Value of: Carolina Defensemen

[Gaunce4gm]

Gaunce, Pedan, 7th for Ryan Murphy

 

[belair]

You know, before you try posting such a creative and sarcastic comment like this, you might want to get the right player. The whole discussion was Pesce, not Slavin.

Which is why I edited it before you responded.

But like I said, same difference.

 

[Brock Radunske]

Fleury for kapanen?

Canes won't like it and it doesn't do anything for the Leafs. Just another LHD to toss on the pile.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Which is why I edited it before you responded.

But like I said, same difference.

Meh, you tried being a smart ass with your "Enjoy our sophomore slump" and got the name wrong, only to edit it later. My post still applies.

And do you really buy into the "sophomore slump" and think it applies to everyone universally?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Canes won't like it and it doesn't do anything for the Leafs. Just another LHD to toss on the pile.

If it was a better FWD prospect, I'd like it, but not Kapanen. I, admittedly, could be very wrong as I don't see enough of him, but I see Kapanen likely as a bottom 6 forward and the Canes have a lot of guys that fit into that category. I like some aspects of his game like his speed, but am concerned that he doesn't have enough skill to be a top 6 forward.

I think Fleury will be a top 4 D. Maybe it's homerism, but I'm confident a guy his size, with his skating ability and his skill will be able to achieve that. Maybe it won't be with Carolina with Hanifin and Slavin on board, but then I'd want them to let him prove himself in the NHL then worry about moving him.

 

[Homesick]

Spoken like someone who has never seen Pesce play.

Pesce would cost Eberle at a minimum and I doubt the Canes even move him for that given their lack of RHD depth.

A non-elite but very good young veteran top-6 W...yeah, that's totally not worth a young, physical, established two-way top-4 RHD.

Eberle is an established 60 point 1st line RW.
As for Pesce -
69 games played isn't establishing anything
Ice time he was #5 on a team not known to be deep defensively
16 points does not tell me he has much of a two way game
30 hits and zero fights is laughable for a physical defenseman

Nothing he does backs up your lofty claims. So keep until reality sets in

 

[Brock Radunske]

If it was a better FWD prospect, I'd like it, but not Kapanen. I, admittedly, could be very wrong as I don't see enough of him, but I see Kapanen likely as a bottom 6 forward and the Canes have a lot of guys that fit into that category. I like some aspects of his game like his speed, but am concerned that he doesn't have enough skill to be a top 6 forward.

I think Fleury will be a top 4 D. Maybe it's homerism, but I'm confident a guy his size, with his skating ability and his skill will be able to achieve that. Maybe it won't be with Carolina with Hanifin and Slavin on board, but then I'd want them to let him prove himself in the NHL then worry about moving him.

Kapanen has all the tools....we're just trying to find out if he has the toolbox to go with it.
I really like Fleury and my comment wasn't meant to bash him. I agree that he'll be a top 4 guy someday but right now he'd be behind Rielly and Gardiner for top 4 LHD spots and he'd be fighting it out with Dermott and Neilsen.
The Leafs should ONLY be looking at RHD, even if there are potentially some nice LHD available like Fleury.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Kapanen has all the tools....we're just trying to find out if he has the toolbox to go with it.
I really like Fleury and my comment wasn't meant to bash him. I agree that he'll be a top 4 guy someday but right now he'd be behind Rielly and Gardiner for top 4 LHD spots and he'd be fighting it out with Dermott and Neilsen.
The Leafs should ONLY be looking at RHD, even if there are potentially some nice LHD available like Fleury.

Yeah, I didn't take it as you bashing Fleury and understand your concern about LHD.

 

[CanadienShark]

Fleury for McCarron and hudon.

As a fan of neither team, that's pretty bad for the Habs.

 

[Brock Radunske]

Yeah, I didn't take it as you bashing Fleury and understand your concern about LHD.

Haha, good.
I see you've upgraded from Anton to Aho.

 

[aufheben]

Eberle is an established 60 point 1st line RW.
As for Pesce -
69 games played isn't establishing anything
Ice time he was #5 on a team not known to be deep defensively
16 points does not tell me he has much of a two way game
30 hits and zero fights is laughable for a physical defenseman

Nothing he does backs up your lofty claims. So keep until reality sets in

You have to put up 3,000 points a season to be a 1st line player on HF.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

You have to put up 3,000 points a season to be a 1st line player on HF.

Unless you are on the Canes in which you only need 40 points to be a 1st line player. I'd like to say I'm being sarcastic, but unfortunately, it's true.

 

[aufheben]

Unless you are on the Canes in which you only need 40 points to be a 1st line player. I'd like to say I'm being sarcastic, but unfortunately, it's true.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'm not saying Pesce is worth Eberle,, because IMO, he isn't so let's get that out of the way, but I feel it's important to put context into your "stats" based post (above).

Eberle is an established 60 point 1st line RW.
As for Pesce -
69 games played isn't establishing anything
Ice time he was #5 on a team not known to be deep defensively

In fairness, the Canes were anything BUT "deep defensively" to start the season. Faulk (yes), Hainsey (who nobody wanted after the lockout), Murphy (who sucks, got injured, and couldn't hold an NHL job), Liles (who was a buyout candidate in Toronto) Michal Jordan (AHL Fodder), Hanifin (18 year old rookie who got sheltered minutes) and Wizniewski (who blew out his knee on his first shift. Pesce and Slavin were thrown to the wolves on a team that had a very weak defense. Yes, Pesce needs to prove it again as 69 games isn't enough, but let's not act like he got sheltered minutes on a deep team, because that's not the case.

16 points does not tell me he has much of a two way game

Actually, 16 points for a rookie with 69 games, and 5th on PP TOI/GP is pretty reasonable . Pesce played well on PP, PK and ES so he did do well as a 2-way player. YES, he needs to back it up and expand on it. No arguments there.

30 hits and zero fights is laughable for a physical defenseman

That's stats watching 101. Pesce's strength was that he was extremely strong along the boards. Won a number of battles down low. Did he give bone-crushing hits? Did he fight? No, but he was very physical down low and along the boards.

 

[Homesick]

Unless you are on the Canes in which you only need 40 points to be a 1st line player. I'd like to say I'm being sarcastic, but unfortunately, it's true.

You only need a .900 SV% on the Oilers to be a Vezina candidate

 

[Homesick]

I'm not saying Pesce is worth Eberle,, because IMO, he isn't so let's get that out of the way, but I feel it's important to put context into your "stats" based post (above).

The NHL doesn't track "Hits" as crushing guys into the boards. Its physically removing the player from the puck which you described as proof of his physicality but the NHL disagrees

 

[Shootertooter]

Pesce would cost Eberle at a minimum and I doubt the Canes even move him for that given their lack of RHD depth.

Oh, just stop.

 

[zar]

Spoken like someone who has never seen Pesce play.

Pesce would cost Eberle at a minimum and I doubt the Canes even move him for that given their lack of RHD depth.

Seriously.

You could have said that you have no interest whatsoever in Yakupov... you could also say that the Oilers do not have a player that they would be willing to part with for Pesce... but to say it would cost the Oilers Eberle.

If you are looking for a young similar aged forward with top 6 potential but not a blue chip prospect. like Draisaitl, then the Oilers only have one player to offer, Yakupov... but I totally get why teams are reluctant to take a chance on Yak (he has been and continues to be mismanaged). To me Pesce looks like he is a RH Brandon Davidson, one year behind in development.

 

[GoldiFox]

Eberle is an established 60 point 1st line RW.
As for Pesce -
69 games played isn't establishing anything
Ice time he was #5 on a team not known to be deep defensively
16 points does not tell me he has much of a two way game
30 hits and zero fights is laughable for a physical defenseman

Nothing he does backs up your lofty claims. So keep until reality sets in

I never said Pesce was established. Everyone is tying my post to another posters and acting like they are a pair.

Let me put it another way, there is nothing on the Oilers that the Canes move Pesce for outside of a top-line winger. Eberle is the only one who fits. Yakupov or Pouliot don't come close to enough value to pull Pesce.

Pesce is a 6'3", 200 lbs, 21 year old D who transitioned from the NCAA straight to the NHL and played all-situation top-4 minutes for the Canes last year. He is cost-controlled for the next 6 years. They aren't shipping him off right now for his "fair value". Which is a debatable amount, as I'm willing to bet that (outside Canes fans) the combined total of games that posters in this thread have watched of Pesce is less than 10. Lot of Pesce HockeyDB "experts" coming out of the woodwork to say what is and isn't his value.

 

[spockBokk]

I wonder how long it will take for a certain poster who's a Ranger fan hijacks this thread with ridiculous proposals involving half of CAR's young d men and next decade's 2nd rd picks for Stepan and NYR's next decade's 3rd picks....

Back on topic...I don't see GMRF moving any young D not named Carrick or Murphy without giving them another year to see what he really has. A homegrown top-4 of Faulk, Slavin, Pesce and Hanifin is too enticing. But...I expect one if not both of Hanifin and Slavin to really blossom into top tier d men, so it's going to be really tough to keep them plus Pesce, especially with all of their ELCs expiring in 2 years.

From all accounts, the org is really high on Fleury, so I don't see him being moved either, except in the case of overpayment. At the moment CAR has an embarrassment of riches on on the blue-line, and no real reason to trade anyone of their young d for anything less than overpayments.

 

[Mister Ed]

Ryan Murphy for Tomas Jurco.

Jurco is stuck on the depth chart and Murphy would be a viable option, better than Sproul/Ericsson at the moment.

 

[NotOpie]

Two other good to very good defensive prospects on the Canes get short shrift here. Trevor Carrick is developing quite well and may likely be the "next man up" in case of an injury or a good showing in camp (as opposed to the oft mentioned Fleury).

Jack of all trades, RHD Roland McKeown is also criminally overlooked. Kingston's graduating team captain is a smooth skating smart player with good size and offensive upside. In truth he had the better year in comparison to Fleury.

The point is that now the Canes have added Jake Bean as well and they are slowly building an enviable stable of blueliners. I don't believe that any of the young defensemen get traded this season, but there will likely be some movement sooner rather than later on the back end.

 

[Readytostart]

Two other good to very good defensive prospects on the Canes get short shrift here. Trevor Carrick is developing quite well and may likely be the "next man up" in case of an injury or a good showing in camp (as opposed to the oft mentioned Fleury).

Jack of all trades, RHD Roland McKeown is also criminally overlooked. Kingston's graduating team captain is a smooth skating smart player with good size and offensive upside. In truth he had the better year in comparison to Fleury.

The point is that now the Canes have added Jake Bean as well and they are slowly building an enviable stable of blueliners. I don't believe that any of the young defensemen get traded this season, but there will likely be some movement sooner rather than later on the back end.

After being so highly touted in his draft -1 year and seeing his stock sink significantly during his draft year, it's not surprising that people don't think highly of him as a prospect. Just look to Brandon Saad as a positive example of possibly being better than people think. Of course, the counter to that is John McFarland, Nick Ebert, and a thousand other highly touted juniors whose stock sank like a stone.

 

[MinJaBen]

Not named Faulk or Hanafin

• Haydn Fleury
• Ryan Murphy
• Brett Pesce
• Jaccob Slavin
• Any others I may be forgetting

I think you might get quite a few Canes fans that think you should substitute Slavin for Hanifin. Hanifin is younger and has the pedigree, but Slavin clearly outplayed him last year and I'd bet stays better than him for quite some time. At the very least, I'd put Hanifin in the "not available" category with the other two for now.

 

[Xspyrit]

But if the Canes really have so many elite/top pairing guys, I question why they had a -28 goal differential and missed the playoffs for the seventh consecutive year. A mystery, that.

Weird, every time I hear about Canes D-men, I ask myself the same question.