Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Flyers & Pens

[Al Smith]

IMHO he is the most talented goalie in the league physically, but he has to find a way to overcome his weak mental game. Last night was a baby step.

It's hard to tell if he's taking baby steps toward any long-term improvement. We've all seen him play a lot of games - or even series of games - where he was really steady, but you never know when he's going to go bonkers. For example, IIRC, he was steady as a rock in the first game of the Islanders series last year, even though the Islanders were a little shell shocked. And then all of a sudden, bad Fleury showed up. I just don't think you can make any judgments based on the regular season anymore.

OTOH, the way I look at it, for 82 games, he's better than just about any other goalie this franchise has had for the past 46 years or so. So it could be (and has been) a lot worse. Playoffs are unfortunately a complete crapshoot.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

One encouraging sign is that he hasn't let in a bad goal so far. Most have actually been shots that were tipped and changed direction. Of course it only matters how he handles the playoffs once teams start swarming him.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

MAF is a flake. I've said that for a long time, despite liking the guy and believing in him. The problem is the best goalies in this league are all mentally strong. I think this is the ultimate test of his career and he finally realizes his time as a Pen is in jeopardy.

I think fear is the greatest motivating factor you can give anyone, especially a gifted athlete like MAF. He also is a prideful athlete and wants to prove his legion of doubters wrong. That's why I think he will step up in the playoff this year.

He knows if he implodes again he is gone, period. Shero has been pretty transparent about sending MAF this very message in any interview I've seen since the Summer. He hasn't come right out and said it, but he has put the writing on the wall.

On the flip side, I've lost all confidence in DB because he just got a new extension for essentially being a choke artist. He should of been given a one year, "prove it" deal and had to actually earn a longer extension.

Both of these guys have a lot to prove and countless doubters, but unfortunately I only believe MAF is capable of turning things around right now (but I may change my mind on both at some point).

Also people are forgetting new goalie coach, and potentially a philosophy change as far as whatever the hiring of Jacques Martin means. I have always been vocal that goalie is as much about system and players around the goalie as the goalie himself. Look only as far as Philly who bring in goalies with sparking stats padded by systems, then discard others who shine in strongly defensive systems.

So there is more reasons for some hope other than Fleury scared for his job. On the other hand few are willing to give much of a benefit of the doubt and need to see it given so many recent meltdowns.

 

[IcedCapp]

I actually thought the Flyers carried the pace for stretches and that MAF was magnificent.

Fleury has been a major reason the Pens have struggled in the PLAYOFFS, but listening to some of the media talk about how he's been - it's like everyone forgets, he's been quite good in the regular season.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'm with you, there.

Disco has a lot of positive qualities, though. As much as I doubt him. If he could get past his stubbornness and, yes... arrogance... he'd be much better off for it. It's almost like he doesn't have any interest in being tactically flexible and thinking around corners. He also has, IMO, major issues with coaching skill players and putting them in the best positions to succeed. I don't believe he understands them, at all.

I also don't truly understand the dynamic with him and JMartin yet, either. Games like last night and early in the season almost lead me to believe that he almost completely defers to him, tactically, in certain situations. Because the feel of last night's game was distinctly different from the previous few directly before that. And there were obvious system deviations from those games, as well.

Wait and see, I guess.

It's funny because I used to enjoy watching the game more when I was a kid and didn't understand it like I do after 25+ years of watching/playing etc. Every coach and player was awesome when I was ten.

I sat there in the third shaking my head wondering why they went from an expanded wedge/1 to pressure Philly's PP effectively, to a passive box in the third (and gave up a ton of quality chances).

It's little stuff like this that really adds up and makes me wonder if DB will ever really figure things out.

Why DB goes away from things that are effective perplexes me to no end. I just have to let it go and hope it works out.

There are far worse tragedies.

do you really think it is wise for a team with obvious cup aspirations to have a flake in net, who (assuming he does play better) only plays at an acceptable level when his career is on the line?

it is impossible for fleury to play worse in the postseason than he has for the past several years. my fear is that he plays better/semi-ok in the playoffs, which is reasonable considering what great lengths the penguins have gone to insulate him. penguins lose, but fleury isnt horrifically bad. shero then resigns him thus screwing this team for the next several years.

I don't think it's ideal, but given the other options I felt Shero made a good call. MAF has been quite above avg in the regular season and he had Vokoun as the backup plan in case MAF flaked out once again come playoff time.

Of course it's the Pens recent luck that Vokoun is out now, but Shero has no way of knowing that would happen.

If MAF does decent in the playoffs, there is no rush to sign him. They can still let him ride out two more playoffs before giving him a new deal. I know you will say that is two more years of Crosby and Malkin being wasted. True, but what are the options? You won't find any money goalies just floating around the FA market.

All we can do is hope, because I doubt Vokoun is coming back to save them, while the other realistic options left aren't markedly better.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

It's hard to tell if he's taking baby steps toward any long-term improvement. We've all seen him play a lot of games - or even series of games - where he was really steady, but you never know when he's going to go bonkers. For example, IIRC, he was steady as a rock in the first game of the Islanders series last year, even though the Islanders were a little shell shocked. And then all of a sudden, bad Fleury showed up. I just don't think you can make any judgments based on the regular season anymore.

OTOH, the way I look at it, for 82 games, he's better than just about any other goalie this franchise has had for the past 46 years or so. So it could be (and has been) a lot worse. Playoffs are unfortunately a complete crapshoot.

You don't know, really. That's what blows. It's like living with a schizo, but not wanting to give up collecting survival knives. You know it could end... badly... but you hope it doesn't.

I just know if he is going to find his form again, it has to start somewhere. So any time he faces his own self inflicted adversity like last night, and he doesn't flake out, it's a building block.

That's about the best I can say for now.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

It's funny because I used to enjoy watching the game more when I was a kid and didn't understand it like I do after 25+ years of watching/playing etc. Every coach and player was awesome when I was ten.

I sat there in the third shaking my head wondering why they went from an expanded wedge/1 to pressure Philly's PP effectively, to a passive box in the third (and gave up a ton of quality chances).

It's little stuff like this that really adds up and makes me wonder if DB will ever really figure things out.

Why DB goes away from things that are effective perplexes me to no end. I just have to let it go and hope it works out.

There are far worse tragedies.



I don't think it's ideal, but given the other options I felt Shero made a good call. MAF has been quite above avg in the regular season and he had Vokoun as the backup plan in case MAF flaked out once again come playoff time.

Of course it's the Pens recent luck that Vokoun is out now, but Shero has no way of knowing that would happen.

If MAF does decent in the playoffs, there is no rush to sign him. They can still let him ride out two more playoffs before giving him a new deal. I know you will say that is two more years of Crosby and Malkin being wasted. True, but what are the options? You won't find any money goalies just floating around the FA market.

All we can do is hope, because I doubt Vokoun is coming back to save them, while the other realistic options left aren't markedly better.

I always hate when posters (not singling anyone out, it is rampant at HF) gripe about this player or that and that so and so should be replaced without giving a reasonable alternative. HE HAS TO GO! Cool, hand out some names if we do buy him out. Tim Thomas for instance is being lit up like a Christmas tree in Florida.

The Pens were on the hook for if I remember right $11 million. Yeah one of our owners is a billionaire who would not miss it much but still that is a lot of cash. Second, who that was available did not have warts? There really was not anyone who was less of a gamble than Fleury would be. Even if you trade significant parts of your team like the Flyers in effect did with Bryz.

I understand griping, I do a ton of it myself. But if you are going to throw someone under the bus show a reasonable alternative with a reasonable cost attached, including the cap space we would have to clear for that star goalie and the assets that we would have to trade, so that people can evaluate said tossing under the bus fairly.

 

[Darth Vitale]

+ Flyers at 1-7-0, their worst start in franchise history.

[/thread]

 

[radapex]

do you really think it is wise for a team with obvious cup aspirations to have a flake in net, who (assuming he does play better) only plays at an acceptable level when his career is on the line?

it is impossible for fleury to play worse in the postseason than he has for the past several years. my fear is that he plays better/semi-ok in the playoffs, which is reasonable considering what great lengths the penguins have gone to insulate him. penguins lose, but fleury isnt horrifically bad. shero then resigns him thus screwing this team for the next several years.

Regardless of how Fleury plays this seasons and into the playoffs, if he does get re-signed I think you'll see it at a significant pay cut ($3- to $3.5-mil per year).

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I actually don't think Fleury's contract is that huge of an albatross. Especially beyond this falsely-constricted cap season.

You could save more money just biting the bullet and going with a mini-youth-movement on the blueline. Which I think is past due, anyway.

 

[radapex]

Here are some "League Leader" pluses...

+ Crosby leads the league with 14 points
+ Crosby is second in goal scoring with 6 (T Hertl - 7)
+ Crosby is second in assists with 8 (H Sedin - 9)
+ Niskanen leads the league in +/- (+10)
+ Kunitz is tied for fouth in the league in +/- (+8)
+ Fleury is tied for the league lead in wins (6)
+ Fleury is tied for the league lead in shutouts (1)

 

[alcanalz]

Regardless of how Fleury plays this seasons and into the playoffs, if he does get re-signed I think you'll see it at a significant pay cut ($3- to $3.5-mil per year).

It really does depend on his play I think. If he posts good numbers in the regular season and plays very well in the playoffs, wouldn't be surprised at all to see 5~ again.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

The positives:

+Team defence. Every D-man looked good tonight, Orpik perhaps being the lone exception.

+First line. Kunitz creating chances and Sid finishing when he had the opportunity.

+Jussi Jokinen. A legitimate, solid 2nd line winger, to be sure.

+Malkin. Good two-way play tonight

+++MAF. Great game, hope he keeps up this level of play!

The negatives:

-The PP.

It's missing something, not sure what. Maybe the legit sniping threat Neal provides? A dangerous point shot option? Net front presence? All these areas could be improved to be sure, not sure what the biggest factor in holding them back actually is though. There certainly is enough talent on the ice.

-Kobasew on the second line.

He is an iffy third line option in my eyes, and to be blunt, looks lost playing in the top 6. Can't wait to see how that line gels when Neal gets back, they looked deadly in preseason.



For all the flak he takes, Niskanen is bringing some much needed (considering who is injured atm) offensive spark from the blue line.

I agree with most of this.

As for Nisky, IMO, he's only putting up the numbers he is because he's taking Tanger's time. Once He's back Nisky's numbers are gonna drop a lot.

 

[IcedCapp]

I actually don't think Fleury's contract is that huge of an albatross. Especially beyond this falsely-constricted cap season.

You could save more money just biting the bullet and going with a mini-youth-movement on the blueline. Which I think is past due, anyway.

it's an albatross if he melts down in the playoffs. It's perfectly fine+ if he can be an average or above average playoff goalie.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

it's an albatross if he melts down in the playoffs.

True enough. Though he could be making a quarter of his salary and that would still be true. If he is cut loose... you have to replace him. And I don't think the savings would really be that significant.

Though obviously if his hypothetical replacement can simply prove to be dependable when it counts... then the savings you are talking about by signing someone else is of a totally different variety. And much more significant.

 

[Til the End of Time]

will respond more later but i think this team would have been much better off buying out fleury and signing ray emery.

emery could deliver comparable regular season numbers (fleurys were always slightly below average) and wins. hes also not a proven playoff disaster.

that would have saved the pens 3 million per year to address their lacking bottom six. also would have a sent a strong message to the team that accountability still exists in this organization-- you're the worst playoff goalie in the league, you're gone, no matter how much everyone likes you.

 

[IcedCapp]

True enough. Though he could be making a quarter of his salary and that would still be true. If he is cut loose... you have to replace him. And I don't think the savings would really be that significant.

Though obviously if his hypothetical replacement can simply prove to be dependable when it counts... then the savings you are talking about by signing someone else is of a totally different variety. And much more significant.

I wanted him bought out in the off-season, but that was the fan in me and I really didn't have an answer for who would be in net. I didn't care, I just wanted him gone.

Obviously, hindsight being what it is, Vokoun's illness makes keeping Fleury look like a stroke of genius.

That said, and despite how he's played -so far- i'd still be keeping my options open. If Lundqvist doesn't sign an extension, I'd be more than willing to pay him market value to play net. 2013 Fleury should be viewed, imo, as a stopgap (pending his playoff performance)

 

[billybudd]

will respond more later but i think this team would have been much better off buying out fleury and signing ray emery.

emery could deliver comparable regular season numbers (fleurys were always slightly below average) and wins. hes also not a proven playoff disaster.

that would have saved the pens 3 million per year to address their lacking bottom six. also would have a sent a strong message to the team that accountability still exists in this organization-- you're the worst playoff goalie in the league, you're gone, no matter how much everyone likes you.

I've been as hard on Fleury as anyone, but Emery's a Rick Dipietro now. His lateral movement is nonexistent. He can't get from one side of the crease to the other in anything approaching NHL time.

Check out a Flyers game next time he starts. Don't care what his numbers were last year; Emery is physically incapable of playing the game on the level an NHL goaltender needs to.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

That said, and despite how he's played -so far- i'd still be keeping my options open. If Lundqvist doesn't sign an extension, I'd be more than willing to pay him market value to play net. 2013 Fleury should be viewed, imo, as a stopgap (pending his playoff performance)

That seems perfectly sensible, to me.

I'm encouraged by Fleury's start... and the way that he's had this fast start. But it's not like I've suddenly forgotten the massive turds he's very recently blasted out in his crease for no particular reason.

 

[radapex]

I've been as hard on Fleury as anyone, but Emery's a Rick Dipietro now. His lateral movement is nonexistent. He can't get from one side of the crease to the other in anything approaching NHL time.

Check out a Flyers game next time he starts. Don't care what his numbers were last year; Emery is physically incapable of playing the game on the level an NHL goaltender needs to.

Yeah, Emery is brutal. I picked him up as a #3 (bench) goalie in Yahoo Fantasy Hockey figuring he'd at least challenge Mason for the starting job. Huge mistake

 

[billybudd]

Yeah, Emery is brutal. I picked him up as a #3 (bench) goalie in Yahoo Fantasy Hockey figuring he'd at least challenge Mason for the starting job. Huge mistake

It's not even the numbers (at least, not yet). He flunks the eyeball test badly.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

will respond more later but i think this team would have been much better off buying out fleury and signing ray emery.

emery could deliver comparable regular season numbers (fleurys were always slightly below average) and wins. hes also not a proven playoff disaster.

that would have saved the pens 3 million per year to address their lacking bottom six. also would have a sent a strong message to the team that accountability still exists in this organization-- you're the worst playoff goalie in the league, you're gone, no matter how much everyone likes you.

Emery is a head case who has major difficulty going post to post.

It's time he pursues his boxing career IMHO.

 

[Shady Machine]

Crosby has been really good this year, but I'm a bit annoyed that he is getting over 2 min more of ice time per game than Geno. Also Geno is getting at least a minute less than pretty much any other superstar (Stamkos, Hall, St Louis, Datsyuk, Ovy, Sedins, Tavares, Kessel, etc).

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah... I'm not too sure what's up with Malkin's relative lack of ES time, especially. I know his line is struggling a bit, ES... but I thought it was understood that you feed Geno ice time and responsibility if you want to get him going. And then ride him like a horse all game when he does inevitably start to flash signs of dominance.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Scrabbles and Joey V. must play on the same line all the time.