Lehner? Just seems silly. Outside of that - he's shown to get injured about as much as anyone else donning the Pens uniform and is HIGHLY responsive to the system in front of him (as most goalies are). If we're playing well and blocking shots, he's a 2 GAA goalie. If we're leaking breakaways and playing sloppy he's a 3-4 GAA goalie. Well, to me that seems like every NHL caliber goalie and not something I should pay 9-12% of my teams salary cap on.

 

[Pancakes]

2 out of 4 points against a very good Islanders team is not a bad result considering who we have out of the lineup. It's frustrating in that it could have been three or even four, but if you take a step back and look at it that way it's not bad.

Now let's go and beat the Devils for once.

 

[EightyOne]

Murray now just reminds me of Fleury when he was young. Will make some ridiculous saves he has no business making, then lets in an awful goal at the absolute worst time.

I think it's a young goalie thing. And while I was 100% on board with sticking with Murray, part of me is wondering why we took the chance on letting him work through his troubles as a young goalie while the clock is ticking on this core. Hindsight is 20/20 and Murray was a stud in the playoffs, but maybe it was naive to think a drop-off wouldn't come.

Just look at the sharks golden knights highlights from last night for a preview of what would have been if they went with maf

Spoiler: a failed poke check turtle roll

A rebound kicked right out and let in through feet

I'm no Murray fan however f*** that noise. If I never see a poke check turtle roll again it'll be too damn soon.

Here:




But the day before:



So yeah crazy good but god awful bad. Nothing to do with age for MAF, either. Since juniors he's been that.

 

[Shady Machine]

The difference is that Murray actually had a proper goalie coach and development where as Fleury didn't.

Lol here come the Fleury apologists.

 

[Old Gregg]

Lol here come the Fleury apologists.

It's not my fault you can't handle the truth

 

[Beauner]

It's not my fault you can't handle the truth

coach or not he had some spectacular choke-jobs in the playoffs. Those have nothing to do with coaching

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah again... not happy with Murray's work so far this year but acting like Fleury is the answer is disingenuous.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

Lol here come the Fleury apologists.

To be fair, it's a fact that the organization did not develop Fleury properly.

 

[Old Gregg]

coach or not he had some spectacular choke-jobs in the playoffs. Those have nothing to do with coaching

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yeah again... not happy with Murray's work so far this year but acting like Fleury is the answer is disingenuous.

Who is, though? Shady just loses his damn mind any time he sees anything about MAF.

MM has not been good this year. That needs to be addressed either through him getting back to basics, through having Jarry push him, or even a trade as a last resort. But again, it's not that pressing of an issue. It's just annoying to me that people can't straight up admit the obvious about it-- MM has some real problems and he needs to fix that shit.

 

[vikingGoalie]

coach or not he had some spectacular choke-jobs in the playoffs. Those have nothing to do with coaching

perhaps, but Meloche was quoted as telling Fleury that he just had bad puck luck. WTF is that? you go to your goalie "coach" to figure out what you should be doing differently and he tells you you're just unlucky. Goalie coaching absolutely was a huge hinderance to MAF's early career. In fact there is a good article about how the goalie coach in vegas and him really click. Of course bales is the one that really started fleury's transformation. If people couldn't tell the difference then they don't know diddly about the position.

That said, yea Fleury had some spectacular flame outs. However, he also was a big reason we beat a pretty darn good 2009 redwing team. Yes he had some laffer games, but the games we won he was crazy good. Not to mention a last second save on lidstorm to win the game in game 7 on the road. That's a pretty big moment that he did ok on.

@EightyOne I'd far rather Fleury's performance where he posted up a 93% save night giving up 2 goals, then Murray's last night where he clicked along at 83%. but to each their own.

Not a fleury apologist, but let's keep it real folks. Fleury is top 10 in save percentage right now Murray on that same chart is #30 and Fleury has 574 shots in 19 games where Murray has seen 473 in 18 games. Murray is also playing behind a team that by many measures is playing like a juggernaut 5v5 and until recently killed off a pile of power play chances against. Far be it if facts get in the way of people's narrative. Fleury had to be shown the door the way it went down. We are never getting him back. I'm all about moving forward and not bemoaning the past.

That said, I used to think Murray had elite potential. Meaning that he could *CONSISTENTLY* be a top 10 or better goalie. I've jumped off that boat. I'm starting to think the way forward is one where Murray is on another team.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

@HandshakeLin - I'm not saying any of that is untrue. I'm just confused as to why Fleury is even a topic of conversation. Even if it were possible it wouldn't actually solve much. We just push off our goaltending problems to the post season, instead. Terrific.

 

[Shady Machine]

To be fair, it's a fact that the organization did not develop Fleury properly.

Unless I'm mistaken, the point of that statement from @Old Gregg was to put down Murray and excuse Fleury's meltdowns early in his career because the Pens didn't properly develop him. It's a backhanded way to say "See Murray is even worse!!!"

Personally, I have no issue with criticizing Murray's play of late, but some of the discussion is over the top. Give Jarry some games and let's see if Matt can play better.

 

[vikingGoalie]

Who is, though? Shady just loses his damn mind any time he sees anything about MAF.

MM has not been good this year. That needs to be addressed either through him getting back to basics, through having Jarry push him, or even a trade as a last resort. But again, it's not that pressing of an issue. It's just annoying to me that people can't straight up admit the obvious about it-- MM has some real problems and he needs to fix that ****.

quit being reasonable, though i disagree on how pressing this is. We can't keep pissing away points and not have it come back to bite us. That and Murray really needs to figure it out or we need a different starter or we are dead in the playoffs even with us dominating 5v5 play.

 

[Shady Machine]

Who is, though? Shady just loses his damn mind any time he sees anything about MAF.

MM has not been good this year. That needs to be addressed either through him getting back to basics, through having Jarry push him, or even a trade as a last resort. But again, it's not that pressing of an issue. It's just annoying to me that people can't straight up admit the obvious about it-- MM has some real problems and he needs to fix that ****.

"loses his damn mind" is a tad hyperbolic. I just throw it back in the face of obvious Fleury apologists.