Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Flyers & Pens

[Dipsy Doodle]

Based on his fast start, has Fleury convinced you that he's an elite level goaltender that can lead his team to the Cup, again? No?

Well...

I don't think one should make sweeping generalizations based on small sample sizes, period (Maatta included). But one can be happy that we're winning games despite a depleted roster, and happy Fleury has looked very good to date.

If people deprive themselves of any sort of satisfaction until we win the Cup, it'll make for a pretty depressing year.

As for Engelland. I thought he looked surprisingly competent with the puck in the offensive zone. Though he really had no idea what he was supposed to be doing in his own end. All in all, I'd rather have a mediocre forward playing over a mediocre defenseman playing forward. But that's mostly just me, based on the "Jeffrey sux" comments.

I don't think Jeffrey sucks, but when he's had a few milquetoast games and we don't have many options, I'm not going to crucify DB for putting Engo there. He gave the line a different look.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't think Jeffrey sucks, but when he's had a few milquetoast games and we don't have many options, I'm not going to crucify DB for putting Engo there. He gave the line a different look.

No, it worked out better than I would have figured. But I still think Jeffrey gets a really bad rep, around here. He's not great... but he also isn't some bruiser and is basically forced to play bottom six minutes due to circumstance. So he's not in a great position to succeed. And naturally he gets crucified by the fans for it. Especially the "toughness" crowd. Oh well. I'm sure he'll be gone soon enough, regardless.

And for the record, I try to always put myself in "wait and see" mode. But it's difficult not to assume that "waiting for the other shoe to drop" mentality based on precedent. I know you can relate in regards to Fleury. That's why I brought him up.

 

[trader997]

Crosby should've had an assist on the second gaol. Dupuis didn't touch it.

The worst thing is that Sid was creating all the chances on that shift, setting up Nisky twice and Scuderi in a span of 10 seconds. It's only in Philly that things like this happens...

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

No, it worked out better than I would have figured. But I still think Jeffrey gets a really bad rep, around here. He's not great... but he also isn't some bruiser and is basically forced to play bottom six minutes due to circumstance. So he's not in a great position to succeed. And naturally he gets crucified by the fans for it. Especially the "toughness" crowd. Oh well. I'm sure he'll be gone soon enough, regardless.

Yep. Letestu makes a good analogy, and I wouldn't be surprised if it played out similarly.

And for the record, I try to always put myself in "wait and see" mode. But it's difficult not to assume that "waiting for the other shoe to drop" mentality based on precedent. I know you can relate in regards to Fleury. That's why I brought him up.

I take an alcoholic's approach. We've got our 7 game chip.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I didn't get to really pay attention to the game. How did Engelland do as a RW?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I didn't get to really pay attention to the game. How did Engelland do as a RW?

Surprisingly good. His offensive instinct, at least in this game were... very sound, actually. He nearly scored a goal with Malkin double shifting on that line and almost set one up later on. He's also extremely difficult to knock off the puck, evidently. As he held it in the corner against pressure a few times.

But he has absolutely no idea what's going on in his own end at that position. That's perfectly understandable. But also potentially a problem until he can figure that facet of the position out, should this experiment be revisited.

I actually kind of like the idea of permanent position switch, if he proves capable of doing it. I think he ultimately holds more value to the team there than he does as a mostly-bad extra defenseman. He'd have to play exclusively on the fourth line, though. And that would necessitate tinkering with the current fourth line. Which seems... unlikely.

 

[ZapRowsdower13]

Question on dirty (for nickname purposes, not trying to start anything) Wayne Simmonds...did he lose a lot of weight or something. At the end of the game or so he turned towards the ice and he looked almost unhealthy in the face. Guys still pretty big so just wondering whats going on.

 

[Sorry]

That was easily Sutters best game of the season. Keep it up.

 

[Shrimper]

The worst thing is that Sid was creating all the chances on that shift, setting up Nisky twice and Scuderi in a span of 10 seconds. It's only in Philly that things like this happens...

He was a beast last night. Could have scored 5 goals on that shift alone. Think they said it lasted 45 seconds or something in their zone.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

Surprisingly good. His offensive instinct, at least in this game were... very sound, actually. He nearly scored a goal with Malkin double shifting on that line and almost set one up later on. He's also extremely difficult to knock off the puck, evidently. As he held it in the corner against pressure a few times.

But he has absolutely no idea what's going on in his own end at that position. That's perfectly understandable. But also potentially a problem until he can figure that facet of the position out, should this experiment be revisited.

I actually kind of like the idea of permanent position switch, if he proves capable of doing it. I think he ultimately holds more value to the team there than he does as a mostly-bad extra defenseman. He'd have to play exclusively on the fourth line, though. And that would necessitate tinkering with the current fourth line. Which seems... unlikely.

HE'd also have to change his number. For me #5 is way too much of a d-man's number

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

He was a beast last night. Could have scored 5 goals on that shift alone. Think they said it lasted 45 seconds or something in their zone.

It was over a minute. They made a full line change during that shift and kept possession.

As equally pathetic by the Flyers as it was impressive from the Penguins.

More than anything else, the Flyers look poorly conditioned and prepared, to start the season. They were constantly getting gassed, last night.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

Our PK finished 25th in the league last season and its currently sitting in 22nd thus far this season. Still needs A LOT of work.

 

[orby]

I didn't get to really pay attention to the game. How did Engelland do as a RW?

Not terrible, which is pretty much all you could ask for given the circumstances. As long as it opens up a spot for Bortuzzo, it's fine by me at this point.

I always thought Engelland had a bit of an offensive touch to his game...granted, he's not Brent Burns, but he's really not an awful option on the fourth line. Considering Craig Adams generally has the scoring prowess of a cardboard cutout, it might actually raise the standard a bit in that respect

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

No, it worked out better than I would have figured. But I still think Jeffrey gets a really bad rep, around here. He's not great... but he also isn't some bruiser and is basically forced to play bottom six minutes due to circumstance. So he's not in a great position to succeed. And naturally he gets crucified by the fans for it. Especially the "toughness" crowd. Oh well. I'm sure he'll be gone soon enough, regardless.

And for the record, I try to always put myself in "wait and see" mode. But it's difficult not to assume that "waiting for the other shoe to drop" mentality based on precedent. I know you can relate in regards to Fleury. That's why I brought him up.

Jeffrey can play in this league, that's all that matters. Hopefully he finds a role somewhere like Tube did, because both of these guys worked hard and deserve NHL careers. I know if a guy around these parts doesn't live up to lofty expectations, he is deemed worthless, but I generally want these guys to live their dreams, even if it isn't with the Pens, God forbid.

As for MAF, I know there are lots of haters and I'm a rare exception in thinking he can pull out of this three year funk. However, at least he didn't fold after giving the Flyers momentum late in the second. He made some great saves in the third and never got scrambly like he has done in the past.

I find hope in that, while others want to doubt him. To each their own.

IMHO he is the most talented goalie in the league physically, but he has to find a way to overcome his weak mental game. Last night was a baby step.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Fleury has a bit of a long road to travel when it comes to restoring his reputation. But he's already made strides. I really don't dislike Fleury. Far from it. I defended the guy for a long, long time, actually. It's very easy and often more than a little convenient to blame the goaltender, ya know? Especially when you go through stretches that this team tends to go through. Whether people acknowledge it or not, there have been lots of times where the team in front of him is simply not supporting him... which any goaltender needs -- but him especially. The team itself also has to take some responsibility for him coming off the rails. They sat on their hands waaaaaaaaay too long.

I thought he was outstanding last night, personally. The first 5-10 minutes of the third period is something I think he can really build on. He had just let up a late goal on the powerplay to end the second (on an outstanding deflection by Simmonds) and the team came out flat in the third. Lots of times in the past... he folds like a cheap tent, there. But he held off the tide... and largely without great support from his team. A great sign.

I would be ecstatic if Fleury played with this kind of chip on his shoulder all season. I like that he's a little out of his comfort zone and is playing to prove something. Everyone wins if he rounds back into form, basically. How can you not pull for that?

As for Jeffrey. I think you nailed it. I find it absurd when I see people claim the guy isn't even an NHLer. He most certainly is... possibly even a decent one. He just has no discernible role on this team.

 

[DegenX]

Have to agree that Engo didn't do that badly as a 4th liner. The idea continues to be intriguing ... it will be interesting to see how that plays out. I'm assuming that it was mostly because we were playing Philly, though, and that we'll be seeing Jeffery back in the line up tomorrow.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I don't mind Engo on the the fourth line at all. He's a better fighter than Glass, and he would appear to be a better protecting the puck and potentially even passing. Both of them are a mess in their own end, but Glass is just that way, and Engo could potentially improve.

Maybe he'll be our Glass replacement for next year at 1.1mil.

 

[themethod7]

Surprisingly good. His offensive instinct, at least in this game were... very sound, actually. He nearly scored a goal with Malkin double shifting on that line and almost set one up later on. He's also extremely difficult to knock off the puck, evidently. As he held it in the corner against pressure a few times.

But he has absolutely no idea what's going on in his own end at that position. That's perfectly understandable. But also potentially a problem until he can figure that facet of the position out, should this experiment be revisited.

I actually kind of like the idea of permanent position switch, if he proves capable of doing it. I think he ultimately holds more value to the team there than he does as a mostly-bad extra defenseman. He'd have to play exclusively on the fourth line, though. And that would necessitate tinkering with the current fourth line. Which seems... unlikely.

I'm telling you guys... Brent Burns 2.0. It's gonna happen.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Crosby should've had an assist on the second gaol. Dupuis didn't touch it.

Watch Crosby only out point Ovechkin by 22 points and out goal him by 10 and Hart voters give the reasoning of Crosby being a point and goal short of earning their vote that went to Ovechkin.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Fleury has a bit of a long road to travel when it comes to restoring his reputation. But he's already made strides. I really don't dislike Fleury. Far from it. I defended the guy for a long, long time, actually. It's very easy and often more than a little convenient to blame the goaltender, ya know? Especially when you go through stretches that this team tends to go through. Whether people acknowledge it or not, there have been lots of times where the team in front of him is simply not supporting him... which any goaltender needs -- but him especially. The team itself also has to take some responsibility for him coming off the rails. They sat on their hands waaaaaaaaay too long.

I thought he was outstanding last night, personally. The first 5-10 minutes of the third period is something I think he can really build on. He had just let up a late goal on the powerplay to end the second (on an outstanding deflection by Simmonds) and the team came out flat in the third. Lots of times in the past... he folds like a cheap tent, there. But he held off the tide... and largely without great support from his team. A great sign.

I would be ecstatic if Fleury played with this kind of chip on his shoulder all season. I like that he's a little out of his comfort zone and is playing to prove something. Everyone wins if he rounds back into form, basically. How can you not pull for that?

As for Jeffrey. I think you nailed it. I find it absurd when I see people claim the guy isn't even an NHLer. He most certainly is... possibly even a decent one. He just has no discernible role on this team.

MAF is a flake. I've said that for a long time, despite liking the guy and believing in him. The problem is the best goalies in this league are all mentally strong. I think this is the ultimate test of his career and he finally realizes his time as a Pen is in jeopardy.

I think fear is the greatest motivating factor you can give anyone, especially a gifted athlete like MAF. He also is a prideful athlete and wants to prove his legion of doubters wrong. That's why I think he will step up in the playoff this year.

He knows if he implodes again he is gone, period. Shero has been pretty transparent about sending MAF this very message in any interview I've seen since the Summer. He hasn't come right out and said it, but he has put the writing on the wall.

On the flip side, I've lost all confidence in DB because he just got a new extension for essentially being a choke artist. He should of been given a one year, "prove it" deal and had to actually earn a longer extension.

Both of these guys have a lot to prove and countless doubters, but unfortunately I only believe MAF is capable of turning things around right now (but I may change my mind on both at some point).

 

[radapex]

MAF is a flake. I've said that for a long time, despite liking the guy and believing in him. The problem is the best goalies in this league are all mentally strong. I think this is the ultimate test of his career and he finally realizes his time as a Pen is in jeopardy.

I think fear is the greatest motivating factor you can give anyone, especially a gifted athlete like MAF. He also is a prideful athlete and wants to prove his legion of doubters wrong. That's why I think he will step up in the playoff this year.

He knows if he implodes again he is gone, period. Shero has been pretty transparent about sending MAF this very message in any interview I've seen since the Summer. He hasn't come right out and said it, but he has put the writing on the wall.

On the flip side, I've lost all confidence in DB because he just got a new extension for essentially being a choke artist. He should of been given a one year, "prove it" deal and had to actually earn a longer extension.

Both of these guys have a lot to prove and countless doubters, but unfortunately I only believe MAF is capable of turning things around right now (but I may change my mind on both at some point).

Agreed completely. It's much more likely that Fleury figures it out than Bylsma suddenly changes his coaching philosophy.

Our best hope is that Martin plays a big role in the team's preparation and systems, especially come playoffs.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm with you, there.

Disco has a lot of positive qualities, though. As much as I doubt him. If he could get past his stubbornness and, yes... arrogance... he'd be much better off for it. It's almost like he doesn't have any interest in being tactically flexible and thinking around corners. He also has, IMO, major issues with coaching skill players and putting them in the best positions to succeed. I don't believe he understands them, at all.

I also don't truly understand the dynamic with him and JMartin yet, either. Games like last night and early in the season almost lead me to believe that he almost completely defers to him, tactically, in certain situations. Because the feel of last night's game was distinctly different from the previous few directly before that. And there were obvious system deviations from those games, as well.

Wait and see, I guess.

 

[Fordy]

I'm with you, there.

Disco has a lot of positive qualities, though. As much as I doubt him. If he could get past his stubbornness and, yes... arrogance... he'd be much better off for it. It's almost like he doesn't have any interest in being tactically flexible and thinking around corners. He also has, IMO, major issues with coaching skill players and putting them in the best positions to succeed. I don't believe he understands them, at all.

I also don't truly understand the dynamic with him and JMartin yet, either. Games like last night and early in the season almost lead me to believe that he almost completely defers to him, tactically, in certain situations. Because the feel of last night's game was distinctly different from the previous few directly before that. And there were obvious system deviations from those games, as well.

Wait and see, I guess.

It feels like he want to play grind these *****es down hockey against weaker teams, but defers to Martin's more defensively sound system against the rivals/good teams. Which isn't half bad if you ask me.

 

[Til the End of Time]

MAF is a flake. I've said that for a long time, despite liking the guy and believing in him. The problem is the best goalies in this league are all mentally strong. I think this is the ultimate test of his career and he finally realizes his time as a Pen is in jeopardy.

I think fear is the greatest motivating factor you can give anyone, especially a gifted athlete like MAF. He also is a prideful athlete and wants to prove his legion of doubters wrong. That's why I think he will step up in the playoff this year.

He knows if he implodes again he is gone, period. Shero has been pretty transparent about sending MAF this very message in any interview I've seen since the Summer. He hasn't come right out and said it, but he has put the writing on the wall.

On the flip side, I've lost all confidence in DB because he just got a new extension for essentially being a choke artist. He should of been given a one year, "prove it" deal and had to actually earn a longer extension.

Both of these guys have a lot to prove and countless doubters, but unfortunately I only believe MAF is capable of turning things around right now (but I may change my mind on both at some point).

do you really think it is wise for a team with obvious cup aspirations to have a flake in net, who (assuming he does play better) only plays at an acceptable level when his career is on the line?

it is impossible for fleury to play worse in the postseason than he has for the past several years. my fear is that he plays better/semi-ok in the playoffs, which is reasonable considering what great lengths the penguins have gone to insulate him. penguins lose, but fleury isnt horrifically bad. shero then resigns him thus screwing this team for the next several years.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It feels like he want to play grind these *****es down hockey against weaker teams, but defers to Martin's more defensively sound system against the rivals/good teams. Which isn't half bad if you ask me.

It's an interesting way of doing things. Potentially effective but also rather redundant.