Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Flyers & Pens

[#66]

Jeffrey can play in this league, that's all that matters. Hopefully he finds a role somewhere like Tube did, because both of these guys worked hard and deserve NHL careers. I know if a guy around these parts doesn't live up to lofty expectations, he is deemed worthless, but I generally want these guys to live their dreams, even if it isn't with the Pens, God forbid.

As for MAF, I know there are lots of haters and I'm a rare exception in thinking he can pull out of this three year funk. However, at least he didn't fold after giving the Flyers momentum late in the second. He made some great saves in the third and never got scrambly like he has done in the past.

I find hope in that, while others want to doubt him. To each their own.

IMHO he is the most talented goalie in the league physically, but he has to find a way to overcome his weak mental game. Last night was a baby step.

Good call.

I think this is the first year in a long time, maybe the first years since MT has been around, that MAF has shown an improvement.

IMO a lot of it has to do with the Pens not making peewee mistakes in front of him but he has cleaned up his game a lot. At the very least its a great start to getting back on track.

And quiets down the Miller rumors... IMO the most over rated player in the league.

 

[ColePens]

I mean.. Flower has been amazing in the regular season for awhile now. He's created his own monster in the postseason. We cannot compare the two. The demons will have to be seen in the postseason. Same goes for the rest of this team.

Do I think they can be in 1st place on talent alone? Yup. It's in the 7 games series where we need to win.

 

[JTG]

The goals this season on MAF have, for the most part, been deflections. He's not letting in those softies when he's squared up, which is good.

Goals like the one was scored last night on him don't bother me. The goal Eric Staal scored doesn't bother me. It's the ones from bad angles that squeak through that drive me nuts.

 

[#66]

The goals this season on MAF have, for the most part, been deflections. He's not letting in those softies when he's squared up, which is good.

Goals like the one was scored last night on him don't bother me. The goal Eric Staal scored doesn't bother me. It's the ones from bad angles that squeak through that drive me nuts.

Yeah I have problems with pucks going through goalies more than beating them. The thing is that I've always felt that MAF could never focus on pucks because the play around his net was so weak.

Look at that Flyers series from 2 years ago. MAF looked good in game one, gave up the winner to Voracek on a back door play and always seemed to overplay the back door the rest of the series. He was making moves to go cross crease before the puck was even there. What goalie wouldn't turn to crap that way? Look at "The King" now that he doesn't have 5 shot blockers in front of him.

 

[WayneSid9987]

These wins from MAF, so far, are nothing like his usual season wins though. He'd almost always let in a softie or quick response goal to give other teams some hope OR to tie a hockey game.

It's been a great 6 games from him and the competition will ramp up some here so it'll be a good test.

 

[66-30-33]

The goals this season on MAF have, for the most part, been deflections. He's not letting in those softies when he's squared up, which is good.

Goals like the one was scored last night on him don't bother me. The goal Eric Staal scored doesn't bother me. It's the ones from bad angles that squeak through that drive me nuts.

So far so good with that new goalie coach. Hope between him and the sports psycologist(sp), we can finally get Fleury to his REAL potential.

 

[Cardboard Orpik]

Between the new goalie coach, the sports psychologist, and a more solid defensive system under JM, Fleury might just have a chance in the playoffs.

I still won't be comfortable without Vokoun healthy though.

 

[Til the End of Time]

we like to contrast fleury's horrific playoff outings with his "great success" in the regular season, but he's never even been particularly good in the regular season.

his regular season numbers have been remarkably average or more precisely below average. the exception of course-- his win totals have been above average, true, but he has benefited tremendously from playing on a powerhouse team, and has never delivered numbers statistically significant above his backups.

bottom line-- people like to say fleury is the "most physically talented" goalie in the league. i dont buy it. quick, price, hell even lehtonen was widely considered to be better/more physical gifted than fleury when they both broke into the league. yet even if that were the case, there is more to being a good goalie than physical talent. the mental aspect is equally if not more important than raw physical talent. and fleury sucks at that critical aspect.

its like saying rob schremp was the most talented player from great 2003 draft. sure, great, he had great hands playing in syracause, but that amounts to a hill of beans when you are a mental midget.

fleury sucks and the sooner this organization tells his lazy ass to get lost the better. this organization has gone to extreme lengths to protect his pathetic ass, no one should be impressed by what he does in the regular season. he can win the vezina for all i care, he's still a loser. the only thing that matters is the playoffs, and he's already proven himself to be among the worst of all-time.

 

[Til the End of Time]

I mean.. Flower has been amazing in the regular season for awhile now. He's created his own monster in the postseason. We cannot compare the two. The demons will have to be seen in the postseason. Same goes for the rest of this team.

Do I think they can be in 1st place on talent alone? Yup. It's in the 7 games series where we need to win.

fleury has never been amazing in the regular season. i'm sure you are just exaggerating his regular season play to contrast it with how embarrassing his post-season play has been, but this notion that he's some sort of regular season stalwart is wrong and needs to end.

 

[Tender Rip]

fleury has never been amazing in the regular season. i'm sure you are just exaggerating his regular season play to contrast it with how embarrassing his post-season play has been, but this notion that he's some sort of regular season stalwart is wrong and needs to end.

I would usually agree with you on this, and indeed I think too much has been made of his wins record. He has however looked real sharp to start this season, and as he isn't going anywhere for right now, one might do well to take the guardedly optimistic view for now...

 

[Til the End of Time]

I would usually agree with you on this, and indeed I think too much has been made of his wins record. He has however looked real sharp to start this season, and as he isn't going anywhere for right now, one might do well to take the guardedly optimistic view for now...

i agree, he's looked quite good to start the season. i've been pretty surprised/impressed by his play thus far, to be honest.

however, i'm not going to root for the guy just because he wears a penguins sweater.

when shero went to fleury after the flyers series and told him to seek outside help and fleury refused, it became quite clear that fleury is arrogant and stupid. i went from being a huge fan of fleury who watched his first nhl game making that amazing kick save on frolov to rooting against him. i do not like seeing such stubborn, cocky individuals play on my favorite sports team. i hope fleury has a nice life outside of hockey, but i want him gone from the penguins organization. i do not hold any sort of "guarded optimism" for fleury, and actually hope he performs poorly, enough to finally get him removed from this organization, so that this team with supposed cup aspirations can finally stop employing the leagues worst playoff goalie.

 

[Tender Rip]

i agree, he's looked quite good to start the season. i've been pretty surprised/impressed by his play thus far, to be honest.

however, i'm not going to root for the guy just because he wears a penguins sweater.

when shero went to fleury after the flyers series and told him to seek outside help and fleury refused, it became quite clear that fleury is arrogant and stupid. i went from being a huge fan of fleury who watched his first nhl game making that amazing kick save on frolov to rooting against him. i do not like seeing such stubborn, cocky individuals play on my favorite sports team. i hope fleury has a nice life outside of hockey, but i want him gone from the penguins organization. i do not hold any sort of "guarded optimism" for fleury, and actually hope he performs poorly, enough to finally get him removed from this organization, so that this team with supposed cup aspirations can finally stop employing the leagues worst playoff goalie.

I find it absurd for anyone to make character assassinations like the above based on what you believe his response was like to an inquiry that was likely made, regarding which you however know nothing of the context nor the conversation to follow.
You write as if he - otherwise regarded as one of the most friendly and accessible players on the roster - date ***** your sister. It is way out of proportion.

There's more than enough to dislike about Fleury's performances post-cup that one can make reasonable criticism without emotive BS like that. But that's just me. Different strokes, I guess.

 

[#66]

I find it absurd for anyone to make character assassinations like the above based on what you believe his response was like to an inquiry that was likely made, regarding which you however know nothing of the context nor the conversation to follow.
You write as if he - otherwise regarded as one of the most friendly and accessible players on the roster - date ***** your sister. It is way out of proportion.

There's more than enough to dislike about Fleury's performances post-cup that one can make reasonable criticism without emotive BS like that. But that's just me. Different strokes, I guess.

Till isn't the only poster that thinks that way. MAF has brought that on himself. He has to prove otherwise.

The big thing for me is... where was all of this when MAF was 20 or 22? Talk about his mental game and flaws go way back. The same exact problems he corrected this summer have been around for such a long time. So why wasn't it corrected back when most of us saw them.

The Pens are the problem here... They sit around and hope for good players rather than making them. We can have this exact same convo about Letang and his mental mistakes. They've gotten better since the old Morozov days but I haven't had a real comfort level with the Pens player development until the last few years.

IMO none of those Army, MAF and Talbot era players ended up as good as they're supposed to be. This goes right on to Goligoski and how he's playing right now.

 

[Tender Rip]

He has to prove otherwise.

On the ice! Critique his performances, want him traded, consider it a blemish on the organization that he hasn't been.... I won't say a peep.

But no one here, I think, has enough knowledge of what Fleury is like as a person to use ad hominem stuff as the reason to grill him. To me it simply disqualifies otherwise most often valid criticism. It seems childish if not simply stupid.

IMO none of those Army, MAF and Talbot era players ended up as good as they're supposed to be. This goes right on to Goligoski and how he's playing right now.

Well, statistically those were pretty good picks considering the output we have gotten, although MAF of course should not have been a 1st overall considering how strong that draft year was. Army in retrospect was not worthy of being a 1st rounder, but he was highly rated and dropped to us, and there were at least 5 players picked higher who amounted to a lot less in the NHL. Again Kobasew was picked earlier and Steckel was a 1st rounder that year. Talbot and Gogo were massive success stories for us.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

Yeah Fleury might be a lot of things, but arrogant isn't one of them. If anything, he gets too down on himself. Patrick Roy is arrogant as ****, yet I'd LOVE to have vintage Roy on this team regardless of how big of a dink he can be sometimes.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Till isn't the only poster that thinks that way. MAF has brought that on himself. He has to prove otherwise.

The big thing for me is... where was all of this when MAF was 20 or 22? Talk about his mental game and flaws go way back. The same exact problems he corrected this summer have been around for such a long time. So why wasn't it corrected back when most of us saw them.

The Pens are the problem here... They sit around and hope for good players rather than making them. We can have this exact same convo about Letang and his mental mistakes. They've gotten better since the old Morozov days but I haven't had a real comfort level with the Pens player development until the last few years.

IMO none of those Army, MAF and Talbot era players ended up as good as they're supposed to be. This goes right on to Goligoski and how he's playing right now.

Scuderi became a hell of a lot better than he was supposed to be, and he was developed at the same time as the players you mentioned.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

we like to contrast fleury's horrific playoff outings with his "great success" in the regular season, but he's never even been particularly good in the regular season.

his regular season numbers have been remarkably average or more precisely below average. the exception of course-- his win totals have been above average, true, but he has benefited tremendously from playing on a powerhouse team, and has never delivered numbers statistically significant above his backups.

bottom line-- people like to say fleury is the "most physically talented" goalie in the league. i dont buy it. quick, price, hell even lehtonen was widely considered to be better/more physical gifted than fleury when they both broke into the league. yet even if that were the case, there is more to being a good goalie than physical talent. the mental aspect is equally if not more important than raw physical talent. and fleury sucks at that critical aspect.

its like saying rob schremp was the most talented player from great 2003 draft. sure, great, he had great hands playing in syracause, but that amounts to a hill of beans when you are a mental midget.

fleury sucks and the sooner this organization tells his lazy ass to get lost the better. this organization has gone to extreme lengths to protect his pathetic ass, no one should be impressed by what he does in the regular season. he can win the vezina for all i care, he's still a loser. the only thing that matters is the playoffs, and he's already proven himself to be among the worst of all-time.

No he wasn't. He was considered more technically sound, but never more physically gifted.

Schremp was a crap skater who was physically weak and didn't get the whole aspect of actually having to play, you know, defense. He had sick hands, but wasn't physically gifted. He had physical limitations, that in the end, held him back.

MAF is gifted and proved he can be a championship goalie. That's exactly why we should keep hoping he gets his **** together, because as I keep pointing out, the alternatives blow.

I mean, you are bagging on MAF, but want a slow head case like Emery to backstop this team?

That's almost as good an idea as drinking Drano.

 

[IcedCapp]

So far this season:

Sutter 58.7%
Jeffrey 55.6%
Malkin 54.4%
Vitale 54%
Crosby 51.9%

Sid had a rough outing against the flyers but were good before that. He is also taking a ton of our faceoffs, averaging around 25 per game.

those stats don't tell the whole story, either. Sid has taken 100 more face-offs than Suter (2nd on the team). I didn't go through each and every team to see if that was the biggest disparity between 1st and 2nd, but it's pretty large.

If Malkin, Sutter, and Vitale (haha, just kidding on Vitale) keep up their % with a larger sample, I'm sure they'll be trusted to take more draws.

 

[Ogrezilla]

those stats don't tell the whole story, either. Sid has taken 100 more face-offs than Suter (2nd on the team). I didn't go through each and every team to see if that was the biggest disparity between 1st and 2nd, but it's pretty large.

If Malkin, Sutter, and Vitale (haha, just kidding on Vitale) keep up their % with a larger sample, I'm sure they'll be trusted to take more draws.

Other teams will also be more likely to put their best faceoff guy against Crosby than Sutter. We need a faceoff QualComp stat

 

[IcedCapp]

Other teams will also be more likely to put their best faceoff guy against Crosby than Sutter. We need a faceoff QualComp stat

for sure (and vice versa as well)

I'd love to see RHS/LHS splits, too. I swear Sid struggles against RHS in the dot

 

[Ogrezilla]

for sure (and vice versa as well)

I'd love to see RHS/LHS splits, too. I swear Sid struggles against RHS in the dot

That is possible. I don't pay much attention to that kind of detail.

 

[wej20]

So far this season:

Sutter 58.7%
Jeffrey 55.6%
Malkin 54.4%
Vitale 54%
Crosby 51.9%

Sid had a rough outing against the flyers but were good before that. He is also taking a ton of our faceoffs, averaging around 25 per game.

Malkin above 50% on draws! Fleury yet to let in a softie! Did we enter the twilight zone when I wasn't looking?

 

[IcedCapp]

Malkin above 50% on draws! Fleury yet to let in a softie! Did we enter the twilight zone when I wasn't looking?

give it a month! Especially for Fleury.

(Actually, while Flower's played great, I feel like he's had some pretty amazing puck luck so far. All the bad bounces he'd get in the past have been good ones this year)

 

[Trepanated]

those stats don't tell the whole story, either. Sid has taken 100 more face-offs than Suter (2nd on the team). I didn't go through each and every team to see if that was the biggest disparity between 1st and 2nd, but it's pretty large.

If Malkin, Sutter, and Vitale (haha, just kidding on Vitale) keep up their % with a larger sample, I'm sure they'll be trusted to take more draws.

Without checking the actual numbers, I'd be willing to bet it's all the shorthanded draws that Sid takes. I'd be very curious what the numbers look like at even strength only. Any team's FO% (and virtually any individual with a large enough sample to work with) will drop while shorthanded. As we've seen, Sid is taking a hugely disproportional number of the faceoffs while shorthanded this year.

 

[stefanh]

Without checking the actual numbers, I'd be willing to bet it's all the shorthanded draws that Sid takes. I'd be very curious what the numbers look like at even strength only. Any team's FO% (and virtually any individual with a large enough sample to work with) will drop while shorthanded. As we've seen, Sid is taking a hugely disproportional number of the faceoffs while shorthanded this year.

Sid has been awful shorthanded so far. Won 3 out of 14 for 21%
Sutter on the other hand have won 8 out of 13 for 62%
Vitale 6 of 11 for 55%

At even strenght Sid have won 54% of his draws.