Player Discussion Charles Hudon Part III

[Sorinth]

It's not irrelevant. You don't ignore the path they took to get where they are and who they are today. What has Hudon shown us in his NHL sample size at the age of 23/24? Not much and he's on the Ghetto path. What does he do aside from production on the ice? He hits a lot. Best compliments I can come up with.

Could he become a solid top 9 player? I doubt it. Lack of skating and size is going to hold him back IMO. I do value his shot and vision as an offensive player but he has not shown enough of this potential in his NHL sample size for me to keep hoping he gets to that point

I have more faith in Agostino or Chaput at this point. At least they can win a battle along the boards when they struggle to provide offense.

The OP said a player who is 24 is who they are and development doesn't matter anymore.

Either you agree with that statement or not. If you do then exhibit A of how wrong that statement is is Paul Byron who at 27 broke out and was a much better player then he was at 24.

 

[Habs Halifax]

What did Lehkonen do to follow up his "decent" first year of 28 points with -1? He put up 21 points and was -11. But aren't you glad we didn't give up on him last year when he looked meh at best.

Lehkonen has speed and did more at a younger age. There are things to like and continue the hope.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The OP said a player who is 24 is who they are and development doesn't matter anymore.

Either you agree with that statement or not. If you do then exhibit A of how wrong that statement is is Paul Byron who at 27 broke out and was a much better player then he was at 24.

Not sure I agree there is a age point we can lock down. I already told you why I lost hope in Hudon. He is not able to show me flashes of producing when given opportunity and he lacks speed and size. Its not just about age, you have to show me something for me to maintain the hope. At this stage, he hits a lot

 

[lamp9post]

It's irrelevant whether we have 10 players who are maybe better top-9 players, because by having Hudon prove he's a capable top-9 player we would have 11. And 11 is better then 10 even if it leads to one of them being traded.

Not too mention it's very strange to claim a player is who they are at 24 and then list Paul Byron who at that age was splitting his time between the AHL/NHL, was put on waivers at 26 before putting everything together with us and putting up his first 20 goal/40 point season at 27.

And don't you find it the least bit ironic that four of the players you listed were in fact outproduce by Hudon last year. So it's very debateable that those guys listed are in fact better players, and furthermore it goes to show how dumb it would be to essentially give up on a player because of a down half-year.

1. It matters because there is only so much ice-time to go around and certainly not enough to develop not-good-enough-no-longer-prospects like Hudon. If Hudon is the next to go after DLR and Scherbak I won't lose any sleep over it. He's an easily replaceable player. I'm not saying we should actively try to move Hudon, but if he needs to be waived because we have 23 better players, then so be it. In the near future we'll be better off investing that time into guys like Poehling and Suzuki.

2. There are always exceptions, but if you can't crack a mediocre team's roster at 24 time is running out.

3. Those players were Shaw, Lehkonen, Danault, and Armia. All of whom were close to Hudon's 30 points of last year and are miles better defensively. As players, I'd take them all over Hudon easily, though Shaw's contract gives me pause. Again, I'm not saying we should actively move Hudon - we should keep him to be in competition with these players for ice-time, but right now he's losing and not deserving of playing time over any of these players.

 

[Sorinth]

1. It matters because there is only so much ice-time to go around and certainly not enough to develop not-good-enough-no-longer-prospects like Hudon. If Hudon is the next to go after DLR and Scherbak I won't lose any sleep over it. He's an easily replaceable player. I'm not saying we should actively try to move Hudon, but if he needs to be waived because we have 23 better players, then so be it. In the near future we'll be better off investing that time into guys like Poehling and Suzuki.

Only so much ice time yet we are spending over 10min on each of Chaput, Agostino, and Deslaurier. That's what people don't like. Hudon not being in the top-9 is defensible, playing those 3 above him isn't.

2. There are always exceptions, but if you can't crack a mediocre team's roster at 24 time is running out.

I would argue the opposite, most NHLers improve from where they are at 24. That's why a player's prime years are often considered to be their mid-late 20s.

3. Those players were Shaw, Lehkonen, Danault, and Armia. All of whom were close to Hudon's 30 points of last year and are miles better defensively. As players, I'd take them all over Hudon easily, though Shaw's contract gives me pause. Again, I'm not saying we should actively move Hudon - we should keep him to be in competition with these players for ice-time, but right now he's losing and not deserving of playing time over any of these players.

I was going by ppg to be fair to players who missed games.
Hudon: 0.417
Tatar: 0.415
Shaw: 0.392
Armia: 0.367
Lehkonen: 0.318

None of them are miles better defensively. And the point I made stands, if in any given year it's a coin flip whether they are going to be better, then the team is better served by giving ice time to the guy who could develop into something more. It's the exact same reason Lehkonen deserved ice time despite his struggles (He wasn't close to Hudon's production).

And no one has claimed Hudon needs to displace someone in the top-9, the argument is against using guys like Chaput and Agostino over him. Hudon will develop more on the 4th line then in the pressbox. And either later this year or next year he could easily end up being one of the guys whose better then the others in the top-9.

EDIT: And yes when guys like Poehling and Suzuki are on the roster it would be stupid to play a middle-six guys ahead of them just because they are a little more polished at the NHL level. It's the exact same logic, if the difference isn't big, play the guy with potential to be better.

 

[lamp9post]

Only so much ice time yet we are spending over 10min on each of Chaput, Agostino, and Deslaurier. That's what people don't like. Hudon not being in the top-9 is defensible, playing those 3 above him isn't.



I would argue the opposite, most NHLers improve from where they are at 24. That's why a player's prime years are often considered to be their mid-late 20s.



I was going by ppg to be fair to players who missed games.
Hudon: 0.417
Tatar: 0.415
Shaw: 0.392
Armia: 0.367
Lehkonen: 0.318

None of them are miles better defensively. And the point I made stands, if in any given year it's a coin flip whether they are going to be better, then the team is better served by giving ice time to the guy who could develop into something more. It's the exact same reason Lehkonen deserved ice time despite his struggles (He wasn't close to Hudon's production).

And no one has claimed Hudon needs to displace someone in the top-9, the argument is against using guys like Chaput and Agostino over him. Hudon will develop more on the 4th line then in the pressbox. And either later this year or next year he could easily end up being one of the guys whose better then the others in the top-9.

EDIT: And yes when guys like Poehling and Suzuki are on the roster it would be stupid to play a middle-six guys ahead of them just because they are a little more polished at the NHL level. It's the exact same logic, if the difference isn't big, play the guy with potential to be better.

I think we're mostly in agreement here, but I think we have different opinions on Hudon's potential. I really don't see a lot of room for growth with this player and I'm not sure he fits on a team that is trying to play a more up-tempo style. And I'm not sure he's a fit on a 4th line on a Claude Julien-coached team.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Hudon can't play on the 4th line. No space for him in the top-9. Hudon needs good minutes and PP deployment in order for him to be effective, the players we have on the 4th line don't.

While Hudon may be a better hockey player than D-Lo, he won't help us win games. D-Lo gives the 4th line some identity, if we were to try and force Hudon into a roster spot it would likely just weaken our 3rd and 4th lines. We have players who produce better than Hudon in the top-9, and players who contribute significantly more than Hudon in a 4th line role.

Trade him for a 5th or whatever we can get, maybe Koekkoek

 

[Sorinth]

I think we're mostly in agreement here, but I think we have different opinions on Hudon's potential. I really don't see a lot of room for growth with this player and I'm not sure he fits on a team that is trying to play a more up-tempo style. And I'm not sure he's a fit on a 4th line on a Claude Julien-coached team.

I see him as a 30-40 point middle-six winger. He's already shown he can do that, he just needs to show he can do it again. That way when we do move on from him or someone else we could get something decent in return instead of losing him for nothing.

The days of different lines needing to bring different elements to the team is a dying philosophy. If Julien still thinks the perfect team has two offensive lines, a shutdown line, and an energy line then we need to move on from him sooner rather then later.

 

[Sorinth]

Hudon can't play on the 4th line. No space for him in the top-9. Hudon needs good minutes and PP deployment in order for him to be effective, the players we have on the 4th line don't.

While Hudon may be a better hockey player than D-Lo, he won't help us win games. D-Lo gives the 4th line some identity, if we were to try and force Hudon into a roster spot it would likely just weaken our 3rd and 4th lines. We have players who produce better than Hudon in the top-9, and players who contribute significantly more than Hudon in a 4th line role.

Trade him for a 5th or whatever we can get, maybe Koekkoek

Since when has being a worse hockey player helped a team win more games?

And how many games do you actually think we would lose over an 82 game season if we dressed Hudon instead of one of Agostino/Chaput/Deslaurier?

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Since when has being a worse hockey player helped a team win more games?

D-Lo is much worse in the top-9 than Hudon, but he doesn't play in the top-9. D-Lo is much better on a 4th line than Hudon, which is where the only forward opening is.

Think of it this way, if I was given the choice between playing D-Lo or Hudon for 8 minutes a game, I wouldn't choose Hudon. Hudon is completely useless in an 8min a night role, where on the otherhand that's the exact role Dlo is suited for. It's a simple issue of not needing to remove a player who fits his role in order to accommodate another player who has shown less and doesn't fit the role.

 

[Sorinth]

D-Lo is much worse in the top-9 than Hudon, but he doesn't play in the top-9. D-Lo is much better on a 4th line than Hudon, which is where the only forward opening is.

Think of it this way, if I was given the choice between playing D-Lo or Hudon for 8 minutes a game, I wouldn't choose Hudon. Hudon is completely useless in an 8min a night role, where on the otherhand that's the exact role Dlo is suited for. It's a simple issue of not needing to remove a player who fits his role in order to accommodate another player who has shown less and doesn't fit the role.

This makes no sense. How can Hudon be useless when playing 8min a night but at the same time not be useless if playing 12-13min a night?

How is Hudon's game worse when playing fewer minutes, is he somehow slower or can't shoot/pass as well?

 

[Walrus26]

4th lines get lit up all the time, and it's going to happen to this current configuration at some point as well. So give me a number, how many points/wins does this 4th line get us over an 82 game season?

1 more than we'd get with Hudon playing ;-)

 

[Sorinth]

1 more than we'd get with Hudon playing ;-)

In which case it makes way more sense to develop Hudon then it does to win 1 game that materially changes nothing for the team.

 

[lamp9post]

I see him as a 30-40 point middle-six winger. He's already shown he can do that, he just needs to show he can do it again. That way when we do move on from him or someone else we could get something decent in return instead of losing him for nothing.

The days of different lines needing to bring different elements to the team is a dying philosophy. If Julien still thinks the perfect team has two offensive lines, a shutdown line, and an energy line then we need to move on from him sooner rather then later.

I disagree. The fourth line is no longer the goon/energy line, but you need to have a 4th line that can skate, forecheck, cycle, draw penalties, and generate offensive zone faceoffs for the skilled lines. Ideally you'll have a couple 4th liners who can also PK to take pressure off your top-9. Those are all valuable skills that don't necessarily involve a whole lot of scoring, but are needed on a team. Trying to squeeze scoring out of a fourth line at the expense of the above seems foolish to me. And yes, D-Lo, Chaput, and Agostino are all better than Hudon at the kind of skills listed above that you look for from your 4th line.

 

[Sorinth]

I disagree. The fourth line is no longer the goon/energy line, but you need to have a 4th line that can skate, forecheck, cycle, draw penalties, and generate offensive zone faceoffs for the skilled lines. Ideally you'll have a couple 4th liners who can also PK to take pressure off your top-9. Those are all valuable skills that don't necessarily involve a whole lot of scoring, but are needed on a team. Trying to squeeze scoring out of a fourth line at the expense of the above seems foolish to me. And yes, D-Lo, Chaput, and Agostino are all better than Hudon at the kind of skills listed above that you look for from your 4th line.

All your lines should be able to skate, forecheck, cycle, draw penalties, and generate offensive zone faceoffs. In fact if your top lines can't do that stuff your team is in massive trouble.

And for the record, last season and this season combined Hudon has the 3rd best penalties drawn vs penalties taken stats on the Habs behind only Gallagher and Byron. Chaput is even, Agostino is at -1, and Deslaurier is at -6. Not too mention Hudon is better then those three defensively, can kill penalties, and is better at generating offensive zone faceoffs.

 

[Milhouse40]

All your lines should be able to skate, forecheck, cycle, draw penalties, and generate offensive zone faceoffs. In fact if your top lines can't do that stuff your team is in massive trouble.

And for the record, last season and this season combined Hudon has the 3rd best penalties drawn vs penalties taken stats on the Habs behind only Gallagher and Byron. Chaput is even, Agostino is at -1, and Deslaurier is at -6. Not too mention Hudon is better then those three defensively, can kill penalties, and is better at generating offensive zone faceoffs.

I would agree with some of your points but Hudon is a not better than them defensively, not by a long shot and that's mostly why he's not playing. To begin with, Hudon is - 8...by far the worst forward on this team. There's only 3 forwards in the minus this season so far (D-lo at -3 and Peca at -6).

Since last season, Hudon played a whopping 0:18 of PK....he can't kill penalties.
Hudon has skills, but his defensive play is the reason why he can't crack that line up.

 

[gillyguzzler]

D-Lo is much worse in the top-9 than Hudon, but he doesn't play in the top-9. D-Lo is much better on a 4th line than Hudon, which is where the only forward opening is.

Think of it this way, if I was given the choice between playing D-Lo or Hudon for 8 minutes a game, I wouldn't choose Hudon. Hudon is completely useless in an 8min a night role, where on the otherhand that's the exact role Dlo is suited for. It's a simple issue of not needing to remove a player who fits his role in order to accommodate another player who has shown less and doesn't fit the role.

Mostly agree but Hudon would be useful in a top 9 role once the inevitable injuries happen.

 

[Sorinth]

I would agree with some of your points but Hudon is a not better than them defensively, not by a long shot and that's mostly why he's not playing. To begin with, Hudon is - 8...by far the worst forward on this team. There's only 3 forwards in the minus this season so far (D-lo at -3 and Peca at -6).

Since last season, Hudon played a whopping 0:18 of PK....he can't kill penalties.
Hudon has skills, but his defensive play is the reason why he can't crack that line up.

+/- is a terrible way of measuring defensive ability, and just because a player doesn't get PK time it doesn't mean they can't. Therrien refused to use Subban on the PK, yet he was our top penalty killer under Martin, and is again a top PKer for Nashville.

Hudon struggled badly this year, that's why he's out of the lineup. Until he finds his game I wouldn't really rely on him defensively too much, but he should still be getting games so that he can work through his struggles and get back to last years form if not improve upon it. Let's not forget he was fine defensively last year playing on what was essentially a shutdown line with Plekanec.

 

[1909]

+/- is a terrible way of measuring defensive ability, and just because a player doesn't get PK time it doesn't mean they can't. Therrien refused to use Subban on the PK, yet he was our top penalty killer under Martin, and is again a top PKer for Nashville.

Hudon struggled badly this year, that's why he's out of the lineup. Until he finds his game I wouldn't really rely on him defensively too much, but he should still be getting games so that he can work through his struggles and get back to last years form if not improve upon it. Let's not forget he was fine defensively last year playing on what was essentially a shutdown line with Plekanec.

1- He had other d-men capable of doing the job
2- He did not want PK to block shots.

 

[Sorinth]

1- He had other d-men capable of doing the job
2- He did not want PK to block shots.

Which is irrelevant to the point that just because a player doesn't get PK time doesn't mean they aren't able to do it.

 

[1909]

Which is irrelevant to the point that just because a player doesn't get PK time doesn't mean they aren't able to do it.

PK had plenty of time playing 5 on 5 and playing PP.

 

[Agalloch]

There is a holiday trade freeze beginning Dec. 19th until Dec. 28.

We will need to trade or put someone on waivers before that to let Armia comes back... My guess is Hudon is out soon.

 

[WeThreeKings]

There is a holiday trade freeze beginning Dec. 19th until Dec. 28.

We will need to trade or put someone on waivers before that to let Armia comes back... My guess is Hudon is out soon.

Gotta love losing Scherbak and Hudon to protect AHL fodder in Chaput and Agostino.

 

[De Montreal]

There is a holiday trade freeze beginning Dec. 19th until Dec. 28.

We will need to trade or put someone on waivers before that to let Armia comes back... My guess is Hudon is out soon.

Armia probably dont come back until Dec 31 I'd say, though.

 

[Agalloch]

Armia probably dont come back until Dec 31 I'd say, though.

His injury was 4 to 6 weeks and it's been 5 weeks now. Based on this, he comes back the Dec. 21-28, right in the trade freeze.