Claude Giroux: "Reasons to be Cheerful Part III"

[Striiker]

Doing that without PP scoring would be disgustingly impressive. Even more than last years 102 points.

 

[Appleyard]

 

[Jtown]

Giroux is the biggest problem with this team. So far konecny and Coots have shown that they are only top line players with Giroux which has led us to believe they are legit top line players. No player on this team looks good without giroux.

 

[Appleyard]

Giroux is the biggest problem with this team. So far konecny and Coots have shown that they are only top line players with Giroux which has led us to believe they are legit top line players. No player on this team looks good without giroux.

Tbf Couturier put up low-end top line numbers before playing with Giroux for 2 seasons at 5v5, with very tough minutes.

Voracek has scored at a good rate as a Flyer whoever he has played with at 5v5.
His on ice GF with Couturier, Patrick, Briere and Schenn are all very good... at similar level to with Giroux at 5v5. All over 2.5/60 when on ice.

JvR put up immense (top ~30 in NHL) 5v5 numbers in Toronto playing pretty much exclusively with Bozak, who is a solid 2C at 5v5, but that is it.


Now everyone else, I understand the scepticism to a degree. Konecny has had very good spells away from Giroux, but done most of his damage with him... even if when with him at 5v5 he has scored at a great clip.


But objectively the Flyers have at least 4x guys who are/have proven to be 1st line level at 5v5.

 

[BillDineen]

All these G stats just make me wonder how even shittier this team would have been or would be if he got hurt.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

All these G stats just make me wonder how even ****tier this team would have been or would be if he got hurt.

I mean there aren’t a ton of teams that wouldn’t be knocked down a couple pegs without their best player. It does show how lacking the depth at the nhl level is though—which is very concerning right now.

Also, I think we can clearly say that giroux is the best we’ve got, and it isn’t really close.

 

[Jtown]

Tbf Couturier put up low-end top line numbers before playing with Giroux for 2 seasons at 5v5, with very tough minutes.

Voracek has scored at a good rate as a Flyer whoever he has played with at 5v5.
His on ice GF with Couturier, Patrick, Briere and Schenn are all very good... at similar level to with Giroux at 5v5. All over 2.5/60 when on ice.

JvR put up immense (top ~30 in NHL) 5v5 numbers in Toronto playing pretty much exclusively with Bozak, who is a solid 2C at 5v5, but that is it.


Now everyone else, I understand the scepticism to a degree. Konecny has had very good spells away from Giroux, but done most of his damage with him... even if when with him at 5v5 he has scored at a great clip.


But objectively the Flyers have at least 4x guys who are/have proven to be 1st line level at 5v5.

find me a first line forward that is as bad as couturier is historically at the powerplay. Couturier is a number 1 center in the way that sean monahan is a number 1 center in the nhl. You can't win a stanley cup with either one centering your top line.

 

[Magua]

find me a first line forward that is as bad as couturier is historically at the powerplay. Couturier is a number 1 center in the way that sean monahan is a number 1 center in the nhl. You can't win a stanley cup with either one centering your top line.

Monahan is not in the same planet as Couturier is defensively. C'mon. That does matter too. Boston seemed to win with Bergeron as their 1C.

We'll just be fortunate enough to roll Hughes-Couturier down the middle, but not every team is that lucky, and that doesn't mean it couldn't be done with ample depth.

 

[Rebels57]

Can we change the name of this thread finally?

"Claude Giroux: At Least We Have Him"

 

[Jtown]

Monahan is not in the same planet as Couturier is defensively. C'mon. That does matter too. Boston seemed to win with Bergeron as their 1C.

We'll just be fortunate enough to roll Hughes-Couturier down the middle, but not every team is that lucky, and that doesn't mean it couldn't be done with ample depth.

Bergeron is a first ballot hall of fame center , who will probably go down as the the greatest two way center of all time. He was a catalyst on two gold medal olympic teams and a world cup team. He has tied for the most Selke wins of all time at 4 and lost another one by less than 1 percentage point. 4 first place 2 second selke finishes.

Sean Couturier finished 2nd in selke voting one time. Lets never compare the two again.

 

[Magua]

Bergeron is a first ballot hall of fame center , who will probably go down as the the greatest two way center of all time. He was a catalyst on two gold medal olympic teams and a world cup team. He has tied for the most Selke wins of all time at 4 and lost another one by less than 1 percentage point. 4 first place 2 second selke finishes.

Sean Couturier finished 2nd in selke voting one time. Lets never compare the two again.

Bergeron hadn't won a Selke yet when he was Couturier's age last season. He'd already won his Cup though. And Couturier was better than Bergeron last season by every measure. Couturier also did pretty okay in the playoffs last season for a non-1C.

My point wasn't that he's Bergeron's equal. But he's as close to a successor as it gets. And Bergeron has been a 60-65 point center over his prime. Defense still has tons of value with good, not elite offense. Boston also didn't have a player nearly as good as Giroux, last time I checked. They won a Cup with Lucic as their top point getter: 62 points.

 

[Jtown]

Bergeron hadn't won a Selke yet when he was Couturier's age last season. He'd already won his Cup though. And Couturier was better than Bergeron last season by every measure. Couturier also did pretty okay in the playoffs last season for a non-1C.

My point wasn't that he's Bergeron's equal. But he's as close to a successor as it gets. And Bergeron has been a 60-65 point center over his prime. Defense still has tons of value with good, not elite offense. Boston also didn't have a player nearly as good as Giroux, last time I checked. They won a Cup with Lucic as their top point getter: 62 points.

put bergeron with giroux and lets see the numbers they put up together. You can't measure Coots impact without accounting for giroux. My comparison betweeen monahan and coots had nothing to do with style of play but rather them being forced into roles in which they will never win in. Neither are cup winning 1st line centers.

 

[Magua]

put bergeron with giroux and lets see the numbers they put up together. You can't measure Coots impact without accounting for giroux. My comparison betweeen monahan and coots had nothing to do with style of play but rather them being forced into roles in which they will never win in. Neither are cup winning 1st line centers.

He plays with Marchand AND Pastrnak now. That's arguably better than Giroux+Konecny, so that's not a hypothetical we need to explore. He's not playing with fringe talent. How would Couturier do in between them? We know how Bergeron has done the last 2.5 seasons. About the same as Couturier. We also know Couturier was the leading ES scorer the 2 seasons prior to last, and he did alright in the playoffs without Giroux. There's nothing that shows he's entirely dependent on him; the easiest argument is they make each other better. And PP scoring always needs to be mentioned regarding "lines."

This is a round and round discussion, but I think I made my point already.

 

[Jtown]

He plays with Marchand AND Pastrnak now. That's arguably better than Giroux+Konecny, so that's not a hypothetical we need to explore. He's not playing with fringe talent. How would Couturier do in between them? We know how Bergeron has done the last 2.5 seasons. About the same as Couturier. We also know Couturier was the leading ES scorer the 2 seasons prior to last, and he did alright in the playoffs without Giroux. There's nothing that shows he's entirely dependent on him; the easiest argument is they make each other better. And PP scoring always needs to be mentioned regarding "lines."

This is a round and round discussion, but I think I made my point already.

giroux was the best player not named mcdavid last year. thats better than marchand and pastarnak.

this year would be a great example of how dependent coots is on giroux.

In a year in which the top center in the league is on pace for 127 points , couts is on pace for 61 points.

pp needs to be mentioned regarding lines? Historically sean couturier is among the least productive pp players in the history of the game despite ample opportunities, and the fortune of playing along one of the best pp players of his era.

 

[baudib1]

find me a first line forward that is as bad as couturier is historically at the powerplay. Couturier is a number 1 center in the way that sean monahan is a number 1 center in the nhl. You can't win a stanley cup with either one centering your top line.

Jonathan Toews. The year Kane scored 106 points and he had Panarin as LW, Toews scored 9 PP points.

 

[Jtown]

Jonathan Toews. The year Kane scored 106 points and he had Panarin as LW, Toews scored 9 PP points.

that is one year. im talking about over a career.

 

[baudib1]

that is one year. im talking about over a career.

It's not just one year. He's been pretty bad at it most of his career. The Hawks won the Cup in 2012-13 and he was even worse, with 4 PP goals and 2 assists. Toews' struggles on the PP are pretty well documented and much discussed, I'm surprised you weren't aware of it.

 

[Jtown]

It's not just one year. He's been pretty bad at it most of his career. The Hawks won the Cup in 2012-13 and he was even worse, with 4 PP goals and 2 assists. Toews' struggles on the PP are pretty well documented and much discussed, I'm surprised you weren't aware of it.

Im well aware of it.

 

[Lucky Luke]

The Gatineau Olympiques have announced that on February 20th 2019, there will be a #28 jersey retirement ceremony to be held in honour of Claude Giroux.

Should be a great evening.......really looking forward to it.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Couts can't make zone entries or beat a goalie with his shot and his game is literally built around reading the play and smart positioning. Kinda sounds like he is more suited for pk than pp.
Now for provy struggles I have no clue.

 

[Appleyard]

 

[Tripod]

Not good enough for Hakstol.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Even when I was still on the Hakstol hope train I was deeply annoyed at him taking Giroux off the PK pretty much completely.

 

[Striiker]

So when are we stripping the C?

 

[deadhead]

Tbf Couturier put up low-end top line numbers before playing with Giroux for 2 seasons at 5v5, with very tough minutes.

Voracek has scored at a good rate as a Flyer whoever he has played with at 5v5.
His on ice GF with Couturier, Patrick, Briere and Schenn are all very good... at similar level to with Giroux at 5v5. All over 2.5/60 when on ice.

JvR put up immense (top ~30 in NHL) 5v5 numbers in Toronto playing pretty much exclusively with Bozak, who is a solid 2C at 5v5, but that is it.


Now everyone else, I understand the scepticism to a degree. Konecny has had very good spells away from Giroux, but done most of his damage with him... even if when with him at 5v5 he has scored at a great clip.

But objectively the Flyers have at least 4x guys who are/have proven to be 1st line level at 5v5.

Couts is first line b/c he plays great D, was putting up great numbers with 3rd line caliber wings.
Giroux is a great LW, but no longer a 1C because he can't match up defensively against top centers.

JVR is like Voracek, not as skilled or as fast but more well rounded, better shooter and reacts quicker to the play and is more willing to hang in the slot and take the punishment to score. Both would be solid 2nd line wingers but would need a center like Couts to cover for them. Neither scores enough to compensate for their defensive limitations to be 1st line guys.

TK is a work in progress, played above his head the second half of last year, has come back to earth this year, a 2nd line caliber winger with 1st line potential, but needs more "shake and bake" and a more accurate wrist shot. But has played well anywhere he's been put this season. Hey, he's only 21.

Lindblom/Patrick just need to play together, they have shown enough to be 2nd line guys with a little more experience. Lnidblom is really underrated around here, just learning to deal with NHL speed, but a really tough, smart forward who will improve with experience. Patrick is only 20, and destined to be a 1C in a couple years as he fills out, and learns to play like a smart, physical center, he's not a Barzel, Marner type, more a Toews/Couts/Kopitar type.

If the Flyers can add a top 6 forward prospect in this year's draft, with Farabee, Frost arriving, they're set for years.
Which is why I have no issue trading Voracek and/or JVR, get me some young quick/fast talent to balance out the muckers.