Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Got 2... should have got 3-4.

[vikingGoalie]

Hilarious that yinzers only blame Murray as if he's supposed to post a shutout every night. Put blame on the talent discrepancy because of injuries.

what is also baffling is how we can dominate many times 5v5 and shots that the opposing goalie is some how finding a way to stop seem to go in on ours.

Is it all Murray's fault? Of course not, that first goal I have no idea why Murray was going backwards into the net from a point shot. But if ZAR doesn't tip it maybe it hits murray. But Murray is not blameless there. He is a big blocking style goalie that is playing too deep in net and looking rather small at times. That OT goal was beer league goalie level of play. The shot nelson had off the face off, it was a great shot. But it's these little things, he was deep in net again if he is out another foot it hits him.

So yea you can say it was just a good shot, and not a terrible one to get beat on etc,etc. But these things add up. He doesn't decide to go swimming in OT, he is consistently on top of his crease on these further away shots, most likely one or the other of the Nelson/Zar tip shots get stopped and he probably doesn't let that goal in in OT.

If this level of play continues I would not give Murray ANY long term contract, best case I do a Lehner type contact. 1 year 5M prove to me you got your act together contract.
I've been saying it for years now. Ever since Bales left Murray has not looked as good. It started the first season after he left and Murray has slowly eroded technique wise.

18 games in. Matt Murray: .907, ranked 30th for goalies who qualify. This while we are dominating 5v5 play. Certainly not 100% all on Murray but if he is unable to lock it down for us then his next contract (if any from us) should reflect that imo.

Right now we need to give Jarry the starter reigns and see what happens.

 

[Icarium]

Transition is also naturally bad because this teams game is 8th grade gym class, chip and chase hockey.... Its ugly and no longer effective.

What? The Pens are creating more chances than their opponents in almost every game despite the million injuries, lots of this is from transition. Of all the things to complain about...

This season's games against the Isles are nothing like the playoffs, we actually hold our own and have lost two OTs because of dumb individual mistakes, yet people keep parroting this nonsense about Trotz "solving" us. Bravo Trotz, you forced ZAR to score an own goal, Jake to get a 4 minute minor and Murray to stop playing in the final minutes, that's some bona fide black magic you got there. Guy is a great coach, don't get me wrong but all three have been down to which team gets the bounces and timely goaltending.

 

[SUBdrewgANS]

I know it sucks and frustrating not to win the last 2 games, but the Isles are the hottest team in the league right now and we took them to OT in all 3 games with a depleted roster, this to me is very encouraging and I hope we keep up this level and drive once we start to get healthy.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

To add, here's how Murray ranks in the NHL among starters with more than 10 games:

• Save%: .907, 18th of 31 starters
• 5v5 save%: .909, 22nd of 31 starters
• 5v5 Goals saved above average: -3.39, 24th of 31 starters
  
• 5v5 Goals saved above expectation: -7.54, 27th of 31 starters
  
• Average goal distance: 29.03 ft, longest distance among starters

He's just been bad this year. Trying to "whataboutism" him into being good doesn't change that his numbers are below average while he's getting some of the easiest shots against in the NHL.

Woof

 

[HandshakeLine]

My own pet theory on why it's hard to discuss MM rationally, is that he's basically MAF for a younger group of fans.

In the end, I think we Pens fans get way too attached to mediocre-to-above-average goaltenders in general, but we fail to realize that they're really not all that essential to this team as it's constructed. I'm all for keeping MM, especially because UFA goaltenders are a minefield, but I'd be perfectly happy if he got shipped out or we brought in another goalie, because our goaltending doesn't need to be superb, it merely needs to be decent.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Seems like the story of this season...

Murray gets a better shot at a win, doesn't.
Jarry gets shafted, impresses at every turn/save.

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed, but the Pens seem to also play a little better in front of Jarry, that usually happens when a team feeds off their goalie and his play. Looks like the Pens are a little weary of Muzz in net right now, he hasn't been terrible, but he sure as hell hasn't been as good as he should be and that's been going on for about 2yrs now, the inconsistency is nuts.

And people still want to move Jarry?

Lol

Kind of like we saw from Murray at first compared to Fleury . The team felt confident in Murray then and you could see it. 5 games is a very small sample size but like you said Jarry had to play in tough games(3 of them being when the other team was rested) and still gave them a chance. And tough opponents in Tampa(45 saves, we lose 3-2), Vegas(let up 1 goal and we got shutout), Boston(came in for Murray down 3-0 and we came back to take the lead, but a great shot by Krug and Jarry lets in his first goal in the 2 periods he played. A mistake at the end by our team allowing Marchand to get a great scoring chance and he got lucky with it going off the post and off Jarrys back) . Those were the 3 losses. Beat Jets 7-2. Leafs 6-1.

Id settle for the Pens to give him 3 goals tonight, he doesnt need 6 and 7. Save that for Murray .

 

[HandshakeLine]

You can believe that if you want, I'm just saying the analytics say it's not true. Especially when it comes to shot attempts, analytics takes the bias that the eye test has out of the equation.

Goalie stats always deserve to be taken with a grain of salt, but I think those do show that something's up with MM's play recently. He's just not as good as he's been in previous periods for whatever reason.

 

[RSPens]

It looked like these Refs had never reffed a game before, just brutal. However Murray should have had that save.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

My own pet theory on why it's hard to discuss MM rationally, is that he's basically MAF for a younger group of fans.

In the end, I think we Pens fans get way too attached to mediocre-to-above-average goaltenders in general, but we fail to realize that they're really not all that essential to this team as it's constructed. I'm all for keeping MM, especially because UFA goaltenders are a minefield, but I'd be perfectly happy if he got shipped out or we brought in another goalie, because our goaltending doesn't need to be superb, it merely needs to be decent.

Yup. Blame it on social media. Makes rational fans become delusional on certain topics. I get that the casual fan was annoying with the MAF/MM talk but doesnt mean the true fans had to start hating MAF because of it and MM could do no wrong. Like I said Ive been worried after watching MM in the 2018 playoffs. First , he set such a high bar that was near impossible to keep playing at. Second, had a feeling he would start going thru the typical ups and downs just about every goalie does at that age. Thats why I hated the timing of the expansion draft. We had a good thing going. I could have seen Fleury sticking around another year trying to go for that 3peat. And if that was the case we could have went back to MAF in that Caps series and saw diff results. Knew they wouldn't give CDS a game...even they should have. Regardless of the result , give Murray a game off then could have went back to him. I really wanted the Caps to have to face a 3rd goalie for the 3rd straight year.

Anyway we have that now with Jarry hopefully. He should have been the one back then but was just as young as Murray. CDS didnt have alot of experience but 27 and way more calm in net. Ddint have that pedigree tho, so they didnt give him a chance. They def would with Jarry this year if they need to. So I'm less worried about goaltending now. I just want to see Jarry keep this up.

We lost to NJ last time 2-1. With them only getting 20 shots on net to our 38. I want to see that same shot total again and see what happens. Even with us playing last night with them having a night off. Guessing we will see a few changes in our lineup because of it, Riikola in and Trotman out. Blandisi in, hopefully ZAR out. Add some more speed to the lineup.

 

[Andy99]

I hope Tanev shows up for warm ups tonight...I’m a little concerned with the way he exited and didn’t play in OT...we can’t afford to be down another key player....why don’t the hockey gods take ZAR as their injury sacrifice instead of Sid and Tanev!

 

[lorwood]

I know it sucks and frustrating not to win the last 2 games, but the Isles are the hottest team in the league right now and we took them to OT in all 3 games with a depleted roster, this to me is very encouraging and I hope we keep up this level and drive once we start to get healthy.

As an Isles fan that has watched every game this year the Pens are a match up headache for the Isles. So far all three games could have gone either way. I for one would like to avoid the Pens at all costs come playoff time.

 

[RSPens]

Murray needs competition. He played great last year after his injury because CDS played great when he was out. With Jarry only getting the second game in B2B, Murray knows that he's the starter no matter what and that he is going to get a good contract in the summer, no matter what. After the win against Toronto, Jarry should have been given the game on Tuesday. If he wins that game I would have given him last nights game as well. Sully needs to make MM work for the net.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Watching Murray try to move lateral in OT was hilarious. I'm simply not impressed with today's modern goalies. For the most part, they are simply bigger in size and equipment play the angles. If the nets were made larger to make up for the disparity in size between generations, a lot of them would be horribly exposed as the frauds that they are. Don't think that will ever happen for that very reason.

Having said that, the Pens should find out if Jarry is comparable to Murray (I think it's better than even odds that he is). You could dangle MM for a missing piece type of asset and you get Jarry providing cap relief for the next couple of years.

 

[Turin]

Murray was great last year. I agree Jarry NEEDS more starts.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Goalie stats always deserve to be taken with a grain of salt, but I think those do show that something's up with MM's play recently. He's just not as good as he's been in previous periods for whatever reason.

Be interesting to see MM's stats BY PERIOD

My hypothesis is that he gets worse as the games go on. Conditioning issue?

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

The late game break downs have been going on for a couple of years now. Last years outdoor game when the Flyers scored twice in the third, JVR with 3 minutes left and then Vorachek with 20 seconds. Followed by Giroux in OT.

Two games later, Sabres score with 2:30 left in the third to tie it, then win in OT.

Next time they play the Flyers, JVR ties it with 20 seconds left, Flyers win in OT.

The next game Carolina ties it with 2 minutes left. Loss in shoot out.

Then the Playoffs, every time the Pens got some momentum, Murray lets in a soft goal. This **** is aggravating and I can't believe the coaching staff/front office doesn't see it. Especially with Rutherford being a goalie, he should be all over this.

I remember people freaking out at me for point out these collapses in PGTs last year. Had we won those games we are first in the division (more ORW then the Caps) and play the Canes in round 1. All points matter.

 

[Empoleon8771]

 

[canadianguy77]

I remember people freaking out at me for point out these collapses in PGTs last year. Had we won those games we are first in the division (more ORW then the Caps) and play the Canes in round 1. All points matter.

Canes would've swept us in 3.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

From the eye test, and the 5v5 stats, and the goal differential, and the injuries, if you were to assess fairly this question, what would your answer be?

Real or Fraud? Is this team more the team that is losing one goal games or the team who is blowing out teams to inflate that goal differential?

For me of course a bit of both, however leaning much more to the real blowing out teams team than the one goal game team. Especially when healthy. Especially with Crosby.

Over 82 games you can not dominate the way the Pens do without the bounces evening out. it is not like the Pens are padding their shots with shots from anywhere.

My concern is health going into the playoffs and getting unlucky bounces then rather than now. Right now it is not especially concerning.

 

[Empoleon8771]

From the eye test, and the 5v5 stats, and the goal differential, and the injuries, if you were to assess fairly this question, what would your answer be?

Real or Fraud? Is this team more the team that is losing one goal games or the team who is blowing out teams to inflate that goal differential?

For me of course a bit of both, however leaning much more to the real blowing out teams team than the one goal game team. Especially when healthy. Especially with Crosby.

Over 82 games you can not dominate the way the Pens do without the bounces evening out. it is not like the Pens are padding their shots with shots from anywhere.

My concern is health going into the playoffs and getting unlucky bounces then rather than now. Right now it is not especially concerning.

This team is real, but they're having issues with injuries and poor play. They will probably need to make trades to address those issues, but if the team was playing well and weren't battered with injuries, they'd be one of the most dangerous teams in hockey.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

This team is real, but they're having issues with injuries and poor play. They will probably need to make trades to address those issues, but if the team was playing well and weren't battered with injuries, they'd be one of the most dangerous teams in hockey.

Are they really playing poorly? Both eye test and analytics say that they are playing some of their best hockey in years.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Are they really playing poorly? Both eye test and analytics say that they are playing some of their best hockey in years.

I mean poor individual play. Guys like Murray, Schultz, Galchenyuk and Bjugstad haven't played up to their capabilities this year.

 

[reino]

 

[vikingGoalie]

i'm really hoping Jarry seizes the opportunity and has a solid performance tonight. Murray keeps this up I'm kicking the tires on Lehner for next season.

 

[molon labe]

Galchenyuk got us out of the post-cup Kessel era...so I can't be all upset. However - I was championing simply getting the Arizona draft pick for Kessel during the Summer and at this point I would have rather had the full cap space. Dude isn't bad by any stretch - but he just doesn't seem to add any element to this team. Maybe we can move him for something by the end of January.

I didn't watch last night - I won't be watching games against the Islanders anymore (unless I'm forced to in the playoffs). Watched the one in early November and turned it off in the 2nd before we won. Watch the game earlier this week and turned it off in the 1st...didn't even bother last night. I don't know if it's the style, frustration - or shitty ice in Barclay - but the games feel more like a chore to watch than my evening entertainment should be. Just brutal. Reading through this thread it seems like it was more of the same last night (mostly awful with a stretch of great hockey by the Pens...).