Claude Giroux: "Reasons to be Cheerful Part III"

[kudymen]

Points aren't heavy enough. Terrible captain. Trade the bum.

We don't need player points. We need the team to score goals and win - and assists or goals by players don't help there.

 

[Striiker]

Points aren't heavy enough. Terrible captain. Trade the bum.

Yeah, a certain fruit poster says points don’t matter.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Makes you wonder how would balanced look away from AM. What a stud! Him, Johnny hpckey , Eichel and Ghost are bound to win one Olympic gold at least.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Crosby and Giroux are super cap-efficient.

 

[Appleyard]

I thought it was pretty interesting... shows just how smart he is and just how good a passer. To have the puck so often, create so many goals etc, make crazy blind passes, passes through traffic etc, but so rarely turn the puck over.

 

[Appleyard]

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

He's still Batman to me, damnit.

 

[AdamParrot]

I'm so glad that our NOVA TV (television) one day after draft 2006 broadcasted that Bobby Clarke's fail as a special news for fans. It was that fail how Clarke bad spelled Claude's name. Haha.

I saw that then I searched 'Claude Giroux' on google, readed stories about him and he was my favourite player and he still is. Claude Giroux. FOREVER! Due to Clarke and him I'm fan of the Philadelphia Flyers.

BTW, I was 9 years old in 2006, I was big fan of NHL pc games and I wanted someone team who will be my favourite team. And my uncle was a fan of Flyers too (he loved Lindros with LeClair) so it was another reason why I picked Flyers over Flames (I really, really love Iginla due to NHL pc games where he was totally overpowered).

 

[Here4ThaLids]

Here's his goal from last night:



I've yet to gather my jaw from the floor. I've seen players go between the legs starting from behind, and of course lift a defenseman's stick, but to do both together like that and in one uninterrupted motion, well, it's like he practiced it 10,000 times over the summer. It's so incredibly fluid.

You very rarely see Vasilevskiy get beaten that badly, and for good reason - there's just no reason for Giroux to be where he is. He should be ten feet away from that spot, without the puck.

 

[Striiker]

He’s absolutely nuts.

How many decades until we have a player on his level again?

 

[Appleyard]

 

[wankstifier]

From the highlights, seems like Giroux manhandled McDonagh last night.

The stick lift/dangle on his goal and the first assist later in the game were both dominant plays against a larger, skilled defender.

 

[baudib1]

Giroux's rank among recent Hall of Fame centers
This is just a fun little mental exercise I decided to write about, it's not too scientific (no fancy numbers here!)

I assume that everyone here realizes that Claude Giroux should be a future Hall of Famer. Of course his career is not over but it's basically at the point where his induction should be a certainty. If he hits 100 points this year he'll have at least 767 for his career; that leaves him less than 4 seasons at 60 points/year to get over 1,000. 1,000 in this era should be enough; it seems to me more likely that he hits 1,200 than under 1,000.

It usually takes the HOF a couple years before it realizes it should put in a candidate who played for the Flyers. Since Giroux has been a classically under-appreciated player I thought I'd try to rank him among HOF centers.

His peak and prime value is really high and probably underrated by league observers as a whole. Going through the list of Hall of Fame centers elected since 1990, his peak/prime value is probably somewhere in the middle. There are 23 HOF Cs elected in that time frame; I'll toss in 3 guys contemporaries in Crosby, Malkin and Toews who will all go in as well.

Here are the guys who are better than Giroux, peak value, sorta in order, and I don't think anyone will argue about this:

Gretzky
Lemieux

Crosby
Messier
Trottier

Lindros
Forsberg



Here are the guys I think are better than Giroux, and so does everyone else, but it's closer than you might think. Not that it's end-all, be-all, but I'm going to list everyone's Hart Trophies, and top 10 Hart Trophy finishes:

Yzerman 0 awards, 6 top 10 finishes
Larionov 0, 0 - Soviet credit
Sakic 1 award, 9 top 10 finishes
Gilmour 0 awards, 4 top 10 finishes
Fedorov 1 award, 3 top 10 finishes
Malkin 1 award, 4 top 10 finishes
Dionne 0 awards, 6 top 10 finishes
Francis o awards, 2 top 1o finishes

I'd put Giroux about here. When I started ranking these guys, I wanted to put Giroux ahead of Francis, but in looking at Francis' record, I couldn't justify it. They're directly comparable players. For his era, Giroux is a better goal scorer, but Francis is probably an even better passer and PP specialist. Francis led the league in assists twice after the age of 30 and he won a Selke. Other than Malkin, who is still going strong, all of the guys in this group had very long careers -- so long that it'd be hard for Giroux to pass them in career value, but here's hoping.

I swear I didn't make this list up by going off Hart Trophy voting, but it correlates pretty well with how I ranked them. Giroux has 3 top 10 finishes. He fits in with this group of players (none of whom won a Hart), somewhere near the top:

Perreault 4 top 10 finishes
LaFontaine 2 top 10 finishes - When healthy, basically a clone for the flashy part of Yzerman's career
Stastny 3 top 10 finishes -- might deserve some non-NHL credit
Toews 4 top 10 finishes -- He'd rank higher if he was even an average PP performer
Hawerchuk 4 top 10 finishes -- sexy stats but played in the highest-scoring division in the highest-scoring era ever.

Perreault's statistical accomplishments are really close to Giroux. He had 5 seasons in the top 10 in points, but none higher than third, never led the league in an important category other than game-winning goals once. He was a second team All-Star twice. Giroux has 4 seasons in the top 10 (3 top 3 finishes) and could get another this year. He led the league in assists once.

I think Giroux's peak and prime are clearly better than all of these guys:
Modano 3 top 10 finishes
Federko 1 top 10 finish
Nieuwendyk 0 top 10 finishes
Oates 1 top 10 finish
Savard 3 top 10 finishes
Sundin 1 top 10 finish

If Denis Savard had been born 25 years later, would he even make the NHL? My guess is some hockey guy would see him playing at age 17 and tell him to knock off all that fancy stuff and block shots or something.

So I reckon basically Giroux is somewhere around the 16th-20h best center of the past 35 years at his peak. There are other active players and probably some recent retirees who could/should rank above Giroux, like Joe Thornton. However, there are guys like Jeremy Roenick and Bernie Nicholls, each with over 1,200 points, who should probably get in before Giroux is eligible and would rank behind him. Vinny Lecavalier? Pass.

I didn't rank Henrik Sedin; I wanna put him slightly behind Giroux but that may be severely underrating him.

 

[Appleyard]

I think in terms of guys who started their NHL careers after 1980:

Lemieux

Lindros
Crosby
Malkin
McDavid
Forsberg
Sakic
Yzerman

Thornton
Stamkos

Giroux
D. Savard
Fedorov
Hawerchuk
Datsyuk
Francis
Gilmour
Oates
Stastny
H. Sedin
Getzlaf
LaFontaine
Tavares

Sundin
Modano
Turgeon
Backstrom
Bergeron

Zetterberg
Federko
Mullen
Nicholls
Roenick
Kopitar
Spezza
E. Staal
Seguin

Toews
Demitra
Lecavalier
B. Richards
Nieuwendyk
Brind'Amour
Weight
Yashin
Damphousse
Allison
M. Savard
etc, etc.

Are probably the approximate "tiers" for me amongst the top ~50 or so (majority career) centres in terms of their primes... though I have probably missed someone!

Of course in that 4th group some arguments could be made that a few should be in group 5, one or two in group 3...

Personally I think every player in group 1-5 are HHoF worthy... and a few from group 6 have an argument. I don't think any of group 7 should be in on individual resumes...

So I would say Giroux is probably around ~15th or so... at lowest ~20th, amongst centres who started career after 1980.

 

[baudib1]

I would definitely take Gilmour/Datsyuk (forgot him!)/Fedorov over Giroux. Cool list though!

(I don't think Mullen is a center)

Nieuwendyk is a very weak HOF selection; Toews is going to skate in and I tend to think he deserves it.

Either way, Giroux is comfortably a Hall of Famer.

 

[Appleyard]

I would definitely take Gilmour/Datsyuk (forgot him!)/Fedorov over Giroux.

I can see the argument for sure, hence why in same group.

They were all better defensively for sure... but I don't think quite had the offensive impact Giroux had at a high level for as many seasons, albeit some were not too far off:

Pts finishes:
Giroux: 2, 3, 3, 10
Gilmour: 4, 5, 7
Datsyuk: 4, 4, 10
Fedorov: 2, 9

PPG finishes:
Giroux: 2, 6, 7
Gilmour: 5, 9, 9
Datsyuk: 5, 6, 8
Fedorov: 4, 7, 9

Hart finishes:
Giroux: 3, 4, 4
Gilmour: 2, 4, 5
Datsyuk: 3, 9, 10
Fedorov: 1, 5, 9

I think if you ranked the 10 best seasons vs era etc from those guys it would look like:

Fedorov 1993-94
Datsyuk 2008-09
Giroux 2017-18
Gilmour 1992-93
Datsyuk 2007-08
Fedorov 1995-96
Giroux 2011-12
Gilmour 1993-94
Giroux 2013-14
Datsyuk 2006-07


Is probably ~approx how it looks all things considered...

 

[baudib1]

I can see the argument for sure, hence why in same group.

They were all better defensively for sure... but I don't think quite had the offensive impact Giroux had at a high level for as many seasons, albeit some were not too far off:

Pts finishes:
Giroux: 2, 3, 3, 10
Gilmour: 4, 5, 7
Datsyuk: 4, 4, 10
Fedorov: 2, 9

PPG finishes:
Giroux: 2, 6, 7
Gilmour: 5, 9, 9
Datsyuk: 5, 6, 8
Fedorov: 4, 7, 9

Hart finishes:
Giroux: 3, 4, 4
Gilmour: 2, 4, 5
Datsyuk: 3, 9, 10
Fedorov: 1, 5, 9

I think if you ranked the 10 best seasons vs era etc from those guys it would look like:

Fedorov 1993-94
Datsyuk 2008-09
Giroux 2017-18
Gilmour 1992-93
Datsyuk 2007-08
Fedorov 1995-96
Giroux 2011-12
Gilmour 1993-94
Giroux 2013-14
Datsyuk 2006-07


Is probably ~approx how it looks all things considered...

I know you're quite younger than me so let me be an old fogey here.

I think Fedorov in particular is going to be historically underrated by future generations. The Red Wings were, at a minimum, a top 3 dynasty of the past 40 years and he was as essential to their success as Messier or Trottier or Guy Lafleur were to their teams. He was as talented as his Soviet linemates Bure and Mogilny; he could have easily rolled along putting up 100-120 points a year but playing in the LWL and Russian 5 meant sacrificing a lot of stats.

Look at the 2002 Wings, who put up 116 points, finished No. 2 in goals and their leading scorer only had 75. Fedorov had 68 points. His contributions that year are absolutely better than any season Denis Savard ever had (IMO).

The Russian 5 was playing Corsi hockey before anyone knew what Corsi was.

Fedorov put up a 60.7 Corsi (+7.4 REL) at age 39, his final season. In his prime, his numbers would have been ridiculous. The Red Wings destroyed the Flyers in the Finals because the Flyers literally never had the puck.

 

[Rebels57]

If Giroux wins a Cup in Philly, he is a lock.

If he doesn't, he may still get in but it will take some time.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

 

[Striiker]

What an amazing decline he's having

 

[Beef Invictus]

The "one good year" that is now 6 years long.

 

[Appleyard]

 

[TCTC]

His 6th time as an All Star. On one hand it's a testament to his extraordinary talent. On the other it shows what a weak team we've had all these years.

 

[Appleyard]

 

[Appleyard]